Saveless WoF Blind

[Defense Light Fables]

It's been worse in the past, it was a saveless permanent blind.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Word_of_faith

It's much better now, but the fact that everyone can use it is a bit iffy to me.

[Twohand]

When knocked down, a character is immune to further knockdown attempts for 18 seconds. That's how knockdown spam was dealt with. With that in mind, what if being hit by a Word of Faith makes the character immune to blindness for a few seconds as well, after the WoF blindness effect passes? In that case, should the spell have its blindness duration raise from 9 to, say, 12 seconds or something?

[AstralUniverse]

All your posts make me want to see WoF in full friendly fire mode.

[Kaeldre]

Some reasonable aspects to consider in this discussion is the action economy in one versus one scenarios and teambattles.

One versus one:
The caster takes 3-6 seconds to inflict 9 seconds of blindness, subject to spell resistance.
The target takes 3 seconds to cure blindness by way of potions.

So, at best you are using 3 seconds of your time to inflict 9 seconds of blindness on your opponent if we ignore spell resistance. If your opponent possess cure blindness potions both will be at a stand still, since it takes an equal or greater amount of time to cast the spell than to cure it.

In essence, if you possess cure blindness potions WoF blindness wont be an issue. In fact, the target will gain an advantage since the caster is far more limited in the amount of spells per day compared to the amount of potions the target can carry. Spell slots are valuable to any caster and you've just had them waste theirs.

Teambattle:
Needless to say, it is strong to be able to blind a group of enemies for a short duration consistently. Though, when more people are involved the amount of countermeasures also increase. It is more likely your opponents will have SR races and monks intermingled in their group. Any cleric or druid can provide SR for the batallion. Not to mention that there are other means of gaining spell resistance in-game.

Then there is also a question of experience. If you are facing more seasoned players it is quite likely that you will see them disperse to mitigate the effect. And then we're back to one on one trading spells for potions. All in all, I think it comes down to player knowledge, experience and preparation.

[Shadowy Reality]

The 26 SR helm is irrelavant against clerics, nearly all cleric builds go 27 cleric.

Drinking a potion is 3 seconds, but in many cases you will still take another 3 seconds to start attacking, it is not instantaneous, NWN is wonky like that.

Drinking a potion removes stances and gets an AOO. That cleric is going to have summons, no cleric is going to spam WoF just for the sake of it.

Let's not fool ourselves in arguing that it is a stalemate between cleric and its opponent, it is not, so long as the opponent is chugging potions, the cleric is in control and winning.

It is really strong vs a single opponent, massive against more.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont find this all that wonky actually, after playing a spellsword that makes theirown haste and truestrike potions.

If you're not hasted:
It takes the cleric 6 seconds to cast, and it takes you 3 seconds to drink but you can only attack in the next round, 3 seconds later.

If you're both hasted:
It takes the cleric 3 seconds to cast and it takes you 3 seconds to drink the potion, you can attack almost instantly after that.

Given the spell doesnt deal damage, the only problem is when the cleric is trading their action economy with yours while 3 vamps are eating you. To that I ask, why is Wof not friendly fire at least to summons and henchmen.

[NauVaseline]

Word of Faith only wrecks people who panic when the screen goes dark. just keep remove blindness/deafness potions on your quickbar and you're good to go

[Aniel]

WoF has a save. I think we're done here boys.

As tempted as I am to just quote Ork and leave it at that, I'll elaborate some of my thoughts on WoF as someone that played a healer many months and was involved in pretty much nonstop PvP.

I thought applying a save to begin with to WoF was a mistake. Personally, I would've left it exactly as it was before. Scrolls were nullified by SR helmets, and it served as one of the only useful offensive spells cleric had access to. It was easily countered with a press of a potion that would in an AoE remove all blindness from all allies. So only a single person would need to spend 3 seconds to drink the potion and clear everyone.

I believe where the idealized unfairness of the spell came from is that because there was no save at all in the spell, ultimately battle clerics could use it to push their opponents into compromising situations. Some alternative ideas I had at the time were to limit it by base wisdom so that an ability score of 19 or 20 (probably > 23) would proc a save for the blind wholesale and that above that threshold it'd remain a saveless spell. This would've effectively nullified scroll spam but it already wasn't too great with SR hats and when potions vs. scrolls actually generated an action economy advantage.

What the nerf ended up doing, unfortunately, was two things: It was primarily a loss of power to dedicated caster cleric archetypes, and it necessitated that caster cleric archetypes have to take evocation to try to make the saving throw decent on one of their few offensive choices.

The 9 second blind isn't that strong. It's very well in the territory of something you can just run away from and wait it out if you need to. Or you could use a potion if you needed it removed ASAP. It's a significantly weaker effect than it used to be.

[Polokko]

It was easily countered with a press of a potion that would in an AoE remove all blindness from all allies. So only a single person would need to spend 3 seconds to drink the potion and clear everyone.

