Arelith

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:34 am**

garrbear758 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:58 am I'd be good with something like that for all casters if it completely replaced resting for spells. Casters as it is can easily game their rest meter / alcoholism to rest 2 or 3 times in one dungeon, allowing them to consistently use their strongest spells. The current rest system gives them the same sustain as a mundane without having any of the drawbacks of being a mundane.

It's always has been a problem on Areltih. My first thought upon joining the server (well, maybe not the first one) was "wait, hours are 6 minutes here?" and I was already used to servers with rest management. I think, when you can just solo as a caster, and rest without any real issue during dungeon content by yourself then maybe it's not the best design? On the other hand, casters should be able to solo to some degree, and any serious tax on resting would shut that down entirely and we dont want that so I guess all I'm saying is that I agree with you.

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:43 am**

Summon, buff. Save big spells for bosses. You don't need to abuse alcohol and rest in dungeons. Last time I played a wizard they only rested when the clock ticked it down and it was fine. Perhaps more at lower levels but once you hit your stride you don't /need/ to anymore.

Alcohol abuse was reserved for crossing servers or other annoying jiggery pokery that meant I had to recast everything.

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:53 pm**

Alcohol abuse is necessary. It is the only way to mitigate the many bugs/hiccups that happen.

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:41 pm**

CNS wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:43 am Summon, buff. Save big spells for bosses. You don't need to abuse alcohol and rest in dungeons. Last time I played a wizard they only rested when the clock ticked it down and it was fine. Perhaps more at lower levels but once you hit your stride you don't /need/ to anymore.

Alcohol abuse was reserved for crossing servers or other annoying jiggery pokery that meant I had to recast everything.

It makes a lot of sense that you wouldnt need to rest a lot or at all within dungeons once you're already epic level. The problem is, that you get there more easily than mundanes and that shouldnt be the case. I dont know what we're playing anymore but I recall in D&D in general mages level slower or just have much weaker starting point because they end up so powerful. It used to be like this in Arelith before all summon tiers were made comparable to dungeon content in relative level range.

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:44 pm**

Currently, the only reason to specialize is the additional spell slots. A great majority of specialists thus don't select their school of specialization for its RP, but rather the school of spells they lose, often omitting Enchantment. The reason is simple: The school does not provide much utility for casters that do not intend to take the spell foci. I've been giving this situation some thought in the past few days, and came up with a few potential changes that would create a greater incentive to play other specialist wizards.

Essentially, in addition to the usual bonus spell slots, all specialists could gain the following:
- At Wizard level 1, specialists receive a thematic, passive bonus related to their school of choice.
- At Wizard level 10, specialists receive Arcane Defense against their chosen school for free.
- At Wizard level 15, specialists receive a “signature spell” of their chosen school. They can cast this spell on a 3-minute cooldown.
- Upon taking the GSF and ESF feats in their chosen school, they gain additional thematic benefits in addition to the usual GSF/ESF bonuses.

Here is some ideas for the respective spell schools I've come up with. I've tried to balance these things by the schools specialists lose access to (details below):

Abjuration (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: +1/+2 CL against dispels, unlocked at Wizard levels 20 and 28.
- Signature spell: Globe of invulnerability
- GSF bonus: +2 to saving throws against spells
- ESF bonus: +1 dispel CL and/or +2 breached effects for Greater Spell Breach and Disjunction

Conjuration (opposed by Transmutation)
- Passive bonus: summon tier increase (works like Animal domain; GSF will provide stat bonuses rather than further increasing summon tier)
- Signature spell: Acid fog
- GSF bonus: Alignment divergence is 10% less likely to result in a hostile summon.
- ESF bonus: 25% chance to summon an elemental monolith with Summon Creature IX.

Divination (opposed by Illusion)
- Passive bonus: The truesight effect of the True Seeing spell lasts 1 round longer when cast with Extend Spell (allowing for a maximum of 5 rounds with ESF: Divination).
- Signature spell: True Seeing (Note: cooldown variant cannot be extended)
- GSF bonus: Clairaudience/clairvoyance duration increases to turns per level
- ESF bonus: Scrying duration doubled and scrying harder to detect for other diviners

Enchantment (opposed by Illusion)
- Passive bonus: Persuade bonus equal to Wizard level/3
- Signature spell: Dominate Person
- GSF bonus: Dominate Person/Monster duration increases to hours per level
- ESF bonus: Humanoid creatures become immune to other caster’s mind-affecting spells as long as they are dominated.

