Arelith

Apokriphos wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:05 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am

Dr. B wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:09 am Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

Snark, but at least your snark strives to make a point, so thanks for that, and I'll address it-
...
Why not? We made scrolls lore-based. I also don't understand how anyone can make such a statement in this discussion with a straight face if they aren't presently raging and crusading against the existence of shadowmage, which gets not only spot as a class skill with its full caster level progression, but also hide, move silently, listen, and HiPS. Unless the stance is that only evil-deity-locked classes deserve to get toys from other classes.

Shadowmage PCs do not have access to hide or move silently, let alone listen. They are wizards in every way with the exception of losing permanent access to Evocation in all its forms (WoF scrolls, wands and items included).

They have to cross-class to get access to these skills, the same as any other PC.

They have to cross-class into shadowdancer, the built-in sacrifice of which is supposed to be losing your caster level advancement to do so, but they get a customized, Arelith exclusive script that eliminates the opportunity cost of lost caster levels. There's also zero opportunity costs in the way of class slots, because it's literally the best multi-class option for the path. And if you can't function with full spells, HiPS, and full stealth, you still have a third class to dip for discipline.

It's like saying that multiclassing as a Harper Mage is a cost for any good aligned mage. It's not true- it's a net positive even after the feat requirements. There's pretty much nothing better they can take to be a better mage.

Dipping 4 SD also allows you to push more of your mage feats into the latest of your epic levels if you dip, which means you'll have a higher spellcraft score and be able to do more of the better mage feat things than the shadowmage that doesn't dip.

Ork wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:11 am If you can't see how this "exploit" would've ruined server balance, I don't think your opinion on balance should even be entertained.

I see how it affects your vision of Arelith balance, but I've never been secretive about the fact that I believe characters should be more reliant on other characters and less reliant on their inventory, purchased with ridiculous amounts of gold that were pretty much never meant to be in the hands of a single character, in table-top or in any of the OC content.

I also think I functioned just fine before the "fix," including on my non-mage alts - everyone else's obsession with being able to be invulnerable to everything (read:everyONE) else all the time from something they have in their inventory is their anxiety problem, not mine- life goes on, or you die. Fortunately, it's a game, and there's a respawn button - I think if there weren't five million disposable inventory solutions to all IC problems, that people might actually worry a little less about "winning shotgun PVP," and have a little more time to focus on their stories, or even be creative and discover "outside the box" battle tactics.

At the end of the day, we gave shadowdancers caster-level progression. Making a big deal about giving a class spot in the wake of that seems disingenuous to me, using my opinion about an unrelated subject to justify it more-so, and while I'm all for spirited debates, lately we always seem to be on opposite sides and I can't help but wonder if your only real investment in the thread was to take a pot shot at me or not - I'd prefer to think otherwise, but based on your sole comment so far, as well as an earlier removed one and Dr. B's, perhaps you can see how I might be feeling like there's a trend going on here?

Do you have anything substantive to say about any of the points relative to the OP other than an opinion about my qualifications as a gamer? Because I'm honestly fine if you feel that I'm the worst player in the world. I want to know why you think giving spot to mages who can already get it by dipping shadowdancer if they're Shar-worshippers is going to break the server.

Hinty wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:48 am Believe he is referring to their ability to take 9 levels in Shadowdancer, gaining access to all those skills and still get full caster level progression.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:56 am ...
There's also zero opportunity costs in the way of class slots, because it's literally the best multi-class option for the path. And if you can't function with full spells, HiPS, and full stealth, you still have a third class to dip for discipline.

Shadowmage PCs taking shadowdancer levels for skill access is a very poor decision.

Especially 9 levels of it. Such a build would completely miss out on bonus epic feats, discipline, and the far superior option of Ranger, bard or specialist dips. This is actually also clearly referenced in the wiki on the path itself.



By comparison, an Evocation focused non-path Sorcerer with Paladin Dip and divine shield is likely the strongest mage on the server in Pvp AND has spot as a class skill.

Apokriphos wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:44 am

Hinty wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:48 am Believe he is referring to their ability to take 9 levels in Shadowdancer, gaining access to all those skills and still get full caster level progression.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:56 am ...
There's also zero opportunity costs in the way of class slots, because it's literally the best multi-class option for the path. And if you can't function with full spells, HiPS, and full stealth, you still have a third class to dip for discipline.

Shadowmage PCs taking shadowdancer levels for skill access is a very poor decision.

