Arelith

If you'd rather not add haste as a spell directly, you could perhaps tie it into the companion itself. Possibly something that only effects the shaman himself, then expands to effect allies as class levels increase.

A powerful effect certainly, but one tied to a creature you've said will be pretty fragile.

Just spit balling ideas, I am very excited to see how shaman looks with access to it's spirit.

Is spirit a creature or more of a totem that is static (and on 30-60sec cooldown?)

Do the bonuses change with levels?

Maybe I should just wait for it

The "spirit companion" feels like a very odd direction. It sounds like an effect very similar to bard song, which is ludicrously powerful; any party with a bard will probably win against the one that doesn't, so I'm naturally leery.

strong yeet wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:19 pm The "spirit companion" feels like a very odd direction. It sounds like an effect very similar to bard song, which is ludicrously powerful; any party with a bard will probably win against the one that doesn't, so I'm naturally leery.

The method of counteracting a Bard Song is to: Never ever let the Bard sing, somehow.

The method of counteracting a Spirit Companion seems to be to kill the Spirit Companion.


Feels pretty straightforward to me.

Played it and I think the Shaman could do with; The Undead Raise spells. (They are like witch doctors) and the raise dead/resurrection spells (To emulate their reincarnation and resurrection abilities they have).

While I was hoping Favored Soul/Shaman would be 'All the spells, but sorcerer type casting', however, I won't be greedy.

I think those specific spells I mentioned make thematic sense for the class though.

(Albeit this is the last time, my attachments are now over)

One-Eyed Doll wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:38 pm Played it and I think the Shaman could do with; The Undead Raise spells. (They are like witch doctors) and the raise dead/resurrection spells (To emulate their reincarnation and resurrection abilities they have).

They already can take all the animation spells and raise dead.

strong yeet wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:19 pm The "spirit companion" feels like a very odd direction. It sounds like an effect very similar to bard song, which is ludicrously powerful; any party with a bard will probably win against the one that doesn't, so I'm naturally leery.

Agreed, the last thing we need is more party buffs (Bard nerfs when?).

Maybe if they didn't stack with bard song, they'd be okay?

Something creative that isn't just an amalgamation of other class abilities with some added numbers would be nice as well.

garrbear758 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:56 am

Hunter548 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:32 am Further question: Will Shaman (And FS, I suppose) count as divine classes for the purposes of passive piety generation? Will they be able to consecrate/desecrate altars?

As of right now we do not plan for them to get either of those abilties.

No consecrations is fair enough, but no passive piety generation seems like a weird decision. All the other divine casters get it with the exception of rangers, as do blackguards - and I assume Shaman uses piety for their high level spells. I would assume the same logic for clerics etc getting passive piety generation above a certain level would hold for shaman.

Are they going to counter for dweomercrafting at the same rate other primary casters do?

spirit AoE buff is giving me huge GW1 ritualist vibes and i am very here for it, keen to see where that goes

do shamans get the boosted effects of druid spells with the requisite spell focuses like regular druids get? inferno is the only one i can remember atm

edit: neat spell for them could be Circle of Doom from the Cleric list, but give it the same treatment as Healing Circle - make it a pulsing AoE for 3 rounds. (and make that change the case regardless of caster, because it's a totally useless spell atm. maybe death domain gives it the "caster levels increase radius" thing that Healer path gives healing Circle too, but this is off topic now)

haven't had a chance to check out the current spell list but Evil Blight seems thematic as it's a big-Snuggybear curse, maybe Enervation/Energy Drain although they're a bit crap, Stone Bones, Entropic Shield, Fear, Crushing Despair/Good Hope, Detect Poison, Eyebite, Finger of Agony, Irresistable Dance, Maze, Nightmare, and Wall of Ice (should also be given to Druids normally). Most of these are more thematic than especially powerful but would help go some way to distinguish Shamans a bit more. That said, they shouldn't have a huge bearing on their balance either as these spells can often be underwhelming

edit 2: do they gain any bonus language? i presume animal.

The one thing I would comment on is that the way the class is currently structured, it makes them incredibly reliant on a barbarian splash in order to make a suitable battle-shaman build, which seems to be how the class is going for. Could they be given their own 'rage' ability (Call it primal fury or something?), so that they don't need to splash barbarian? Naturally other classes like ranger (I rather like the concept of a shaman/archer...) wouldn't have them stack on the rage bonus, but I think it would help with build diversity on these. I wouldn't want them pidgeonholed into a single multiclass combination.

Without it though, they're pretty well hosed compared to druids, not having an animal companion or shapeshifting. Still, the rage does open up some interesting combinations. Maybe allow shamans to qualify for the epic rage feats, if that's the way we want to go with it conceptually?

