Favored Soul Feedback

[a shrouded figure]

Correct, splash Paladin to win

[Rosewood Revel]

They are very much a divinely blessed class very similar to paladin. They get the boon of magic and holy/unholy power whether they want it or not. But the saves and spellcasting is part of the reason why it's feats and abilities are sparse. I haven't been able to confirm whether the resistances stack with defensive essences for example. Garr has not mentioned it yet.

The resistances are a useful, but not major benefit of being a favored soul. A lot of consideration has to be taken when you have something that can cast epic spells.


That being said. Does anyone have any little. Useful ideas that Fs could have? They aren't planned to have piety regen. But their spells may not need piety due to their nature of being Fs. Not can they consecrate alters. Is there something we could give them like the archers creeat ammo that'd be handy or useful?


Tldr: we have to be careful since we need to make a cleric alternative not a replacement. While keeping the theme os Fs intact.

[Aren]

How about making them more melee oriented? (I stole the following from NWN 2 wiki)

Deity's Weapon Proficiency
At level 1, Favored souls gain a weapon proficiency feat that allows them to use their deity’s favored weapon. For example, favored souls of Kelemvor will gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, enabling them to use a bastard sword. If the deity's favored weapon is an unarmed strike, the favored soul receives Improved Unarmed Strike instead.

Weapon Focus - Deity's favored weapon
At level 3, a Favored Soul automatically gains the Weapon Focus feat for their deity’s favored weapon.

Weapon Specialization - Deity's favored weapon
At level 12, a Favored Soul automatically gains the Weapon Specialization for their deity’s favored weapon.
Note: If the Favored Soul changes deity then Weapon Specialisation will be of the new deity e.g. a Favored Soul of Jergal becomes a Doomguide. Weapon Focus: Scythe will remain, but on their 12th level they will receive Weapon Specialisation: Bastard Sword.

I am aware that this requires all deities to have a favoured weapon attached to them. Could be a cool addition.

[The1Kobra]

Having worked with a few builds so far...

I don't really see what this class offers that cleric does not. The spontaneous casting is nice, for certain. I have a personal preference for spontaneous casters, but clerics have a lot more cookies than favored souls currently do. Some of the sorcerer vs wizard debate applies, but other parts don't.

First thing, here's what favored souls get that clerics don't:
Better saves, especially reflex, and especially if paladin/bg splashed.
More skills (I'm rather surprised they get 4/level), though they don't have many class skills themselves, limiting the utility somewhat unless splashed. Bard works well.
5/- resist standard elements.

Clerics however, get:
Better will save if not paladin/bg splashed.
More spellbook flexibility thanks to domains. (Including travel domain to cast haste more than FS can)
Turn undead.
Better melee flexibility due to being able to use divine might/divine shield
Ability to splash monk and get a significant benefit out of it.

Keep in mind that unlike sorcerers, favored souls do not get more spells/day than clerics do.

Overall, I see builds for favored souls being a lot more narrow. Building for melee buffing can work but because of the lack of divine might/shield it is more limited than clerics who can opt for it. The saving throws can help a lot, for sure, though.

One thing, though I'm not sure exactly how to implement it. Favored souls in their current implementation have very little use for wisdom, especially if paladin/bg splashed. Perhaps some way to make them utilize WIS would help. I'm also admittedly not sure they need 4 skills/level either, though...

Edit to add: Favored souls get great WIS as a bonus epic feat even though it does nothing for them. They cannot take great CHA, which their casting depends upon.

[Dr. B]

One option that just occured to me is to give them access to Divine Might/Shield but have the latter scale off of wisdom instead of cha, or give them access to a set of custom feats that do the equivalent of this.

[Drowboy]

Huh. Yeah. Gives it the same cost to do as on a normal cleric. I wonder how easy/hard it would be to just attach that to the normal feats?

[Ork]

Or we could nerf divine might & shield? :>

[Rosewood Revel]

Hmm. If we did that, and it would be interesting, albeit. Under normal circumstances I'd like their spellcasting to stay CHA based. Making the class more MAD isn't the answer per say. But, opening it up as an option is good. Options are good. The only issue is that they don't have turn undead (they can't channel positive energy) So they would have to multi-class to get it.