Evocation (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: IGMS can hit single targets with up to 11 missiles instead of 10
- Signature spell: Isaac's greater missile storm
- GSF bonus: +1 to Evocation spell DCs
- ESF bonus: Evocation spells no longer consume spell components

Illusion (opposed by Enchantment)
- Passive bonus: Bluff/Perform bonus equal to Wizard level/3
- Signature spell: Shadow Conjuration
- GSF bonus: Can mimic a single stat even without skill investment. Also gains a +15 bonus to all hidden skill checks related to mimicking abilities. (Does not apply to disguises.)
- ESF bonus: Invisibility spell duration increases to turns per level.

Necromancy (opposed by Divination)
- Passive bonus: +2 to Undead Caster Level (earlier access to more powerful undead)
- Signature spell: Circle of death
- GSF bonus: Regular GSF: Necromancy summon stat bonuses doubled
- ESF bonus: 25% chance to create two Dread Mummies with Mummy Dust instead of one.

Transmutation (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: animal spells are automatically maximized
- Signature spell: Haste
- GSF bonus: +1 to all animal spells (allowing for a reliable +8 with ESF, no metamagic required)
- ESF bonus: unlocks Epic Caster Level scaling for the Mordenkainen's Sword summon.

As mentioned above, these bonuses have been tailored to the currently available spells in every single school and the consequential "sacrifice" omitting this school implies:
- Omitting Conjuration (most summon spells, Maze, Cloudkill etc.) is a high investment, the specialist boons and signature spells are thus a bit more powerful.
- Omitting Divination (True Seeing), Illusion (concealment spells, Shadow Shield) or Transmutation (animal buff spells) is a medium investment that can partially be negated with wands, the specialist additions are limited to specific, mostly PvE-focused bonuses.
- Omitting Enchantment is a minor investment often already justified by the extra, free spell slots. Boons and signature spells in this category are meant to be flavor-additions that don’t have much effect on class balance.
Furthermore, in order to prevent 3-level Wizard dips, passive bonuses should scale with Wizard levels, be dependent on Wizard feats and/or require a more significant level investment to provide their full benefits.

I believe these changes would make all specialist wizards more appealing without buffing the class as a whole.

Posted: **Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:34 pm**

Kalopsia wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:44 pm
Currently, the only reason to specialize is the additional spell slots. A great majority of specialists thus don't select their school of specialization for its RP, but rather the school of spells they lose, often omitting Enchantment. The reason is simple: The school does not provide much utility for casters that do not intend to take the spell foci. I've been giving this situation some thought in the past few days, and came up with a few potential changes that would create a greater incentive to play other specialist wizards.

Essentially, in addition to the usual bonus spell slots, all specialists could gain the following:
- At Wizard level 1, specialists receive a thematic, passive bonus related to their school of choice.
- At Wizard level 10, specialists receive Arcane Defense against their chosen school for free.
- At Wizard level 15, specialists receive a “signature spell” of their chosen school. They can cast this spell on a 3-minute cooldown.
- Upon taking the GSF and ESF feats in their chosen school, they gain additional thematic benefits in addition to the usual GSF/ESF bonuses.

Here is some ideas for the respective spell schools I've come up with. I've tried to balance these things by the schools specialists lose access to (details below):

Abjuration (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: +1/+2 CL against dispels, unlocked at Wizard levels 20 and 28.
- Signature spell: Globe of invulnerability
- GSF bonus: +2 to saving throws against spells
- ESF bonus: +1 dispel CL and/or +2 breached effects for Greater Spell Breach and Disjunction

Conjuration (opposed by Transmutation)
- Passive bonus: summon tier increase (works like Animal domain; GSF will provide stat bonuses rather than further increasing summon tier)
- Signature spell: Acid fog
- GSF bonus: Alignment divergence is 10% less likely to result in a hostile summon.
- ESF bonus: 25% chance to summon an elemental monolith with Summon Creature IX.

Divination (opposed by Illusion)
- Passive bonus: The truesight effect of the True Seeing spell lasts 1 round longer when cast with Extend Spell (allowing for a maximum of 5 rounds with ESF: Divination).
- Signature spell: True Seeing (Note: cooldown variant cannot be extended)
- GSF bonus: Clairaudience/clairvoyance duration increases to turns per level
- ESF bonus: Scrying duration doubled and scrying harder to detect for other diviners

Enchantment (opposed by Illusion)
- Passive bonus: Persuade bonus equal to Wizard level/3
- Signature spell: Dominate Person
- GSF bonus: Dominate Person/Monster duration increases to hours per level
- ESF bonus: Humanoid creatures become immune to other caster’s mind-affecting spells as long as they are dominated.