I really think that's irrelevant. It isn't possible to communicate quickly enough for that kind of coordination on nwn, especially mid fight. Everybody needs to deal with their own issue because you can't rely on someone else to be dealing with them for you, and in the moment it's nearly impossible for someone to state their intention to be the one to fix the problem. You can't go: "I've got this." mid fight and swig a potion, sure someone could make a macro for it but that really shouldn't be expected. IMO the point you made is only really relevant if people are using voice communication, and they shouldn't be while PVPing.

Yes, you could organise before the fight with your group that Freddy will be your blindness potion drinker, but what if Freddy isn't caught in the area and so doesn't realise that everyone else is blind, or what if Freddy is just out of range, or CC'd, or dead. If you're relying on Freddy to be drinking the potion for you, and he can't, then you're going to be sat there blind and getting murdered. Ok, you could make an order of who does it? Freddy is dead, it goes to Timmy, Timmy is dead, it goes to Bob, ect. That's going to be too hard to keep track of in larger fights, Timmy who is sat there looking at a dark screen isn't going to realise Freddy was just outside the range, and wasn't blinded, so he's not dealing with the problem because as far as he knows, Freddy is already taking that potion to his mouth.

Moving onto the topic of the thread, I'm not going to comment on the overall balance of where it is now, I don't think I've done any PVP since a save was added to it, but you are ignoring the point that others have made of WoF spam, which was what I see to be the largest issue brought up in this thread. How repeatedly casting the spell can completely shut someone down from being able to do anything, while your summons are just doing whatever they want on an easy target.

[Might-N-Magic]

1, Just about nothing should get by without a check or save.
2. Remove Blindness should last after cast for sometime.

And somewhat related, GSanct needs a counter. Other servers have added things like potions or items that pull someone out of it.

Potions of Attunement, Portal Lenses, and all manner of -Teleport shouldn't work if a hostile is anywhere remotely in view.

[Kuma]

Potions of Attunement, Portal Lenses, and all manner of -Teleport shouldn't work if a hostile is anywhere remotely in view.

this seems extreme.

Gsanc already doesn't let you summon things, and is basically just an escape ticket or buffing at this stage, and there's sources of True Sight that pierce it. You can also dispel them with AoEs.

I do think that a source of blindness immunity could be useful, though- whether that be a linger couple of rounds from a cast of Remove Blindness or otherwise.

[Aniel]

It was easily countered with a press of a potion that would in an AoE remove all blindness from all allies. So only a single person would need to spend 3 seconds to drink the potion and clear everyone.

I really think that's irrelevant. It isn't possible to communicate quickly enough for that kind of coordination on nwn, especially mid fight. Everybody needs to deal with their own issue because you can't rely on someone else to be dealing with them for you, and in the moment it's nearly impossible for someone to state their intention to be the one to fix the problem. You can't go: "I've got this." mid fight and swig a potion, sure someone could make a macro for it but that really shouldn't be expected. IMO the point you made is only really relevant if people are using voice communication, and they shouldn't be while PVPing.

Yes, you could organise before the fight with your group that Freddy will be your blindness potion drinker, but what if Freddy isn't caught in the area and so doesn't realise that everyone else is blind, or what if Freddy is just out of range, or CC'd, or dead. If you're relying on Freddy to be drinking the potion for you, and he can't, then you're going to be sat there blind and getting murdered. Ok, you could make an order of who does it? Freddy is dead, it goes to Timmy, Timmy is dead, it goes to Bob, ect. That's going to be too hard to keep track of in larger fights, Timmy who is sat there looking at a dark screen isn't going to realise Freddy was just outside the range, and wasn't blinded, so he's not dealing with the problem because as far as he knows, Freddy is already taking that potion to his mouth.

Moving onto the topic of the thread, I'm not going to comment on the overall balance of where it is now, I don't think I've done any PVP since a save was added to it, but you are ignoring the point that others have made of WoF spam, which was what I see to be the largest issue brought up in this thread. How repeatedly casting the spell can completely shut someone down from being able to do anything, while your summons are just doing whatever they want on an easy target.

I don't think that's actually a problem, that's just the upside of the spell. Scrolls are very weak, and if people are spending spell slots on it then they're in limited supply. Similar to how there are plenty of other spells that have guaranteed effects but are perfectly fine.

Regarding potion drinking, it's a good skill to develop and is a reasonable means of counterplay. I'm perfectly okay with a mechanic requiring teamwork or some coordination to trivialize. Skill and good mechanical foundations should be rewarded, and things like an area of effect blind that has tools to deal with it are a good way to go about it.

1, Just about nothing should get by without a check or save.
2. Remove Blindness should last after cast for sometime.

And somewhat related, GSanct needs a counter. Other servers have added things like potions or items that pull someone out of it.

Potions of Attunement, Portal Lenses, and all manner of -Teleport shouldn't work if a hostile is anywhere remotely in view.

