Arelith

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm**

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 1) Sounds like you're considering low AC PvE targets and not PvP. In PvP, higher AB is always king. PvE is negligible.

That's an inherent lack of understanding of mechanics.

A 100 AB 1 damage character with 1 APR will output an average of 95 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 95% of the time, so 95x1)
A 100 damage 1 AB character with 1 APR will output an average of 500 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 5% of the time, so 5x100)

Obviously this is to an extreme, they're both important, but AB is not important if it's in excess. (You can add 20 damage on for critting to the first, I guess.)

Rangers output more damage dependant on the build, unless (off the top of my head) the opponent AC is in the mid-60's to ~70. That's also only IF you discount the ~+12 (normally more against high ac targets) initial flurry caused by hips FF'ing.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 2) If you're going by 21 Ranger, yes, like I said, you have slightly more damage vs CERTAIN enemies, not all enemies. I consider the damage bonus to be less, because most AA builds will take at least 5 Ranger levels, giving them at least +2 damage from Archer. Secondly, is your ranger dipped into Fighter? Because most AA builds dip fighter for Epic Weapon Focus. Having +2 or +4 more damage on average vs specified races is negligible. The AB bonus from AA is far superior in killing power.

A ranger will generally dip fighter and bg. Resulting in even more of a damage. A ranger AA can only choose one of the two.

Or just bg/pal with a tumble class if they want big AC.

If we're looking at 'real' AA and ranger builds that disparity in damage is larger than 8 and there's no contest in survivability.

Killing power for PvP is in spike-damage, not consistent damage. You are more able to manage consistent damage.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 3) Arelith has disabled the -4 AB penalty that one gets for using ranged weapons on horses. Mounted Archery brings the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses from -4 to -2 (AKA a +2 bonus). If the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses is 0, it simply gives you +2. Go ahead at test it, I use it every day! That's why most really powerful archery builds ride horses. Such as the Horse-Riding-Shuriken-Throwing-Paladin build.

That's news to me and undocumented. Is it soft AB?

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 4) Depends on how good of a player you are in the physical NWN engine, but for most people, they end up relying on stealth to win and it ends poorly. A better, more reliable strategy is to simply run and gun on horseback with high ride skill.

I'd agree with you that competent people are few and far between, but it's not hard to be a competent person at ranging from stealth.

You press stealth.
You click someone.
You gain ~12-21 ab for your first flurry.
You outdamage the AA.

30% movement speed, the max from riding, necessitates the use of haste to be moving at the same speed as someone else. You don't get an action advantage through that. You gain a slight distance advantage initially, but that will soon go and is absolutely no benefit whatsoever if you consider blinding speed.
More importantly you are less manoeuvrable because of your size.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:36 pm**

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm A 100 AB 1 damage character with 1 APR will output an average of 95 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 95% of the time, so 95x1)
A 100 damage 1 AB character with 1 APR will output an average of 500 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 5% of the time, so 5x100)

while you're not wrong. this logic isnt very relevant against any build with compatible ac. Which is pretty much everyone except casters (in which you really like aa's DR pen) and random no-ac builds who should just know better than charging an archer. In almost every other case, the AB from aa will net an overall high dpr. The bonus ab when you exit stealth is pretty much negated by the fact you need to stop shooting to enter stealth. So..

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm Rangers output more damage dependant on the build, unless (off the top of my head) the opponent AC is in the mid-60's to ~70.

Its not mid 60s if the ranger's ab is 49. The ac starts becoming increasingly more relevant from the mid 30s, which is almost nothing.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm**

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm
RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 1) Sounds like you're considering low AC PvE targets and not PvP. In PvP, higher AB is always king. PvE is negligible.
That's an inherent lack of understanding of mechanics.

A 100 AB 1 damage character with 1 APR will output an average of 95 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 95% of the time, so 95x1)
A 100 damage 1 AB character with 1 APR will output an average of 500 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 5% of the time, so 5x100)

Obviously this is to an extreme, they're both important, but AB is not important if it's in excess. (You can add 20 damage on for critting to the first, I guess.)

Rangers output more damage dependant on the build, unless (off the top of my head) the opponent AC is in the mid-60's to ~70. That's also only IF you discount the ~+12 (normally more against high ac targets) initial flurry caused by hips FF'ing.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 2) If you're going by 21 Ranger, yes, like I said, you have slightly more damage vs CERTAIN enemies, not all enemies. I consider the damage bonus to be less, because most AA builds will take at least 5 Ranger levels, giving them at least +2 damage from Archer. Secondly, is your ranger dipped into Fighter? Because most AA builds dip fighter for Epic Weapon Focus. Having +2 or +4 more damage on average vs specified races is negligible. The AB bonus from AA is far superior in killing power.
A ranger will generally dip fighter and bg. Resulting in even more of a damage. A ranger AA can only choose one of the two.

