Arelith

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:53 am (However, as is the norm, listening someone doesn't prevent them from flatfooting you from the first flurry of their attacks.)

This, together with shadowdancers typically being able to get their hide way higher than a spotter can boost their spot, means it's pretty much always an automatic disengage for a free flat-footed first flurry, on Arelith.

the grim yeeter wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:06 pm

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:53 am (However, as is the norm, listening someone doesn't prevent them from flatfooting you from the first flurry of their attacks.)

This, together with shadowdancers typically being able to get their hide way higher than a spotter can boost their spot, means it's pretty much always an automatic disengage for a free flat-footed first flurry, on Arelith.

Yeh, pretty much.

This could be alleviated with gear tables without touching the ability itself, actually. Some endgame gear with healthy dallops of spot that aren't itemized poorly would be a more elegant solution imo.

ReverentBlade wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:03 pm This could be alleviated with gear tables without touching the ability itself, actually. Some endgame gear with healthy dallops of spot that aren't itemized poorly would be a more elegant solution imo.

And it would also render disguises moot. Double win.

ReverentBlade wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:03 pm This could be alleviated with gear tables without touching the ability itself, actually. Some endgame gear with healthy dallops of spot that aren't itemized poorly would be a more elegant solution imo.

The problem with that is you're balancing with the assumption that every opponent will be wearing one gear set, which is extremely unlikely to happen. So on the one hand if you are wearing it, HIPS is useless, on the other it's too strong still. Neither of which is great.

This is exactly the problem with these sort of binary mechanics. When you see these relatively binary interactions pop up elsewhere, they're not as simple and they enable you to not have to build around them.

E.G.
Having a low will save doesn't mean you're going to completely be at a loss when it comes to will spells. You instead need to be very careful about keeping mind immunity up. You are at a disadvantage, for sure, but it's possible to win regardless.

HIPS wasn't always as binary, given UH and easier scroll access.

Wait..

I listen to a target. I attack it. It attacks me back. it gets sneak attack and flank bonuses in the first flurry but I'm not flat-footed because I'm literally attacking?

I've noticed a lot of conflicting information as I've had this discussion with various people. First is the claim that HiPs auto-succeeds. I was experimenting with HiPs the other day vs. a high listen character on PGCC and didn't get the auto-success issue people are mentioning. But I still think the cooldown needs to be increased quite simply because not everyone can get that level of listen, and it gives SD's too much of an advantage over too wide a range of characters. Second, there seems to be uncertainty about whether the cooldown ticks during stealth, with various people saying it does and others saying it doesn't.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:19 pm Wait..

I listen to a target. I attack it. It attacks me back. it gets sneak attack and flank bonuses in the first flurry but I'm not flat-footed because I'm literally attacking?

Sorry I should have included this in my previous post.

If you have blind fight, you can avoid being flatfooted if you hear someone.
However you don't avoid the sneak/flank.

If you spot, then you do avoid sneak, flank and aren't considered ff'd (Even without blind fight). Provided you're attacking the target of course.

Dr. B wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:42 pm I've noticed a lot of conflicting information as I've had this discussion with various people. First is the claim that HiPs auto-succeeds. I was experimenting with HiPs the other day vs. a high listen character on PGCC and didn't get the auto-success issue people are mentioning. But I still think the cooldown needs to be increased quite simply because not everyone can get that level of listen, and it gives SD's too much of an advantage over too wide a range of characters. Second, there seems to be uncertainty about whether the cooldown ticks during stealth, with various people saying it does and others saying it doesn't.

To clarify the timer does not tick whilst stealthed. It only begins as you unstealth. HOWEVER. One way people are avoiding this is to HiPS, move out of LoS and re enter stealth. This starts the timer, meaning you can exit stealth, attack and re enter immediately.

As a dedicated SD player, I would be completely fine with a nerf to HIPS.

HIPS at level 5 is only useful for dips and low levels. If you invest 16 or 19 levels into SD to max out shadowevade, the HIPS is useful in pvp but in PVE you lean on your shadow mostly for sneak attacks and don't need to be hipsing in and out.

You should get hips at level 5, it should be on a 1 turn cool down and it should reduce by 1 round per SD level past 5 but not below 1 round. So a level 14 SD would max out their cooldown at 6 seconds.

Though I will say that the abundance of SD's is not a product of HIPS with an eye to pvp but just the pure tankiness of the shadow which enables you to solo most content with the exception of epic dungeon bosses. Being able to solo content is really valuable for some players, especially ones who have limited play time or weird play hours.