..is "battle-shaman" what the class is going for? Pretty much none of their spells support a melee character; I assumed the barb synergy was there for defensive/summon purposes and the class was meant to be a primary caster ala sorcerers/wizards rather than something that mixes melee and casting ala Spellswords and Battleclerics. Druids already kind of fill that niche of cast/melee nature caster mix anyways, with monolith form and unshifting to drop things like SoV and Bombardment etc. Nature-y primary caster is a much more unfilled role.


If they're intended for a spell-melee playstyle they're gonna need a lot of pretty gigantic buffs. As it stands, even with the Spirit Totem and barb rage, I imagine you'd struggle to clear 40 AB, and your damage is going to be piddling.

Their spell list definitely screams 'caster,' the barb thing seems to just be a little nice thematic toy.

One-Eyed Doll wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:38 pm Played it and I think the Shaman could do with; The Undead Raise spells. (They are like witch doctors) and the raise dead/resurrection spells (To emulate their reincarnation and resurrection abilities they have).

While I was hoping Favored Soul/Shaman would be 'All the spells, but sorcerer type casting', however, I won't be greedy.

I think those specific spells I mentioned make thematic sense for the class though.

(Albeit this is the last time, my attachments are now over)

Shaman has those already. They don't get ressurection, but they get all undead summoning / control / halt spells along with raise dead.

I feel, looking at the update, which I think is neat, that there is a small bit if inconsistency here with shaman.

Favored souls cannot take divine might/shield, so as to not stack spontaneous casting with ac and spell dc on the same stat.

The class has barbarian perks, but I feel like if we take a step back and look over to monk with shaman, you have a spontaneous dc caster stacking ac and spell DC on a single stat while hiding behind 4 buffed elementals or an EDK. I'm not entirely unconvinced in the long run that 95% of shamans will have 4 monk levels.

I'm not entirely against that, but I do wonder why one but not the other.

Something already possible on druid and cleric vs only needing str and cha for a setup (full cleric DS/DM-er) that requires str, cha, and wis, traditionally. Really rather not take the lid off the 'monk wis class nerf box.'

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:55 am I feel, looking at the update, which I think is neat, that there is a small bit if inconsistency here with shaman.

Favored souls cannot take divine might/shield, so as to not stack spontaneous casting with ac and spell dc on the same stat.

The class has barbarian perks, but I feel like if we take a step back and look over to monk with shaman, you have a spontaneous dc caster stacking ac and spell DC on a single stat while hiding behind 4 buffed elementals or an EDK. I'm not entirely unconvinced in the long run that 95% of shamans will have 4 monk levels.

I'm not entirely against that, but I do wonder why one but not the other.

Shaman 27/Monk 3 only gets about 55 ac(10 + 6 tumble + 6 dex mod + 14 wis mod + 1 boots + 4 shield potion + 5 barkskin + 4 haste + 1 mage armor pot + 1 shield skleen +3 shirt = 55), which is on the high end for things like arcanists but not really absurd levels, at least in my opinion - especially when it relies on two short-duration potions and a skleen.


For reference: Favored Soul 27/Paladin (or Whatever) 3 gets 67 AC (10 base 3 tumble 1 dex mod 8 Fullplate 5 magic vestment 3 Tower Shield 5 magic vestment 5 shield of faith 4 barkskin 4 haste 1 boots 14 divine shield 1 mage armor = 67) if built as a caster. If built as a melee character, they've got (probably) 64 but expertise/improved expertise ontop of that, and armor skin is less of a stretch on a melee shell than on a caster shell.

I think would be very shaman like to be able to cast raise dead and would be a cool trick druids can't do.

Hunter548 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:33 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:55 am I feel, looking at the update, which I think is neat, that there is a small bit if inconsistency here with shaman.

Favored souls cannot take divine might/shield, so as to not stack spontaneous casting with ac and spell dc on the same stat.

The class has barbarian perks, but I feel like if we take a step back and look over to monk with shaman, you have a spontaneous dc caster stacking ac and spell DC on a single stat while hiding behind 4 buffed elementals or an EDK. I'm not entirely unconvinced in the long run that 95% of shamans will have 4 monk levels.

I'm not entirely against that, but I do wonder why one but not the other.

Shaman 27/Monk 3 only gets about 55 ac(10 + 6 tumble + 6 dex mod + 14 wis mod + 1 boots + 4 shield potion + 5 barkskin + 4 haste + 1 mage armor pot + 1 shield skleen +3 shirt = 55), which is on the high end for things like arcanists but not really absurd levels, at least in my opinion - especially when it relies on two short-duration potions and a skleen.


For reference: Favored Soul 27/Paladin (or Whatever) 3 gets 67 AC (10 base 3 tumble 1 dex mod 8 Fullplate 5 magic vestment 3 Tower Shield 5 magic vestment 5 shield of faith 4 barkskin 4 haste 1 boots 14 divine shield 1 mage armor = 67) if built as a caster. If built as a melee character, they've got (probably) 64 but expertise/improved expertise ontop of that, and armor skin is less of a stretch on a melee shell than on a caster shell.