Evocation (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: IGMS can hit single targets with up to 11 missiles instead of 10
- Signature spell: Isaac's greater missile storm
- GSF bonus: +1 to Evocation spell DCs
- ESF bonus: Evocation spells no longer consume spell components

Illusion (opposed by Enchantment)
- Passive bonus: Bluff/Perform bonus equal to Wizard level/3
- Signature spell: Shadow Conjuration
- GSF bonus: Can mimic a single stat even without skill investment. Also gains a +15 bonus to all hidden skill checks related to mimicking abilities. (Does not apply to disguises.)
- ESF bonus: Invisibility spell duration increases to turns per level.

Necromancy (opposed by Divination)
- Passive bonus: +2 to Undead Caster Level (earlier access to more powerful undead)
- Signature spell: Circle of death
- GSF bonus: Regular GSF: Necromancy summon stat bonuses doubled
- ESF bonus: 25% chance to create two Dread Mummies with Mummy Dust instead of one.

Transmutation (opposed by Conjuration)
- Passive bonus: animal spells are automatically maximized
- Signature spell: Haste
- GSF bonus: +1 to all animal spells (allowing for a reliable +8 with ESF, no metamagic required)
- ESF bonus: unlocks Epic Caster Level scaling for the Mordenkainen's Sword summon.

As mentioned above, these bonuses have been tailored to the currently available spells in every single school and the consequential "sacrifice" omitting this school implies:
- Omitting Conjuration (most summon spells, Maze, Cloudkill etc.) is a high investment, the specialist boons and signature spells are thus a bit more powerful.
- Omitting Divination (True Seeing), Illusion (concealment spells, Shadow Shield) or Transmutation (animal buff spells) is a medium investment that can partially be negated with wands, the specialist additions are limited to specific, mostly PvE-focused bonuses.
- Omitting Enchantment is a minor investment often already justified by the extra, free spell slots. Boons and signature spells in this category are meant to be flavor-additions that don’t have much effect on class balance.
Furthermore, in order to prevent 3-level Wizard dips, passive bonuses should scale with Wizard levels, be dependent on Wizard feats and/or require a more significant level investment to provide their full benefits.

I believe these changes would make all specialist wizards more appealing without buffing the class as a whole.

I think I can agree with some of these ideas. But I would say that additional boons for wizard specializations would be easier for the community to swallow if the boons were based around buffing a party rather than buffing themselves.

It seems recently wizards have been entirely a class buff meant to buff just the wizards. I think we need more specialist Utilities around more party play than solo play.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:46 am**

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:57 am
...Wizards are considered the most powerful class on Arelith...

I'd like to see a poll answer this among the perception of the public once and for all. I think people use this statement a bunch whenever recommendations or such is given.
I'd imagine any recommendations for paladins, rogues, bards, or any other class might have this crop up in there as well.
Even for (insert your perceived worst class here), what!?

Time to settle it once and for all. Someone make an all class inclusive poll? I'm new and would forget a bunch hehe. I've actually heard someone say like 100% druids are the best by so much so far out into orbit above everyone else.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:50 am**

Only brainstorming now but, what about taking away the loss of a spell school when you specialize so every vanilla wizard could have a specialty for flavor (getting that extra spell per level for no loss of school) and no vanilla would ever need to be a generalist. Wild mages and spellswords would still have to be generalists.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:28 am**

I can't speak for the other devs, but right now, the only thing I would be willing to do to casters is nerf them.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:51 am**

Kalopsia spent a lot of time on those suggested school perks, and I think after reading through them they make some really good compromises to losing specific spell schools. I don't really see them as a buff, as typically a caster will lose a lot from giving up spell schools like conjuration, divination, illusion and transmutation.

I will say that the purposed L10 feat is powerful specifically for the abjuration school, but other than that there doesn't seem to be any great advantage to having +2 against necromancy.

If you really want to nerf casters, the answer is simple: lower the lore cost for mords.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:17 am**

I like Kalospia's idea, though I note that some of the schools are clearly stronger than others, especially transmutation (the transmuter can just grab necro focuses and summon undead). Improved Invisibility might make a more appealing signature spell for Illusion than Shadow Conjuration.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:10 am**

Dr. B wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:17 am I like Kalospia's idea, though I note that some of the schools are clearly stronger than others, especially transmutation (the transmuter can just grab necro focuses and summon undead). Improved Invisibility might make a more appealing signature spell for Illusion than Shadow Conjuration.