Or just bg/pal with a tumble class if they want big AC.

If we're looking at 'real' AA and ranger builds that disparity in damage is larger than 8 and there's no contest in survivability.

Killing power for PvP is in spike-damage, not consistent damage. You are more able to manage consistent damage.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 3) Arelith has disabled the -4 AB penalty that one gets for using ranged weapons on horses. Mounted Archery brings the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses from -4 to -2 (AKA a +2 bonus). If the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses is 0, it simply gives you +2. Go ahead at test it, I use it every day! That's why most really powerful archery builds ride horses. Such as the Horse-Riding-Shuriken-Throwing-Paladin build.
That's news to me and undocumented. Is it soft AB?

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm 4) Depends on how good of a player you are in the physical NWN engine, but for most people, they end up relying on stealth to win and it ends poorly. A better, more reliable strategy is to simply run and gun on horseback with high ride skill.
I'd agree with you that competent people are few and far between, but it's not hard to be a competent person at ranging from stealth.

You press stealth.
You click someone.
You gain ~12-21 ab for your first flurry.
You outdamage the AA.

30% movement speed, the max from riding, necessitates the use of haste to be moving at the same speed as someone else. You don't get an action advantage through that. You gain a slight distance advantage initially, but that will soon go and is absolutely no benefit whatsoever if you consider blinding speed.
More importantly you are less manoeuvrable because of your size.

-As AstralUniverse pointed out, the AB bonus from AA is extremely relevant in nearly all cases of PVP excluding when fighting a low AC mage- in which case the enhancement bonus to AA arrows is extremely relevant for beating DR.
-With a ranger's ~50 AB, they will be consistently missing a lot of shots in PvP on their later attacks, where as an AA is more likely to be scoring hits on their later attacks.
-If you are not killing people immediately in your first flurry as a ranger archer, which you likely won't be, you will need to flee or die to melee combat. Most likely you won't be successful at fleeing without a horse and having already been at long distance.
-The +30% from Ride Skill is stacked onto the already base speed of the horse.
-If you take a fast horse, which may have +30% ride speed, and you have +30% bonus from your ride skill, your speed will be +60% total. Like I said, I am frequently as fast or faster than people who are hasted while on a horse.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:51 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:36 pm
Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm A 100 AB 1 damage character with 1 APR will output an average of 95 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 95% of the time, so 95x1)
A 100 damage 1 AB character with 1 APR will output an average of 500 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 5% of the time, so 5x100)
while you're not wrong. this logic isnt very relevant against any build with compatible ac. Which is pretty much everyone except casters (in which you really like aa's DR pen) and random no-ac builds who should just know better than charging an archer. In almost every other case, the AB from aa will net an overall high dpr. The bonus ab when you exit stealth is pretty much negated by the fact you need to stop shooting to enter stealth. So..

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm Rangers output more damage dependant on the build, unless (off the top of my head) the opponent AC is in the mid-60's to ~70.
Its not mid 60s if the ranger's ab is 49. The ac starts becoming increasingly more relevant from the mid 30s, which is almost nothing.

It's tempered by the damage increase.

I've plotted this before. There is absolutely only a small AC range which AA's excel at. Above and below that it's rangers all the way. Unfortunately my favourite graphing tool is out of service at the moment, but feel free to plot something if you can be bothered.

And even in that small range, rangers still win from the effective first flurry AB then gain from hips.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:57 pm**

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -As AstralUniverse pointed out, the AB bonus from AA is extremely relevant in nearly all cases of PVP excluding when fighting a low AC mage- in which case the enhancement bonus to AA arrows is extremely relevant for beating DR.
-With a ranger's ~50 AB, they will be consistently missing a lot of shots in PvP on their later attacks, where as an AA is more likely to be scoring hits on their later attacks.

Plot it, post it, be pleasantly surprised.

Then incorporate the first flurry bonus and be even more surprised!

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -If you are not killing people immediately in your first flurry as a ranger archer, which you likely won't be, you will need to flee or die to melee combat. Most likely you won't be successful at fleeing without a horse and having already been at long distance.

