Open up Arcane Archer in the same way as Dwarven Defender

[Rigela]

Arcane archer is a very elven thing, as is arcane archer with a bow and not something else. A magical long-living race, with supreme archery skills, which is probably aiming a magic arrow at someone right now.

Nothing stops you being that still, if opened up. Other races that take the class won't have the same lore/history/Solonar stuff or any other elfy RP behind it.

[Void]

Arcane archer is a very elven thing, as is arcane archer with a bow and not something else. A magical long-living race, with supreme archery skills, which is probably aiming a magic arrow at someone right now.

Nothing stops you being that still, if opened up. Other races that take the class won't ...

I think I explained it in great detail already.

When arcane archer stops being elf only and bow only, plenty of elf players will be upset, because this used to be their well-guarded racial secret. As was explained by cowboy.

Additionally, elves will no longer be the race with supreme archery skill, because what makes elves unrivaled archers is arcane archers, and when anyone can become an arcane archer, then everybody else will be able to get as good as elves. Kobolds, goblins, halflings, derro.

It is a race-defining feature, pretty much, and as a result this is not a thing to be taken lightly.

[Wuthering]

Most who want it opened up are just attracted to the enchanted arrow BAB bonus right?

So... What if there was a new "Sniper" path that had the Enchanted Arrow bonus and nothing else from the Arcane Archer path. If you want to be a magic archer play an elf, but this way you can still get that sweet bonus.

Maybe you need point blank shot, rapid shot and a missile weapon focus to take it. So you may take ranger/archer to access the class but you don't have to. Bard and wizard do nothing.

Maybe it compounds with rogue levels for armor bonus and Blinding Speed duration.

And make it work with slings, crossbows and thrown weapons too.

I'd like to play that a hell of a lot more than I'd want to play a human Arcane Archer.

[Opustus]

And this "a race does not a character make" argument is partly moot anyway, because then wouldn't it be the same to keep the class elven? If race doesn't matter too much, it follows you might as well play elf to play AA. The sensible case to make for the opening of the class to other races should be rooted in IC reasons: what is AA, how does it reflect specific cultures, what are the implications of the secrets of the trade being shared or learned by other races? Secondly, player preference plays a strong part; I prefer playing non-elves and would greatly prefer playing a gnome AA to an elf AA. This too counters the argument of "race doesn't matter", because most of us are strongly gravitated towards certain races because of the ideas they encompass to ourselves (i.e. how we feel about our character) and to others (i.e. what are the defaults of interaction with other races in the world; what are the stereotypes that affect it).

[CookieMonster]

Is this not what the Ranger - Archer Path is for?

Yes and no. The real benefit of Arcane Archer vs Ranger is the +5 or better damage penetration after just 3 levels.

As a side note AA only get +5 Arrows at level 9. Its +1 every 2 levels.

[Archnon]

Is this not what the Ranger - Archer Path is for?

Yes and no. The real benefit of Arcane Archer vs Ranger is the +5 or better damage penetration after just 3 levels.

As a side note AA only get +5 Arrows at level 9. Its +1 every 2 levels.

It stacks with the +3 bow though, right?

[AstralUniverse]

It stacks with the +3 bow though, right?

No.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Yes and no. The real benefit of Arcane Archer vs Ranger is the +5 or better damage penetration after just 3 levels.

As a side note AA only get +5 Arrows at level 9. Its +1 every 2 levels.

It stacks with the +3 bow though, right?

The ab should stack though i haven't played one recently

[Archnon]

It stacks with the +3 bow though, right?

No.

That would be quite a blow to the class if it was true. The rogue bonuses stack for bows, I know that.

[Best Rich Face]

Your role play makes them unique not your class build.

Character's culture, race and biography makes up a huge portion of what your character is. They're the foundation of your character

Taking those things away makes people upset, as it happened in the scenario you described. Basically, it was expected outcome, and it would be VERY surprising if nobody spoke against such change.

Class choices reflect decisions your character has made in life, and matter as well. They're also important.
Mechanics are your sheet, and arelith has "play your sheet" rule.

Arcane archer is a very elven thing, as is arcane archer with a bow and not something else. A magical long-living race, with supreme archery skills, which is probably aiming a magic arrow at someone right now.

Open it up to everybody, and you'll get magical goblin crossbowman which does the same thing. Of course elf players won't like it one bit.

Allowing non-elves to be arcane archers does not take away the elf's ability to be an arcane archer.

Allowing non-elves to mix magic and archery does not delete the elven culture and history.

Person A having the same Thing that Person B has does not remove the Thing from Person A, unless Person B literally took Person A's Thing and Person B can't have it anymore.

The only things that are getting lost here are: 1. a mechanical reason to play a half elf 2. a feeling of exclusivity.

Arbitrary exclusivity is bad for roleplay environments.

Open it on up, and watch how the apocalypse doesn't happen just like it didn't happen when Subdual was added, or when pirate tattoos were made harder to spot.

[AstralUniverse]

It stacks with the +3 bow though, right?