Thank you!
I didn't really want to give Illusion a significant signature spell as it's the go to school everyone specializes in if they're just after the bonus spells :) Shadow Conjuration can still be quite powerful nowadays, with the two summoned shadows or a higher DC grease.
Generally, the lost schools were my primary consideration when selecting these perks.

And it's true, people losing Conjuration can still summon undead. They do so at the risk of being spotted by good-aligned people though, which makes doing so mostly an option in the Underdark. And even there, they'd be missing out on Cloudkill that'd boost their effective necromancy DCs by quite a bit.
My balance consideration for Transmutation was that people are generally sitting at +12 to all stats in PvP anyway, and Wizards can already reach the +20 saves cap rather easily. Essentially it'd just let them buff people and their summons a bit more effectively with wands. Same goes for the Haste on cooldown: In PvP the first thing they'll cast is still going to be an Extended Mass Haste to buff everyone else.

Of course some of these suggested changes could be adjusted. I've received a message or two about the proposed True Seeing on cooldown for diviners. But even then, these characters are trading access to Shadow Shield (scrolls won't work, only rods might) for what is essentially a True Seeing scroll every 3min, so it doesn't seem that crazy.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:40 am**

garrbear758 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:28 am I can't speak for the other devs, but right now, the only thing I would be willing to do to casters is nerf them.

I'm very glad to hear that. Not that I expect anything from anyone but still glad to hear that. I will echo Ork. Lowering the lore requirement for Mord (imo, should be lowered for levels 7 and 8 too) will put a mild, balanced and measured nerf to all casters at once and it would be really awesome imo.

I like Kalopsia's ideas. They dont really effect the 'meta' to either direction. They just make some really bad choices less bad. Some of them are even looking super fun.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:50 pm**

Dont get me wrong Kalopsia's idea is awesome and she/he clearly put a lot of thought into it, but I personally would much rather focus my time on classes that havent already gotten things like a bunch of new spells or that dont have sweet rp tools like the GSF/ESF abilities.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:20 pm**

garrbear758 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:50 pm Dont get me wrong Kalopsia's idea is awesome and she/he clearly put a lot of thought into it, but I personally would much rather focus my time on classes that havent already gotten things like a bunch of new spells or that dont have sweet rp tools like the GSF/ESF abilities.

That's definitely a good approach. Even though my suggestion may have a small impact on current class balance, it would likely cause people to create more Wizards just to try out the new features, which seems like something the server doesn't quite need at this point. So, as you've stated above, the focus should likely be on giving mundane characters some sort of buff.

In fact, I've made two (already approved) suggestions that'd grant mundanes additional counterplay against mages, which could be a good place to start: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25807 and viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25716

I could definitely come up with other, more thematic ideas, so if you or another developer would like some inspiration or feedback, feel free to message me here or on Discord (Kalopsia#9683). I'd be happy to help! :)

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:18 pm**

The general ideas are great. But I would probably give each 2 banned schools. With the additional spells, it’s less impactful to only limit one school

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:05 pm**

Kalopsia wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:20 pm
garrbear758 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:50 pm Dont get me wrong Kalopsia's idea is awesome and she/he clearly put a lot of thought into it, but I personally would much rather focus my time on classes that havent already gotten things like a bunch of new spells or that dont have sweet rp tools like the GSF/ESF abilities.
That's definitely a good approach. Even though my suggestion may have a small impact on current class balance, it would likely cause people to create more Wizards just to try out the new features, which seems like something the server doesn't quite need at this point. So, as you've stated above, the focus should likely be on giving mundane characters some sort of buff.

In fact, I've made two (already approved) suggestions that'd grant mundanes additional counterplay against mages, which could be a good place to start: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25807 and viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25716

I could definitely come up with other, more thematic ideas, so if you or another developer would like some inspiration or feedback, feel free to message me here or on Discord (Kalopsia#9683). I'd be happy to help!

Awesome thanks for linking. Its easy to miss stuff digging through the suggestions

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:41 pm**

Kalopsia wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:44 pm
Enchantment (opposed by Illusion)
- ESF bonus: Humanoid creatures become immune to other caster’s mind-affecting spells as long as they are dominated.

What does this mean? The way I see it if someone casts dominate person on an ally of mine I can't use clarity or mind blank to have it go away. What would be the available counter to someone stunning a PC ally? As far as I can see it would only be greater restoration.
Maybe it should also be immune to removal by dispel?