Especially 9 levels of it. Such a build would completely miss out on bonus epic feats, discipline, and the far superior option of Ranger, bard or specialist dips. This is actually also clearly referenced in the wiki on the path itself.



By comparison, an Evocation focused non-path Sorcerer with Paladin Dip and divine shield is likely the strongest mage on the server in Pvp AND has spot as a class skill.

I'll give you, 9 levels of it looks terrible to me. Four levels, however, is all gain, and no loss- provided you take them in an appropriate span of levels to not inhibit your spellcasting feat selection (not hard). They gain, in no particular order: uncanny dodge, darkvision, evasion, shadow evade, shadow daze, a one-hit-wonder pve guard shadow, and a juicy selection of skills to dump all those banked up points if they're an int-based wizard... which again, includes spot and listen.

What exactly are we contesting is lost by dipping shadowdancer on a shadowmage (and why is a divine dip evocation sorcerer relevant other than as another point in my favor? Neither blackguard nor paladin get spot as class skills in vanilla- that's an Arelith perk, too, suggesting it's a viable option.) You still have a third class if you need discipline, and shadowdancer didn't hurt your caster level in the process.

They gain, in no particular order: uncanny dodge, darkvision, evasion, shadow evade, shadow daze, a one-hit-wonder pve guard shadow, and a juicy selection of skills to dump all those banked up points if they're an int-based wizard... which again, includes spot and listen.

useless
useless
not needed
useless
useless
useless
poor skill selection

there is a reason every shadowmage does 27 / 3 ranger, bard, or specialist.

taking shadowdancer as a shadowmage should literally de level you and force you to take something else.

Shadow daze is not quite useless. Save scales on int doesn't get spellcraft save bonus and it ignores mind immunity I believe. It's niche but it's better in Shadow mage than regular SD

Shadowdancer dip is better than wizard 30

Either common dip (ranger/Bard) is generally better than shadow dancer.

monkeywithstick wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 10:04 am Shadow daze is not quite useless. Save scales on int doesn't get spellcraft save bonus and it ignores mind immunity I believe. It's niche but it's better in Shadow mage than regular SD

what about sorc shadow mages

Kuma wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 10:51 am

monkeywithstick wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 10:04 am Shadow daze is not quite useless. Save scales on int doesn't get spellcraft save bonus and it ignores mind immunity I believe. It's niche but it's better in Shadow mage than regular SD

what about sorc shadow mages

sorc shadow mages suck. Not enough skill points.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am

Dr. B wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:09 am Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

Snark, but at least your snark strives to make a point, so thanks for that, and I'll address it-

Snark or not, it's still true. It's what you're wanting. Make MY class of choice able to do everything! (Which, technically it is. Mages are the most overpowered thing on this server.)

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am Why not? We made scrolls lore-based.

You say that like it wasn't the worst decision we've seen in recent memory, decried by everyone playing the game as "dumb." Congratulations, we've now made everyone from the dumbest fighter to the canniest rogue master historians and antique appraisers, just to use scrolls. At least with UMD it made sense.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am We also "fixed" Beamdog's "bug," which was actually an exploit fix, and gave every mundane character the ability to be harder to dispel than a level 27 caster, and this change was wildly applauded despite it giving caster-exclusive advantages to non-casters.

Easy, because it's not a bug. You do realize that level 30 scrolls, potions, wands, rods, and staves exist in the FR I hope...

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am I'd be fine with your suggestion there at the end, but I feel that claiming giving spot to wizards and sorcerers risks overall homogenization either ignores the current state of affairs (where shadowmages already get this, in addition to way more), or it ignores the eternal dilemma of any build that isn't wisdom-focused; even if you give a sorc or a wizard spot as a class skill and they max it, they still don't have a wisdom score of +15 to pair with it, and the advantage still goes to the stealther by a solid 10-15 points, assuming both sides max their gear investments- spells that give boosts to spot and gear bonuses collectively stack at +50, so the spells won't give any extra advantage over the sneakers and they still wind up with a clear and present advantage.

But something should be done to give (plain) mages an option longer than six seconds, either way.

Good lord, this entire argument is literally "I can't do everything and this makes me unhappy. Also, I'm intensely jealous of shadowmages, but giving up Evocation is icky."

Honestly, if anything needs to be done on this server, the design team needs to bring on someone from another server to look at it. The first words out of their mouths will probably be, "Wait a minute, you're still using True Sight breaks stealth automatically? Hahahahaha, Jesus Christ." Next words will be about nerfing pixies probably.