You don't need to run, you have AC enough to face tank a melee.
You have HIPS as a backup if you need it.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -The +30% from Ride Skill is stacked onto the already base speed of the horse.
-If you take a fast horse, which may have +30% ride speed, and you have +30% bonus from your ride skill, your speed will be +60% total. Like I said, I am frequently as fast or faster than people who are hasted while on a horse.

Again that's undocumented.

However you can't move faster than 50% without monk speed. So that's definitely incorrect.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:59 pm**

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:51 pm I've plotted this before. There is absolutely only a small AC range which AA's excel at. Above and below that it's rangers all the way

That range, logically, is exactly the difference in ab between the ranger and the aa. So its not a big range, but as I said, it's just not a very good logic to work with because more often than not, your target will have more ac than your ab but not enough ac for you to hit only on 20s so AA's ab is a lot more relevant than your logic shows.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:00 pm**

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:51 pm
AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:36 pm
Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm A 100 AB 1 damage character with 1 APR will output an average of 95 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 95% of the time, so 95x1)
A 100 damage 1 AB character with 1 APR will output an average of 500 damage over 100 rounds against a 100 AC target. (You will hit 5% of the time, so 5x100)
while you're not wrong. this logic isnt very relevant against any build with compatible ac. Which is pretty much everyone except casters (in which you really like aa's DR pen) and random no-ac builds who should just know better than charging an archer. In almost every other case, the AB from aa will net an overall high dpr. The bonus ab when you exit stealth is pretty much negated by the fact you need to stop shooting to enter stealth. So..

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:14 pm Rangers output more damage dependant on the build, unless (off the top of my head) the opponent AC is in the mid-60's to ~70.
Its not mid 60s if the ranger's ab is 49. The ac starts becoming increasingly more relevant from the mid 30s, which is almost nothing.
It's tempered by the damage increase.

I've plotted this before. There is absolutely only a small AC range which AA's excel at. Above and below that it's rangers all the way. Unfortunately my favourite graphing tool is out of service at the moment, but feel free to plot something if you can be bothered.

And even in that small range, rangers still win from the effective first flurry AB then gain from hips.

The +4 to +8 damage increase isn't better if you're missing several later shots or facing someone who you don't have a Favored Enemy for. In the case of PvP you can assume that any non-mage target worth beating will have more substantial AC and a -pray to negate your first flurry. You need to have friends or a good escape route after your flurry doesn't drop anyone and you find yourself in melee range.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm**

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:57 pm
RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -As AstralUniverse pointed out, the AB bonus from AA is extremely relevant in nearly all cases of PVP excluding when fighting a low AC mage- in which case the enhancement bonus to AA arrows is extremely relevant for beating DR.
-With a ranger's ~50 AB, they will be consistently missing a lot of shots in PvP on their later attacks, where as an AA is more likely to be scoring hits on their later attacks.
Plot it, post it, be pleasantly surprised.

Then incorporate the first flurry bonus and be even more surprised!

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -If you are not killing people immediately in your first flurry as a ranger archer, which you likely won't be, you will need to flee or die to melee combat. Most likely you won't be successful at fleeing without a horse and having already been at long distance.
You don't need to run, you have AC enough to face tank a melee.
You have HIPS as a backup if you need it.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:50 pm -The +30% from Ride Skill is stacked onto the already base speed of the horse.
-If you take a fast horse, which may have +30% ride speed, and you have +30% bonus from your ride skill, your speed will be +60% total. Like I said, I am frequently as fast or faster than people who are hasted while on a horse.
Again that's undocumented.

However you can't move faster than 50% without monk speed. So that's definitely incorrect.

You're definitely never face tanking a melee as a ranger archer, period. Again, HIPS isn't that great when your opponent has high listen or True Seeing or other contingency plans. I mean, feel free to do what you want... I'm just saying it probably won't work well.

The base speed of horses is undocumented, but that is indeed how it works. Also monk speed on Arelith does not stack with other speed buffs.

It sounds like you need to work on your Arelith strategies if you're unsure about:
-face tanking a melee build as an archer
-how horse speed works
-how Mounted ranged AB bonus works
-The AC of most player builds
-The ability to -pray and negate an opening flurry

Good luck and happy hunting!

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:09 pm**

What are we arguing here? OP asked for arrow bundles for godsake.

It is pretty ironic socks is getting greased in this thread when they're one of the better builders, but okay.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:34 pm**

If riding does uncap the movement speed limit like NWN stock monk does or grant extra AB through extra feats then that should probably be changed.

