Arms & Armour:

[Ascended Mage]

NWN become broken and boring somewhere at 20th levels and higher.
In a low magic world and with 1-10 levels there will be rarely issues with arms and armour and would never appear questions how some classes get +20 more AC or even AB sometimes when fighter all that have is just mundane armour and arms.

From 1-10 levels it all depends on armour and heavy investment in potions/wands, it all depends on how good quality weapon character has. There no crazy numbers and full plate armour are powerful and high sought.
I think Arelith's devs good at trying to balance all this. Giving Damage Immunities to some armours, giving some bonuses to pure classes, etc. But I think as long there is 20-30 levels there always will be many questions about armour and weapons and they will be never answered properly about "how and why". That is an issue just in game itself and no haks/scripts can even try to keep some things close to realism and make a balance between sword, magic and armour.

Just look at other answers, people discussing about AC and AB what are in 50-60 what is normal for Arelith. How one can discuss about role of armour and arms in game world and discuss about culture of it when it is just 50 lbs of 8 AC and nothing more. It will always hard to feel value of armour and arms with such big numbers and levels around.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Adamantine Full Plate is a bad joke. You can get more AC out of an enchanted silk shirt. We could make Adamantine armor give +6 to AC and it would still be the weaker option.

[Amnesy]

Armors could have reviewed both damage immunity and damage resistance. Playing more with the idea of soaking dmg while keeping your ac mediocre.

Like instead of each piece os same armor set having different immunities, they could all contribute and focus towards that armor type area of expertise.
Like heavy plate having more DI vs piercing and slashing on top of some DR on them, while not protecting vs bludgeoning.

The same could be said about other rock/paper/scissors approach. Red dragon half-plate could give more fire immunity so it is actually worthwhile to use it vs fire oriented enemies but still should have regular armor perks of that armor type (or more Red D item for the set being introduced in the drop table).

It also adds into weapon picks, scimitar against soft targets, spears/daggers vs light armored while mauls are better vs heavily armored targets without any change to the actual weapon.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'll probably swing back for a more substantive post later since some wrong things have been said on the internet, but don't have a lot of time now.

[...]

Will be back later to talk AC and AB ranges.

I'm still waiting. I love your thoughts.

[jomonog]

Dont know highest AB but it seems AA can get 68 or so and perhaps also some sort of WM/COT build around that on burst (in divine wrath)?

Highest AC seem to be about low 80s in IE (or high 80s if you count epic dodge as +5).

So that still leaves the best AB builds in range of hitting the best AC builds (which seems right to me given both have specifically built for offense/defense at the cost of the other).

Note - not counting meme builds and also only based on what I hear so there may be "secret" builds that people are sitting on that break those ranges

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

So I would be justified in stating at this point:

* NWN & Arelith, as a result, are unequivocally "Defensive dominant." The Maximum Obtainable AC is (considerably) greater than the Maximum Obtainable AB.

I would question: if the maximum obtainable AC is so high, this is a barrier to creating challenging PvE content.

What effect does this have on the playing environment? For PvP? For PvE? In your view? If you could change *one thing* about the AB / AC, Arms & Armour setup of Arelith, what would it be?

[jomonog]

I think that's wrong because having high AC doesn't mean you beat anything. You just dont die. Having too high AB on the other hand would be a massive imbalance because it would tear through everything.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I think that's wrong because having high AC doesn't mean you beat anything. You just dont die. Having too high AB on the other hand would be a massive imbalance because it would tear through everything.

In a PvE environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Risk vs. Reward is compromised.

In a PvP environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Player-player bonne volante (good will) is compromised.

Too high AB on the other hand? Too high AB and adequate AC? Yes - the results might be the same - a win. But there would be some hit point loss also.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

As per that other thread about Improved Expertise and APR, a high-AC target usually has other defensive weaknesses. It just takes a smart player/character one second to realize that if they're camping in 70+ AC, you have to go after them a different way (make them flat footed, target their saves, etc.)

[dallion43]

Highest AC seem to be about low 80s in IE (or high 80s if you count epic dodge as +5).

Out of curiosity, what build reaches 80+ AC with e.dodge, SB/Pal?

Thank you in advance :p.

[Scurvy Cur]

Bard 4/ PM 16/SD 10, dex based.

AC before improved expertise is about 72 on a human, halfling will nudge that 2 points higher.

Please note that the only thing this build does is survive melee really really well and summon a dracolich 1/day. It's not good by any stretch of the imagination, and I've not seen it played since EDK went to a short-term summon instead of a long term dungeon clear summon.

goodbey dartak

[Halibutthead]

If thats true, doesnt it become kind of an outlier, and therefore irrelevant?