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:53 pm**

Aeralad wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:41 pm
Kalopsia wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:44 pm
Enchantment (opposed by Illusion)
- ESF bonus: Humanoid creatures become immune to other caster’s mind-affecting spells as long as they are dominated.

What does this mean? The way I see it if someone casts dominate person on an ally of mine I can't use clarity or mind blank to have it go away. What would be the available counter to someone stunning a PC ally? As far as I can see it would only be greater restoration.
Maybe it should also be immune to removal by dispel?

Good point! The thought behind this was PvE-focused. Currently Elementals and other summoned creatures are either already mind immune, or can be made so with buffs. The suggestion above would make dominated creatures similarly resistant against mind spells in PvE, making them a viable option against creatures that spam mind spells.

If this gets implemented, it should most certainly be limited to dominated NPCs, with PCs remaining unaffected by the change.

Posted: **Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:36 pm**

I also sort of agree with Dr.B about the just summoning undead when on one side of the world and sacking conj. It seems to promote specialization, and there seems to be no reason to be a generalist.
I don't really agree with the idea that people will by default lose enchantment anyway. I'd rather have the cool dominate/stun effects myself. Maybe I don't see the reason why or I'm alone though.
I'd probably use undead on one side of the factions/world anyway, and this would just be giving those people a bonus to doing so.

Posted: **Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:54 am**

I don't really agree with the idea that people will by default lose enchantment anyway. I'd rather have the cool dominate/stun effects myself.

Enchantment is pretty much useless at epic level, everything will either be immune or so frigging resistant to it that using such spells becomes a major gamble... and in epic level play gambles are unwise since even a minor mistake can get you killed.

Posted: **Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:59 am**

Exordius wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:54 am
I don't really agree with the idea that people will by default lose enchantment anyway. I'd rather have the cool dominate/stun effects myself.
Enchantment is pretty much useless at epic level, everything will either be immune or so frigging resistant to it that using such spells becomes a major gamble... and in epic level play gambles are unwise since even a minor mistake can get you killed.

There's always that one mob with low will save and it's usually the beefy one that would make an excellent tank for your party. Or at least it used to be a strategy. I dont know any enchanters anymore.

Posted: **Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:51 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:59 am
Exordius wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:54 am
I don't really agree with the idea that people will by default lose enchantment anyway. I'd rather have the cool dominate/stun effects myself.
Enchantment is pretty much useless at epic level, everything will either be immune or so frigging resistant to it that using such spells becomes a major gamble... and in epic level play gambles are unwise since even a minor mistake can get you killed.
There's always that one mob with low will save and it's usually the beefy one that would make an excellent tank for your party. Or at least it used to be a strategy. I dont know any enchanters anymore.

Or that one mob with devast

Posted: **Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:00 pm**

Exordius wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:54 am
I don't really agree with the idea that people will by default lose enchantment anyway. I'd rather have the cool dominate/stun effects myself.
Enchantment is pretty much useless at epic level, everything will either be immune or so frigging resistant to it that using such spells becomes a major gamble... and in epic level play gambles are unwise since even a minor mistake can get you killed.

That's the case at level 30 and the most difficult end game content tends to be mind immune or resistant but domination is still a blast to use and works very well when leveling through 21-29. Yes the pool of creatures it works on grows limited but since this is a game where you almost always know exactly what to expect when re-visiting an area you've cleared before that's not such a big problem. If you know where the dominate-able beings are they'll always be there waiting for you.

Enchantment spells are of course a pretty poor choice in PVP (mass hold person is intriguing though, it could be good in group pvp where you don't necessarily want to slaughter the other side) and is the school to drop if that is your primary concern but on a more RP and PVE focused wizard it's my favorite school, so much potential for wackiness and a dominated creature or two (when it works) plus summons makes a wizard almost as powerful as a druid for churning through dungeons.

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:07 pm**

Mindfog is a very powerful spell. It is an party friendly (will not effect people in party) AoE disable targeting will, and with esf Enchantment stunning those that fail the roll for d6 rounds. It also lowers the will save of those those it hits. 3.5 on average passed save throw, and 7 on a failed one, opening them up for further spells and abilities that target will like fear auras, darkbolt, wierd, etc.

It is also a form of battlefield control as if chased you can just run through it and watch chaser either stop to mind ward, or risk the roll. This applies even more in group pvp where the spell is utterly brutal.

Arelith

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