No.

That would be quite a blow to the class if it was true. The rogue bonuses stack for bows, I know that.

What do you mean 'if it was'. I'm 100% sure telling you Enchant Arrow doesnt stack with ab on weapon because I've played AA and know enough others who did. Rogue bonuses stack on weapons, that includes bow too. Its an entirely different ability, of a different class with different scaling. And lets not derail the thread anymore please.

[DM Rex]

What would qualify as a non elf for expanding this class?
Expanding the defender to all earthkin races had a reason to it. What would be considered close enough in either kinship or alliance to constitute opening this up?

[Apokriphos]

Human base race and associated human subraces such as Deep Imaskari, genasi and tiefling/aasimar/vampire are strict mechanical upgrades due to bonus skills and free feat to drow/elf in most cases.

I think any change would need to address this discrepancy.

[Void]

What would qualify as a non elf for expanding this class?
Expanding the defender to all earthkin races had a reason to it. What would be considered close enough in either kinship or alliance to constitute opening this up?

Somebody else mentioned fey, which is reasonable enough. However, I do not think that Firbolgs would be a good fit, and that leaves only pixies, pretty much, as arelith has no eladrin and the like.

It would also be reasonable to allow non-elves to take the class in extreme circumstances using DM granted token, after they've proved their loyalty and elve-ness to some elf tribe over, say, course of six IRL months. And the number of such exceptions should be capped, for example, at only 1 being active at any time. Like shifters.

Beyond that point there isn't any option that I would seem reasonable, and Irongorn expressed their stance on this matter in the previously linked thread.

------

For those looking to boost ranged damage, however, there are other non-AA options available. For example, "Crossbow Sniper" feat.

Benefit
When using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your Dexterity bonus. If you have the skirmish or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks increases to 60 feet when you are using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.

From Player Handbook II.

This works only with crossbows and nothing else.

That would allow drow to have their own fun without invading elf exclusive access to magical bowmen.
Given how arelith stat boosts stack, however, this one would need careful consideration.

Beyond that point, I saw some servers implement "elemental archer", but this is pure homebrewed nonsense, in my opinon.

[Best Rich Face]

There has to be a mechanical reason to play an elf.

I said half elf. There are mechanical reasons to play an elf (dex bonus! Free language! Skills bonus! Can't sleep)

"Arbitrary" exclusivity is GOOD for roleplaying environment, because it creates distinction between races, and does not turn everybody into a human with slightly different character model. There should be more things that are open only to some races, only to some classes and only to some alignments, because together they create a web of lore and wonder which maintains illusion of a big world with many races and many different cultures.

No, writing, player agency, and events create a web of lore. Distinction between fantasy races still exists independent of mechanics (though elves are still mechanically different). They have their own language, they have their own way of doing things, and they have plenty of different flavor that has nothing to do with game mechanics. As I said before, none of this is deleted by allowing other races to Put Magic On Their Arrows (which you can already do on arelith with assembly templates.) You can still have an elf that follows the great elven tradition of arcane archery, and the environment still contains that tradition.

But by opening up arcane archer to other races, you also offer the chance to say, I don't know, play with the concepts of Dwarven or Gnomish ingenuity and technology to accomplish similar feats. This is, by the way, how arms races work. One society builds a great weapon or powerful soldier, and the other society races to develop either the same effect in their own way, or something to counteract it. And that's a lot more interesting and helpful to a world narrative than "Elves can X because they're so Y."

And if everybody can become an arcane archer, then elves can no longer claim to be the best archers, because mechanics will no longer back up the lore. Lore and mechanics should work in tandem.

Sure they can. Anyone can claim anything. And then, they can back it up in character rather than relying on a mechanical prohibition to be special. Stellen Varg is a legend because he did really cool things with stuff everyone has access to, not because he picked a limited class and touted the supremacy of his culture. And if you want to talk about elves being better archers - well, yes. They get +2 to dex. They will still have the potential to have higher AB with longbow archery than any other race, because halflings can't use longbows.

Your character should not be able to "become anything", but learn their limits and work within them. A human who desperately wants to become an arcane archer should look into reincarnate spell instead.

What is the narrative, in character limit that causes only elves and half elves to able to able to become arcane archers?

It's not time. Half elves life on average only up to 180 years, which is less than Dwarves or Halflings. Wizards, including humans, are known to live longer than a normal human lifespan. And you can become an arcane archer on arelith in 6 IG months or less, regardless of what you've written for your backstory.
It's not culture. Non-elves can learn the language, emulate the mannerisms, and become accepted in our local Elven city.
It's not information. That can very easily be recorded and passed down cross culture.
So what is it?

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I don't have a strong position either way on specifically the idea of non-elven Arcane Archers, but I would say that the fact that we have certain concessions to game balance which require suspension of disbelief to allow us to still treat the setting with integrity (e.g. the fact that a newly-adult elf is roughly as skilled as a newly-adult human) is not a good argument for introducing more of the same.