I think attaching it to the normal feats would be some NWNx shenanigans. I have no idea how hard/easy that is.

That being said, if you opt in for melee, building a Bcleric/battle soul (i'm coining this now) The majority of them didn't take divine might/shield because it was not needed, and making your stats more MAD when you already had all this damage didn't end up being the most optimal decision. There are still some around but they're a bit rare. the CHA bcleric. I know they're still powerful (they're heccin clerics) But the stats and numbers were much cleaner and your ludicrous windup which was already a lot didn't need two more actions added to it.

Kobra does list the pros/cons. But, FS will be getting a default expanded spellbook over cleric. We don't know what that will look like until Garr gets back with us on an updated build for the FS. As above though, i'd be glad to have divine might/shield as a wis option for them so it's not broke as all hecc, though not necessary.

We discussed it earlier, but one of the biggest boons they got was wings in TT, which, there's just no way to replicate that mobility enhancement here. And, Alignment based DR at level 20. of 10/silver for lawful or 10/cold Iron. Something to consider adding. Mind you, the original Favored soul was never more powerful than a standard cleric. I wouldn't expect the one we help Garr and the team to create will be either.

Nerfing divine might/shield is a topic for another time. They're heccin strong. Yes. But we must focus on the class.

[The1Kobra]

I had thought of making a favored soul's divine might/divine shield WIS based, but then I figured out that you could take monk alongside that and create an incredibly OP cheese build with that. Something like a zen archer ranger/monk/FS with WIS based divine might and shield would be hilariously broken.

I suppose another alternative would be to relax the divine might/shield restriction on FS and make their casting based on WIS, which does make them very similar to clerics in that regard, admittedly. Still, it does feel right to have CHA be their casting stat, even though in PNP it's based on CHA and WIS simultaneously.

I would like to give FS some use out of WIS though. It feels right for the class. I'd have to think on how that could be accomplished, though.

[Dr. B]

Or we could nerf divine might & shield? :>

Even if it were nerfed (which I think it shouldn't be), allowing FS's access to it would make them categorically superior to clerics. There'd be no reason to play a str bcleric without DM/DS, or a cha battlecleric who needs to make stat sacrifices for DM/DS, when you can just play a favored soul and take DM/DS. You essentially combine the benefits of a str battlecleric and cha battlecleric with absolutely no drawbacks, along with additional skillpoints and elemental resistances.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Echoing what Aren said.

FS should get some scaling with their deity's favoured weapon (or weapon group). That'd be neat. It'd make them a more militant-cleric.

But the problem with FS has always been "how is this different than a battlecleric"? To me, right now, I can't spot a big mechanical gap between the pair. Narratively, sure (although I think favoured soul will bring about an absolute mess of concepts, but only time will tell).

[Rosewood Revel]

The only thing about Fs getting deity's favored weapon is some of the deities have some really whacky weapon selections. But it does give you proficiency which is nice.

[Drowboy]

Running the altered FS through the test server, the spell selection and spells known changes give it a much smoother feel, choice-wise. (Neat to put the last spell known on FS 21, too, big fan). There's some tough choices but not to the degree of 'you take these 3 on every FS no matter what' that some levels had, so it's a welcome change.

Some fresh thoughts:
Greater planar binding would be nice if only thematically.

FS 24/cleric/saves-or-dump seems like it would be common, so maybe consider: extra haste use at 26, 2 extra hastes (or auto-extend? Hastes on Cooldown?) at 28.

If the weird 'less spells per day with 8 wis' thing can't be fixed, toss them a hard wis at say, 19 and 21, to ease up their gearing/initial stats slightly?

[garrbear758]

Greater planar binding was an oversight. I'll add it in with the next update

[Anime Sword Fighter]

I don't think the deities need to be linked to specific weapons, maybe give favored souls bonus feats at 8, 16, 28 (arbitrary numbers) and let them select from weapon focus, weapon spec, exotic weapon prof., epic weapon focus, epic weapon spec and trust players to pick weapons thematic to their deity.