I thought favoured souls cant use the divine shield/power feats.

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:54 am

Hunter548 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:33 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:55 am I feel, looking at the update, which I think is neat, that there is a small bit if inconsistency here with shaman.

Favored souls cannot take divine might/shield, so as to not stack spontaneous casting with ac and spell dc on the same stat.

The class has barbarian perks, but I feel like if we take a step back and look over to monk with shaman, you have a spontaneous dc caster stacking ac and spell DC on a single stat while hiding behind 4 buffed elementals or an EDK. I'm not entirely unconvinced in the long run that 95% of shamans will have 4 monk levels.

I'm not entirely against that, but I do wonder why one but not the other.

Shaman 27/Monk 3 only gets about 55 ac(10 + 6 tumble + 6 dex mod + 14 wis mod + 1 boots + 4 shield potion + 5 barkskin + 4 haste + 1 mage armor pot + 1 shield skleen +3 shirt = 55), which is on the high end for things like arcanists but not really absurd levels, at least in my opinion - especially when it relies on two short-duration potions and a skleen.


For reference: Favored Soul 27/Paladin (or Whatever) 3 gets 67 AC (10 base 3 tumble 1 dex mod 8 Fullplate 5 magic vestment 3 Tower Shield 5 magic vestment 5 shield of faith 4 barkskin 4 haste 1 boots 14 divine shield 1 mage armor = 67) if built as a caster. If built as a melee character, they've got (probably) 64 but expertise/improved expertise ontop of that, and armor skin is less of a stretch on a melee shell than on a caster shell.

I thought favoured souls cant use the divine shield/power feats.

They can't, but the point of comparison was "Why is Favored Soul blocked from using divine shield when shaman isn't blocked from monk and is also op?".

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:52 am I think would be very shaman like to be able to cast raise dead and would be a cool trick druids can't do.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27941&start=25#p221554

are shamans going to get access to cleric-only equipment? At least, they need that Witch-doctor's Necklace. It calls to them.

Also I feel like this is a good opportunity to lift the alignment-restriction on barbarians, so we can have LG shaman/barbarians thanks.

I like the Synergy with throwing weapons and barbarian rages a lot.

I mean it's not going to put arcane Archers out of work, but it's rather nice to have a weapon you can actually use while you send your summons, and the wall of Hitpoints it grants gives you a lot of maneuver time to get some shots in.

Also, a Voodoo priest with poisoned darts finally.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:23 pm are shamans going to get access to cleric-only equipment? At least, they need that Witch-doctor's Necklace. It calls to them.

Also I feel like this is a good opportunity to lift the alignment-restriction on barbarians, so we can have LG shaman/barbarians thanks.

That would result in some crazy dwarven defender barbarian or monk barbarian builds. Can you imagine 8 apr rage damage.

Also, I thought barbarian rage only worked with throwing axes? Or did that change?

You're right... throwing axes only.

Rip Voodoo Priest with poisoned darts.

I like the idea of your spirit companion being out giving some kind of major buff to you, rather than AOE. Maybe the amount of whatever numbers it needs to switch to melee? Normally they would act as a caster, but with the companion out whatever buff it gives gives them that melee capability.

Anime Sword Fighter wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:30 pm I like the idea of your spirit companion being out giving some kind of major buff to you, rather than AOE. Maybe the amount of whatever numbers it needs to switch to melee? Normally they would act as a caster, but with the companion out whatever buff it gives gives them that melee capability.

Since shamans don't have shapes nor the spells to sustain long hauls with ordnance support in the form of casting, I suspect players are either forced to dawdle while letting summons kill stuff or take Zen Archery for decent damage support with the stacked WIS mod. I dislike both ideas; dawdling is boring and if ranged is the only means of consistent damage support, it will demand a steady supply of handcrafted bundles, which is agony to me. In the early levels it's almost always worthwhile to boost STR through gear on medium BAB classes, because it's easier to hit relevant numbers for AB/damage early, because BAB progression and soft +12 STR are the main modifiers to AB/damage before the minor modifiers like ability points and class feats start stacking up.

On a related note, it's my dirty secret fantasy to have Conjured Weapons for shamans that would last rounds (to bar cheese strats by requiring CL to be used effectively) and be self-cast only to make shamans passable PvM meleers or less reliant on ammo, respectively.

The problem with flat AB bonuses via spirit companion would be that they'd also buff the ranged AB, which MIGHT be a problem, but not necessarily since their damage would still be sillybad.

Could just make it akin to the divine power buff without the extra attack, so it'd convert medium BAB to high BAB so effectively +5 AB and there'd be slight scaling with levels to negate dip cheese. Could also add Greater magic weapon to the list as level 3 spells are fairly poop. Could also make Blood frenzy a decent melee steroid with CL scaling. Just need to decide on yardsticks for "PvM-hittable by level range" and enact that through whatever means.