Now, I've mostly played casters (with a few recent exceptions), so this ab/ac stuff is barely more than voodoo to me, but this has been an interesting discussion

[Shrouded Wanderer]

A lot of topics arent covering automatic hits either


Damage dealt is never a hard Zero. High AC is still hit for a natural 20 which is always a crit. Making up a huge amount of damage over time

The only outlier in this is PM which is crit immune. However most PM builds have insanely low damage output making the time to death longer and more drawn out meaning they just need to run away.

[dallion43]

It is just my opinion, but when posting numbers in a mechanical discussion it helps to provide details, elaborate as possible.
It helps to see the perspective more clearly. At least to me it usually is.

Otherwise:
a.
80+AC plus e.dodge builds? Wow, AC needs a nerf!
b.
Aaa, it is a niche, or wording it a bit more precisely(after the EDK nerf), a *one of a kind* concept build? Interesting.

Thank you for the response Scurvy Cur, I appreciate it.

P.C
Again, just an imho, and I did go a little overboard in the example.
P.C.C
I am aware that dodge has a soft cap :p.

[Nevrus]

A lot of topics arent covering automatic hits either


Damage dealt is never a hard Zero. High AC is still hit for a natural 20 which is always a crit. Making up a huge amount of damage over time

The only outlier in this is PM which is crit immune. However most PM builds have insanely low damage output making the time to death longer and more drawn out meaning they just need to run away.

That is not actually the case!

Crits in NWN need to be confirmed- meaning a second attack roll at the same AB needs to hit for it to be considered a critical.

The threat roll cannot auto-hit on 20's, so if you're fishing for 20's against an opponent, they are effectively immune to critical hits from you.

This has been your daily meleefact.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

This is why critical threat range has taken a back seat for a lot of builds. Sure, you might crit on a 13 with your scimitar, but your confirm roll will fail.

[Ork]

This is why critical threat range has taken a back seat for a lot of builds. Sure, you might crit on a 13 with your scimitar, but your confirm roll will fail.

Or in some cases accelerated as in WM/CoT builds.

[jomonog]

Dex divine builds can hit 80+AC (in improved expertise) with e-dodge and have mid-range AB (around 45-47) but they wont have lots of damage output. This is some mix of swash/rogue/SD with either pally/BG/harper/zhent dips. I dont see these as a problem though really its not like they are everywhere.

The bard/RDD/PM dex build you can actually build to get 87ac (in IE) and yes that is a meme (although it is crit immune and can summon mummies and a dracolich but thats as much offence as it has)

[Dr. B]

Bard 4/ PM 16/SD 10, dex based.

AC before improved expertise is about 72 on a human, halfling will nudge that 2 points higher.

Please note that the only thing this build does is survive melee really really well and summon a dracolich 1/day. It's not good by any stretch of the imagination, and I've not seen it played since EDK went to a short-term summon instead of a long term dungeon clear summon.

goodbey dartak

I'm not his player, but Dartak was con-based if I recall correctly, not dex-based.

[dallion43]

Dex divine builds can hit 80+AC (in improved expertise) with e-dodge

If you don't mind to elaborate,

Edit: A bunch of wrong calculations were here before :p.

[jomonog]

A wild elf swashbuckler 27 paladin 3 starting stats 14/19/10/8/13/16 will get e-dodge and hit 70AC before expertise (assuming you can barkskin for 4). AB will be 45 with a +3 rapier. Swash qualifies for epic dodge through swash bonus feats at level 23 (defensive roll) and 26 (improved evasion).

Ending dex is 26 and charisma is 16 (both gifted) so AC = 10 (base) + 14 (dex) + 5 (swash) + 9 (divine shield) + 4 (haste - build gets blinding speed) + 3 (robes - could get 2 more with vestment btw) + 1 (elf) + 6 (tumble) + 6 (parry) + 4 (deflection) + 2 (armor skin) + 1 (mage armor) + 1 (boots) + 4 (barkskin) = 70AC

Post harper nerf there were plenty of other similar builds you could brew up that probably were a bit better (swash 25 harper 5 pre nerf would be better than above)

Edit - actually this one exceeds the dodge cap of 20 by 1 so effective AC will be 69 with shield up prior to IE (although if you can scroll shadow shield or get a cleric to give you vestment then you push past the 70 mark )

[Skibbles]

I don't understand the intention of this thread. I'm not even sure there's a debate or... Anything.