[The1Kobra]

Having tried it out a bit now with the updates,

It's a lot better now, adding certain spells have definitely helped round out the lack of domains. I can see this making a decent melee build, it still less options than the cleric, but it is pretty flexible on the spot. It can be hard to set up an offensive caster based one, but it is a bit easier on the stats for a caster since with the 4 skills/level, they don't need to invest as heavily in INT. Still, working with it I had enough spells to have a decent offensive repertoire.

Mind you, just thematically, I think it would be more appropriate to have them be at 2 skills/level and have some benefit for having WIS.

I'm not sure bonus weapon feats would be prudent, though it is certainly something that could be done. It does give them something on clerics though to counter that they get turn undead and potential for divine might/shield. Maybe they could reduce skills to 2/level and add bonus weapon focus at L3 and weapon specialization at L12? I'm not sure epic would be needed though.

Edit to add: Side note: Are any paths currently expected to be included for Favored Souls? I could see a healer one and a true-flame like one being added down the line...

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Why don't we just put a cap the bonus favoured souls can get from divine shield/might?

[The1Kobra]

Caps are kind of awkward. I do however think that one possible change if we do want to open up the possibility of divine might/shield using favored souls would be this:

For Favored Souls, using divine might or divine shield will use the lower of WIS modifier or CHA modifier.

That ought to allow more build flexibility while giving some use to WIS on a favored soul.

(Naturally if this is put in I'd recommend against giving favored souls extra skills/day or bonus weapon feats)

[Chosen Son]

Cleric at the moment seems a straight upgrade for Cleric in cases you dont want to play a healer or death domain cleric for empowered harms.

They get 4+int saves, vs 2+int clerics get. That they dont have solid choices to pick from does not matter as you save them for the splashed skill dump class.
They get fort, ref, and will as good saves, as opposed to fort and will with ref as low, shoring up the lowest save clerics had.
They get Haste, Imp Invis, and Aura of Vitality, the first from class ability, and second two as spells, giving them spells from 3 domains, while a cleric would have to pick two.
And they, if I read the update correctly, also now get "Increased max known spells by 1" (assume per level?) over cleric?
Favored soul seems very powerful now, and the default if one does not want to play a healer cleric, access to empowered heals.

We should not be discussing what to add to this class, but what to take away without gutting it. As starters I suggest:

1. Remove bonus spell per level, if thats indeed what they get now.
2. Remove one of the high saves, so they have 2 high, 1 low.
3. Make skill points 2+int modifier

[Drowboy]

And they, if I read the update correctly, also now get "Increased max known spells by 1" (assume per level?) over cleric?

Please, and this isn't even a dig at you but more general advice for everyone who wants to help: Don't just read the notes, make assumptions, and drop in your thoughts. Go on the PGCC and give it a run-around and see what the notes and such actually mean. They don't need 'gutting,' my god.

Also 4+int should be the absolute minimum skills per level anything gets and Bioware was rancid for doing 2+.

[Chosen Son]

A post can stand on the strenght of its arguments. That I dont have access to arelith just this moment to verify what Irongorn ment, and need to base my conditional concern on what was written instead, does not mean I dont have experience gleaned from playing the game to offer. And I have. I've stated what I think and why. I would appreciate not having it dismissed off hand just because you dont agree with what you read.

Also, if you read what I said, you will have noted that I specifically said I dont want to gut it. That is what "Without gutting it" means.

[Drowboy]

On merits, then.

straight upgrade for Cleric in cases you dont want to play a healer or death domain cleric for empowered harms

It's an alternative, not an upgrade. If you're doing neither of these very strong cleric options, you're probably a battlecleric, and testing indicates a similar FS build to a standard Bcleric gets pretty much the exact same numbers, because they get the same spells. (and the FS is unable to cast more than 4 hastes, nor can it extend them.)

The int thing I addressed already, 2+int is a personal attack from bioware.