I agree that it doesn't have a huge relevance to arrow bundle QOL changes. QOL shouldn't be used as a method of balance IMO as it doesn't change the ceiling, just the floor of PC power.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:36 pm**

please don't derail this thread with bad building advice. like ork said, it's purpose was solely to suggest that a QoL change be given to arcane archers and potentially any characters that simply invest a focus feat into a ranged wep. this is the place to discuss the procs and cons of such a change

there's another thread about archer balance in this same subforum

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:47 pm**

I really didnt mean to grease anyone. I didnt even realize it's a 2v1 discussion for an entire page. I just wanted to point out one mathematical fact that has little to do with building actually. Either way I'm sorry for the derail. I'm in favor of arrow bundles for archers in general.

bronze bundle for weapon focus.
steel bundle for epic weapon focus.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:11 pm**

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm You're definitely never face tanking a melee as a ranger archer, period.

A standard self-buffed ranger is sitting at: 59 AC. 10 (Base)+ 14 (Dex)+ 9 (Div Shield)+ 4 (Haste) + 6 (Tumble) + 2 (AS) + 4 (BS) + 4 (Shield Pot) + 4 (Ranger Armour) + 1 (MA) + 1 (Boots).

Lose 6 damage from fighter and pick up some more with your friendly neighbourhood monk dip.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm Again, HIPS isn't that great when your opponent has high listen or True Seeing or other contingency plans. I mean, feel free to do what you want... I'm just saying it probably won't work well.

It's high spot, listen is irrelevant. Spot is also harder to gear and buff than listen.

True seeing will help you, if you apply it and continue to do so every single round. Though I'm unsure why you would.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm The base speed of horses is undocumented, but that is indeed how it works. Also monk speed on Arelith does not stack with other speed buffs.

50% is the absolute max you can move in NWN, unless you have monk speed from monk levels (Which has been removed from arelith).

I'll freely admit you may be able to move at 50% speed as a horse, since all those changes are very undocumented - however you won't be moving faster than that.

The lack of manoeuvrability is still a poor choice.

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm It sounds like you need to work on your Arelith strategies if you're unsure about:
-face tanking a melee build as an archer
-how horse speed works
-how Mounted ranged AB bonus works
-The AC of most player builds
-The ability to -pray and negate an opening flurry

Good luck and happy hunting!

Here's the average damage graph / round for:

Ranger/Fighter/Div (Blue)
Ranger/AA/Div (Orange) (+10 Enhance)
Ranger/Fighter/Div (Out of hips, presuming 13 FF penalty on your opponent- it's usually more) (Yellow)

I haven't put in template arrow damage, but appropriate AB is included. This is sans flurry (Flurry increases the damage across the board and widens/lessens in favour of the ranger)

Feel free to make your own!

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:17 pm**

And, yeh, sorry guys. Totally derailed! If anyone would like to math at me on discord or in a PM they're more than welcome to.

QoL is good! I love it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:22 pm**

RogueUnicorn wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 pm
You're definitely never face tanking a melee as a ranger archer, period. Again, HIPS isn't that great when your opponent has high listen or True Seeing or other contingency plans. I mean, feel free to do what you want... I'm just saying it probably won't work well.

You're wrong. You can definitely face tank a melee--pretty much any melee--as an archer if you have divine shield (mid-60s AC), which is very easy (and profitable!) to do with the way things are. I've discussed that in the other archer thread, though. As far as HiPS goes, it's still a huge advantage because the purpose of flashing HiPS is not to remain hidden but to flat foot your opponent for your flurry. You'd have to have very, very high Listen to catch a stealth-focused, dex-based ranger archer immediately to negate this. Like, very high, to the point where you'd have to be bardsonged AND geared. The only person I know of who is able to detect me immediately when stealthing is a bard with several pieces of +5 listen gear that are suboptimal for their class, and they total out at 86 listen with their buffs and bardsong up. Most players aren't going to get listen that high, so they're probably going to get alpha striked if they're in PvP with a ranger. Also, it's very easy to wait out true seeing with its nerfed duration. That's a lot of scrolls or eyes of savras charges (which would cost you your amulet slot).

Getting access to the craft ammunition feat wouldn't make AAs appreciably stronger. They can still get arrows from a friendly ranger such as myself and have the same access to templates that other ranged characters do. They'll still get the arrows one way or another. It's literally just a nice thing to do for the people playing the class.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:35 pm**

Create arrow pending to be added to AA as with ranger.

We can lock this now.

Posted: **Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:52 pm**

Looks like the conclusion has been reached. This thread doesn't need to go on any longer.

Arelith

AA Love

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