1.) Only if all attack rolls have a fort save to be negated.
2.) That's actually an interesting idea, I wouldn't mind something like it for a very short duration.

The counter to gsanc is a high CL greater dispel with a bit of luck or a disjunction.

The counter to potions of attunement, portal lenses, and other forms of teleportation is with epic spell focus: abjuration and using its epic command to block teleportation.

[Aren]

Having Remove Blindness act as a counter that lasts something like 18 seconds post application, would be a viable solution to WoF spam in my humble opinion.

[TheRagingGoblin]

1, Just about nothing should get by without a check or save.
2. Remove Blindness should last after cast for sometime.

And somewhat related, GSanct needs a counter. Other servers have added things like potions or items that pull someone out of it.

Potions of Attunement, Portal Lenses, and all manner of -Teleport shouldn't work if a hostile is anywhere remotely in view.

1.) Only if all attack rolls have a fort save to be negated.
2.) That's actually an interesting idea, I wouldn't mind something like it for a very short duration.

The counter to gsanc is a high CL greater dispel with a bit of luck or a disjunction.

The counter to potions of attunement, portal lenses, and other forms of teleportation is with epic spell focus: abjuration and using its epic command to block teleportation.

1) Isn't it called an attack roll? A check here already exists.

[Shadowy Reality]

Word of Faith is by no means useless, even if we removed the blindness component, it still pretty much automatically banishes all summons when cast by a cleric, on this note alone it is already worth being slotted by every cleric and favoured soul.

Having a save for 9 seconds is kinda moot, in PvP more often than not a 9 seconds blindness is the same as permanent blindness, you will have to deal with it asap if you want to have any chance of winning.

I am entirely in agreement with other suggestions here, give it the Knockdown treatment, but associated with Remove Blindness. After you remove blindness through Remove Blindness (not restoration) you are immune to blindness for 18 seconds.

[-XXX-]

WoF lacks a viable proactive counterplay atm.

Before TS used to fill that role as it allowed you to see normally even if your character was blinded, but TS got nerfed into oblivion, leaving WoF only with reactive counter measures like remove blindness and restoration effects. These come at a great cost of tempo, which is often one of the deciding factors during PvP encounters.

[AstralUniverse]

Adding the remove blindness/deafness spell short immunity (say... 9 seconds immunity) to blindness/deafness would be interesting. It MIGHT break the interaction between casters and people who want to counter casters with Silence so make sure to check that out if you code something like that.

[Kaeldre]

Let us not digress from the point of this thread, which is to discuss the saveless blind effect of Word of Faith.

In my previous post I didnt realize that Remove Blindness/Deafness is an aoe effect as well.

So, in essence we have a spell which negative effect can be wholly countered by a potion in both single combat and group combat.

You dont have to have an answer to everything, but there already is one for everyone against this spell effect.

[Might-N-Magic]

1, Just about nothing should get by without a check or save.
2. Remove Blindness should last after cast for sometime.

And somewhat related, GSanct needs a counter. Other servers have added things like potions or items that pull someone out of it.

Potions of Attunement, Portal Lenses, and all manner of -Teleport shouldn't work if a hostile is anywhere remotely in view.

1.) Only if all attack rolls have a fort save to be negated.
2.) That's actually an interesting idea, I wouldn't mind something like it for a very short duration.

The counter to gsanc is a high CL greater dispel with a bit of luck or a disjunction.

The counter to potions of attunement, portal lenses, and other forms of teleportation is with epic spell focus: abjuration and using its epic command to block teleportation.

1. it's called armor class...
3. "Let's gate all that invulnerability nonsense with a bottleneck just about no one has because that's a great way to balance things" said no employed game designer ever.

[Ork]

I really like Might-n-magic's second point. Remove blindness/deafness should also provide immunity to those conditions for a short period of time like a reverse clarity cooldown. This would immediately negate WoF spam. I like the saveless bit only because battleclerics would be negatively impacted to preparing WoF.

[Aren]

I really like Might-n-magic's second point. Remove blindness/deafness should also provide immunity to those conditions for a short period of time like a reverse clarity cooldown. This would immediately negate WoF spam. I like the saveless bit only because battleclerics would be negatively impacted to preparing WoF.

This.

[Aniel]

It'll be a scary day when people here find another 9-second duration buff that comes with infinite quantity.

[Jack Oat]

Working
As
Intended.

[Marisakis]

high level
tabletop
is broken

Maybe some Blindness immunity items in the loot matrices? Or yea, that potion solution can work well.
Not sure what other 9 second buffs you could mean, Aniel. Timestop was nerfed, True Strike potion/wand doesn't -really- provide 9 benefit seconds for the user

[Biolab00]

If i'm not wrong, WOF is already nerfed recently, it's been several months since the nerf.
So it's going to be nerf again?

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Maybe there's many other more spells, let me think, i supposed i can find some too.