[Void]

What is the narrative, in character limit that causes only elves and half elves to able to able to become arcane archers?
...
And you can become an arcane archer on arelith in 6 IG months or less,

You're trying to apply rational reasoning to a magical world that has a lot of gaps in and conflicting information in its lore.

Irongorn expressed opinion that elven arcane archers are tied to elven history and therefore proposal to open AAs up was rejected.
Here:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21566&p=176570

As such it comes to lore/DM master to explain why it doesn't work.

The simplest explanation would be....
It requires wielder to be of elven blood.

Maybe that's how the rituals/techniques were designed, maybe they're passed down from Seldarine and watched over. Or they're of fey origin, and do not work on those whose blood is too far removed from fey. And so on.

-----------

If you bring up game mechanics for learning speed, then that will result in shattered suspension of disbelief. Because it would mean that your arcane archer elf/half-elf couldn't achieve a thing in their entire life, until they arrived on arelith and spent 6 months murdering infinitely appearing goblins. So, in case of half-elf it means 20 years of sitting around and twiddling the tumbs, and in case of elf it is 110 years. Until they got to the magic island of infinite monsters.

[AstralUniverse]

It simply takes centuries of practice. How many races have centuries to practice other than elves.

[Best Rich Face]

What is the narrative, in character limit that causes only elves and half elves to able to able to become arcane archers?
...
And you can become an arcane archer on arelith in 6 IG months or less,

You're trying to apply rational reasoning to a magical world that has a lot of gaps in and conflicting information in its lore.

Irongorn expressed opinion that elven arcane archers are tied to elven history and therefore proposal to open AAs up was rejected.
Here:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21566&p=176570

As such it comes to lore/DM master to explain why it doesn't work.

The simplest explanation would be....
It requires wielder to be of elven blood.

Maybe that's how the rituals/techniques were designed, maybe they're passed down from Seldarine and watched over.

Mithreas expressed his opinion that vampires would never be mechanically playable for PCs on arelith, and yet we still have them.
Irongron has changed his mind on other matters before as well. Some of them are even documented in the suggestions forum.

Neither of these facts preclude discussion on the matter, and Irongron's statement does not address the "lore" you keep invoking. I am asking you to please provide the information you are invoking to make your point.

It simply takes centuries of practice. How many races have centuries to practice other than elves.

Dwarves. Halflings.

EDIT: Gnomes. Fey.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm sorry, I wasnt serious and it went too subtle. Half elves can be AAs too. That rules out centuries already. It's simply one of the many things elves dont want to share with none elven bloods.

[Void]

I am asking you to please provide the information you are invoking to make your point.

I believe I already spent several posts explaining things and see no reason to repeat the same thing again.
Mind you, my first response was explaining why people got upset when AA stopped being exclusive on other server.

I don't see a point in trying to convince current server administration into changing their mind, if you want to try that good luck, but I'm out of here.

The way it is going now, the thread will simply get locked.

[Best Rich Face]

I am asking you to please provide the information you are invoking to make your point.

I believe I already spent several posts explaining things and see no reason to repeat the same thing again.
Mind you, my first response was explaining why people got upset when AA stopped being exclusive on other server.

I don't see a point in trying to convince current server administration into changing their mind, if you want to try that good luck, but I'm out of here.

The way it is going now, the thread will simply get locked.

I guess I'm just not concerned if people get upset about this. It's not a change that damages or removes anything beyond a feeling of exclusivity.

If you have pants, and then suddenly I have pants, nothing happens to your pants.

[Void]

I guess I'm just not concerned if people get upset about this. It's not a change that damages or removes anything beyond a feeling of exclusivity.

If people are upset, then it does damage something that is valuable for them.
And like I said, exclusivity is critical to the setting, as it is what makes the world look diverse and magical in the first place. Otherwise you'll end up with bunch of humans with slightly different character models.

If you have pants, and then suddenly I have pants, nothing happens to your pants.

If the pants are one of the kind, and if they're exclusively designed item, then you can end up with a lawsuit on your hands due to copyright/trademark infringement.

Maybe the reason why there are no non-elven arcane archers is because elves murdered everyone who tried to master their technique and was not an elf.

I mean. Think about it.
If you copy a well-guarded secret dwarven alloy. Or duplicate a secret spell of a mighty archmage. Or make a replica of one of the kind holy item from some temple.... Then you'll be in a world of trouble.
Why wouldn't the same thing happen if you try to steal secrets of elven archery?
After all, as Westin said. "Have you ever heard of divination?"

[Wuthering]

Repeating myself but.. What do you guys want opened, the Arcane Archer class itself with all of the elven lore associated, or the ability to make a powerful and effective archer with that sweet +5 or more enchanted arrow?

Because if it's just to have a dedicated archer class why not have an option to take a version that is neither arcane nor elven but just has a "superior aim" ability that's basically the same as Enchanted Arrow or something?

[xanrael]

I'd be pretty stoked for a Deepwood Sniper PrC whether a path or its own thing that could work with other ranged weapons as well and wasn't race restricted.