Though I honestly think, whether you are talking about hips, or monk AC, or even divine saves, then it should all scale with class levels. Any attribute or quality that is unique to a class, is granted by the class automatically, and cannot be obtained with general feat should always scale with the characters investment in that class.

Hips seems fine , you slow down when using it and there are still true seeing scrolls to play with

-stick- wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:05 pm Hips seems fine , you slow down when using it and there are still true seeing scrolls to play with

Did you just decide to not read anything said in here before posting?

Zaphiel wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 am Hide in plain sight feat note from wiki:

The benefit of this feat lies in the "while being observed" part. Normally, anyone who sees a character entering stealth mode continues to see that character. With this feat, a successful spot roll is required to continue to see the character.

Dunno what makes you guys to think it is auto success.

I made a size modification here to highlight the important part of your point. In order to understand the "automatic" success, you have to dig a little further and follow the context of the stealth mechanic that is at the root of this ability.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth

The most surprising mechanic of stealth mode might be that hiding does not require anything to hide behind; for example, it is possible to hide in the middle of an empty room. However, stealth mode does not make the hider disappear (unless hide in plain sight applies). That is, a creature that could see the hider at the moment of entering stealth mode continues to see the hider until something breaks line-of-sight.

When you have HiPS and enter stealth, the game always treats you as if you aren't in LoS when entering stealth, which is why it works at all and the character can successfully hide while being observed.

When a hider enters the line of sight of another creature, opposed hide and spot rolls (repeated periodically) determine if the hider is seen. Once seen, the hider remains seen by that creature until line-of-sight is broken—additional opposed checks are not necessary. If the hider remains unseen, the opposed move silently and listen rolls may still result in the hider being heard. Unlike spot checks, a successful listen check applies only until the next check is made. So a hider that is unseen but heard one round could become undetected the next.

Stealth rolls are made every six seconds, but are checked more often than that because there are several situational modifiers to the rolls. (For these factors, see the listen and spot articles.) When a player character is doing the detecting, the opposed rolls (with current modifiers) are checked five times per second, while a detecting non-player character makes these checks every four seconds.

The underlined part is where we get into engine limitations. You enter stealth with HiPS- the game treats you as not being in LoS for that first, immediate moment, which is what allows HiPS to work. You then become a stealthed creature inside the LoS of another creature, triggering 5 detection checks against you per second. Until this first detection check happens, because the game functionally removed you from LoS, it is not possible to SPOT you, because no spot checks have yet been made against you. You went into stealth- you disappear. A split-second later, someone makes a detect roll against you- before that split second, you simply didn't exist to them (unless they have true seeing up).

IF your detection score is high enough, depending on the timing, server lag, etc, those 5 checks per second fire pretty rapidly, and the HiPSer will fade back into view on your screen.

Listen can go through solid objects such as walls and doors, but creatures that are heard one round can become not heard the next. In contrast, Spot requires line of sight, but once a creature is spotted, it does not become un-spotted unless line of sight is broken or HiPS is invoked.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Listen

Listen isn't restricted by LoS the way spot is- so perhaps if you have an ungodly listen score you might have a partial bypass for this (your targeting options will still be restricted, though). However, listen is almost always considered inferior to spot on every server for its targeting limitations, and because the modifier list (available at the listen link) for listen is stacked blatantly against the detector, and if you were worried about the odd high listen score that can compete with a fully kitted stealth character, you'd use a silence spell/wand/scroll/potion on yourself and listen would no longer apply to you at all (opposed listen checks automatically fail against silenced creatures).


TL;DR
This is the engine limitation that I keep bringing up. You can't be spotted until a spot roll is made against you. A spot roll is not made against you until you are a hidden creature IN LINE OF SIGHT. When you trigger HiPS, for a brief instant, the game treats you as if you are NOT in LoS.

Build a ranger with max wisdom and spot. Spam cure light wounds on a target with HiPS without casting haste on yourself so it stacks up in your action queue. Have the HiPS user hit stealth while wearing full plate (or just ungeared if you aren't trying to come up with a fancy build to do that with), and your action queue should cancel. If I'm wrong, fantastic, and I apologize for my years of misinformation on this subject, but having used this fact to egregious effect on Antiworld (a highly competitive arena server) and being unable to do it on Bastions of War (they disabled HiPS entirely for the reasons mentioned and so they could take away the auto-stealth break of True Seeing, including removing TS from shapechanging forms) prior to EE, I'm very confident in my statement.

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:02 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:19 pm Wait..

I listen to a target. I attack it. It attacks me back. it gets sneak attack and flank bonuses in the first flurry but I'm not flat-footed because I'm literally attacking?