Saves are whatever because they're cha based and if they want good saves they'll have them so do whatevs, but: having 'high' will and 8 wisdom doesn't actually help them with will saves nearly as much as your average cleric's wis score does.

They don't 'get' those spells. They have 'access' to those spells. Weighed against their very limited spells known (4 spells known, period, per level at 6, 7, 8, 9). In taking those spells they lose access to others. They know spells the same way sorcerers do. They're spontaneous casters. They also lose the main draw of some of the stronger domains: No haste, no empowered heals or harms, no 'free' upgraded summons.

And they, if I read the update correctly, also now get "Increased max known spells by 1" (assume per level?) over cleric?

You didn't. They don't cast the same way. Think sorc vs wizard. Cleric knows all their spells. FS knows a handful.

[Imperatrix]

I think favoured soul is in a pretty good spot now, maybe even a little too good. I'd raise Imp Invis to level 5 (where trickery clerics get it.) and remove Aura of Vitality unless there are plans to give clerics that spell as base as well (I think clerics should get haste, imp invis, and AoV added, but that's a separate topic.)

I'd also give them reflex as a low save. Their saves are very high across the board with a div dip.

It feels pretty bad not to have haste in your spellbook when you try to make a "caster cleric" version but I guess clerics can keep that niche (though 4 hastes is enough for most PvP engagement so it's still possible.)

I think increasing their known spells was a much bigger buff than increasing their spells/day would have been. I made a melee-focused 27/3 fs/bg with epic evocation, GRuin, and Hellball and I don't feel like I had to make any real sacrifices when I chose my spells:

1 Bless; Divine Favour, PfA; Remove Fear; Shield of Faith; ???
2 Aid; Bear's; Bull's; Cat's; Eagle's; Silence or Ultravision
3 Clarity; Magic Vestment; NEB; NEP; Prayer
4 Death Ward; Div Power; Freedom; GMW; Imp Invis
5 Battletide; Energy Buffer; Raise Dead; Spell Resistance; True Seeing
6 Blade Barrier; GSanc; Harm; Heal
7 GResto; Regenerate; Resurrect; WoF;
8 Earthquake; Mass Heal; Nybor's; Sunbeam (Greater Binding will go here)
9 Gate; Implosion; SoV; Summon 9

Maybe consider reverting the known spells buff and increase their spells/day instead?

[Rosewood Revel]

The Favored Soul, even with the buff is just more viable now. Remember no domain powers as well. Among the fact they're trying to preserve as much of its stuff from TT as possible. In which in TT it'd get 6 spells known per level up to 8th level spells, which it'd have 5 then 4. The high saves is pro it just has over normal cleric.

There was an above post about increasing spells known making sure that not every Favored Soul just picked the same three spells. On some of those spell levels there are some really good spells that you just miss out on that a cleric would probably have in spades. I wouldn't call it better than a normal cleric by a longshot, really we are nestled right under it. Given that the domain powers can REALLY make them a lot stronger, IE. the Death domain Bcleric is not a niche if you can dispel their NEP have a breach wand, or they just don't have it, the WAR domain power is you're a CHA Bcleric is absurdly strong since you've got divine wrath light that you can combine with divine might and shield. Though I'd like to think Garr chose what spell levels to put some of these on carefully.

I just think we have a reason to pick them over cleric now. When before I wouldn't have even considered it since it was like intentionally cutting off all your goodies. That being said, they already have quite a lot of spells/day even if you aren't maxing your CHA out, 18-20 CHA with gear buffs for more gives them sorcerer level spells/day. It's not 40 CHA, but you're pushing that into strength/con too on a Battle soul specifically. Not to mention your spell list will be entirely different, if you are trying to be a full caster Soul.

[the grim yeeter]

Currently, 22FS/5hpriest/3cleric with death domain is an option, to empower your FS harms (yes, this works), still have a 27 CL and class-skill discipline and tumble. You're basically a stronger bcleric (that, for example doesn't have reflex as a weakness). I think this is an issue.

As a side-note, can something be done about harpers already (specifically, paragon and priest)?