Sorry I should have included this in my previous post.

If you have blind fight, you can avoid being flatfooted if you hear someone.
However you don't avoid the sneak/flank.

If you spot, then you do avoid sneak, flank and aren't considered ff'd (Even without blind fight). Provided you're attacking the target of course.

Ah blindfight does the trick. I guess I understand now why you were so insistent on including that mechanic in your calculation in the AA thread. Well, thanks for the clarification on both subjects then.

The reason some people believe there's auto-success is simply because they suspect (and I too, honestly) that hips simply treat you as entering stealth mode out of LoS, and then there's definitely no spot check on the initial round when you've entered. This is a speculation. I wont argue about that but it really LOOKS like it sometimes so I dont know.

Now I can respond to your ideas from a more educated stand point.

I think the cooldown should start when you exist stealth and not stop ticking if you enter it again. Your idea is good and I think it would offer a lot of very needed counterplay against this ability but if the cooldown stops ticking every time you cornersneak normally it will ultimately hurt the unskilled players the most, while those who are used to cooldown management almost go through this nerf without feeling it save for the fact the cooldown is effectively a bit longer. Extending the cooldown even more, to 18 seconds from breaking stealth (you said 30 sec. I think it's drastically too long and sucks out all the fun) is really the final nail imo.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:02 pm Stuff

This is incorrect.

When you HIPS, a spot check occurs immediately. The game engine doesn't put you out of LOS or anything of the sort.

If you succeed this check, they never disappear, not even for a tiny moment. You don't drop your action queue, you aren't flatfooted, it's as if someone stealthed without hips in front of you.

As of very recently (either via beamdog or arelith) a listen check also happens at this time and the same occurs - you won't drop your action queue. (This didn't used to be the case, it used to only be spot that did that) (Underlined text is wrong)

HIPS is very strong regardless of the above, because the CD is so low and buggy that it's almost a requirement to be able to beat this check in order to combat anyone with HIPS.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:10 pm Ah blindfight does the trick. I guess I understand now why you were so insistent on including that mechanic in your calculation in the AA thread. Well, thanks for the clarification on both subjects then.

The reason some people believe there's auto-success is simply because they suspect (and I too, honestly) that hips simply treat you as entering stealth mode out of LoS, and then there's definitely no spot check on the initial round when you've entered. This is a speculation. I wont argue about that but it really LOOKS like it sometimes so I dont know.

Now I can respond to your ideas from a more educated stand point.

I think the cooldown should start when you exist stealth and not stop ticking if you enter it again. Your idea is good and I think it would offer a lot of very needed counterplay against this ability but if the cooldown stops ticking every time you cornersneak normally it will ultimately hurt the unskilled players the most, while those who are used to cooldown management almost go through this nerf without feeling it save for the fact the cooldown is effectively a bit longer. Extending the cooldown even more, to 18 seconds from breaking stealth (you said 30 sec. I think it's drastically too long and sucks out all the fun) is really the final nail imo.

Yeh hips and stealth in general, is really strong - even if you can't do it in someone's face. If you have to use LoS there's counterplay though, so it's fine.

I think most people believe that because in Arelith's current environment there's very few gear/build setups that will reliably detect a geared HIPS'er immediately and even less that will detect while they're in combat (due to the +10 modifier you get if you're in combat and trying to detect). So it's nearly always the case that the HIPS'ing person wins (Which is the problem).

It should really reset completely when someone stealths, rather than pausing the CD (So you'd have to remain 30 seconds out of stealth to get HIPS again). If it doesn't, you'll ultimately be able to double-dip on stealth bonuses. Which is a big problem. HIPS is a very strong offensive and defensive ability and will remain that even after a cooldown nerf, the only difference is opening up some counterplay to people, which it currently lacks in spades.

30 Seconds might be too long, but I think the dynamic of HIPS maintaining significant impact but 'fewer' uses, is better than it being made less significant and having more uses. One of them eventually has to happen.

Sockss wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:16 pm Stuff That Refutes

I will take it in good faith that you have tested and verified this mechanically more recently than I have taken time to participate in Arena servers. Which makes me very wrong, despite personal experience and the text documentation implying otherwise very strongly.

I apologize for propagating misinformation on the subject - I'll refrain from commenting on the subject in the future.

Ignore what I posted about listen not breaking action queue when someone hips's and you hear them. It does, however you can retarget immediately. Spotting a HIPS'er remains as it always did (unbreaking of queue).

I blame my nameless testing partner. (though it doesn't amount to much difference.)