Do we assume that the present system is generally unfun and all these questions must be answered, or are we bored and doing numbers for the sake of it?

In a PvE environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Risk vs. Reward is compromised.

In a PvP environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Player-player bonne volante (good will) is compromised.

Too high AB on the other hand? Too high AB and adequate AC? Yes - the results might be the same - a win. But there would be some hit point loss also.

This seems way to simple to generalize in this manner. At higher level content you can easily get overwhelmed if you are hit only on 19s or 20s, and for even just a single AC in a downward direction you can go from 'okay' to 'dead' in seconds.

High AC doesn't trivialize most of the content - it makes it possible. Not only that but not being able to die doesn't mean you can win the encounter.

Also what about magic that doesn't even take AC into account? Should we ignore that some characters might be a brick wall but shatter under a hold person?

Also does expenditure factor into risk? At one point should someone who spent millions of gold on gear and wands and items be able to trivialize content that was difficult before? Isn't that the entire point of character progression?

This thread seems to be seeking to solve a problem that doesn't exist, or at least a problem that wasn't explicitly stated.

The d20 in antiquated and binary. No fiddling will ever change that there are two possible results on a roll: pass, fail (barring rare spells with a lesser effect on a fail). Add in that in any fight there's could be hundreds of rolls and the only real option in encounters is a 5-10% threshold.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I don't understand the intention of this thread. I'm not even sure there's a debate or... Anything.

Do we assume that the present system is generally unfun and all these questions must be answered, or are we bored and doing numbers for the sake of it?

In a PvE environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Risk vs. Reward is compromised.

In a PvP environment:

If a character with a "too high" AC is incapable of dying against a foe, risk becomes trivial. Player-player bonne volante (good will) is compromised.

Too high AB on the other hand? Too high AB and adequate AC? Yes - the results might be the same - a win. But there would be some hit point loss also.

This seems way to simple to generalize in this manner. At higher level content you can easily get overwhelmed if you are hit only on 19s or 20s, and for even just a single AC in a downward direction you can go from 'okay' to 'dead' in seconds.

High AC doesn't trivialize most of the content - it makes it possible. Not only that but not being able to die doesn't mean you can win the encounter.

Also what about magic that doesn't even take AC into account? Should we ignore that some characters might be a brick wall but shatter under a hold person?

Also does expenditure factor into risk? At one point should someone who spent millions of gold on gear and wands and items be able to trivialize content that was difficult before? Isn't that the entire point of character progression?

This thread seems to be seeking to solve a problem that doesn't exist, or at least a problem that wasn't explicitly stated.

The d20 in antiquated and binary. No fiddling will ever change that there are two possible results on a roll: pass, fail (barring rare spells with a lesser effect on a fail). Add in that in any fight there's could be hundreds of rolls and the only real option in encounters is a 5-10% threshold.

For combat overall, yes, AC & AB questions are an over-simplification. You do have to start somewhere though, right?

What about magic? Well, indeed, what about magic? What about expenditure? Good questions.

This thread seems to be seeking to solve a problem that doesn't exist, or at least a problem that wasn't explicitly stated.

Arms and Armour -- An Arelith Introspective
(How hard should it be to hit someone?)

Historically, Arms and Armour are representative of culture vs culture conflict, an arm's race, between neighbouring states. Armour & Arms represent the clash and counter of weapon's development.

The Forgotten Realms is a mish-mash of historical cultures and timepoints.
Dungeons & Dragons is predominantly a westernized view of Arms & Armour.
Dungeons & Dragons is a fantastical version, with added magical spice.
Arelith, is a further melting pot.

This results in:

- The Forgotten Realms has an identity crisis.
- Arelith has an identity crisis.
- Weapons and Armour poorly represent *a* game world setting. They represent a *many worlds* setting which a Pen and Paper DM can choose as *a* game setting.

Because arms and armour are being pulled from diverse histories and timepoints, it has resulted in a wider range of numbers. It is what it is, D&D, Forgotten Realms, fulfilling player-fantasies to represent different kinds of heroes -- it's not a problem -- but it does result in a crisis of identity.

That crisis of origins and identity makes it difficult to "ground" Arelith as a game setting with a sense of self. Which begs questions for any author / Pen and Paper world-builder / Persistent World Maker -- what do I want the world to be? What era do I want it to represent? Why is this interesting? What do the dynamics of Arms & Armour represent in terms of heroic ideals and fantasy roleplay?

[Baron Saturday]

For me, at least, the most interesting (and actionable) question posed by this thread has simply been: What is the role of armor in a meta where unarmored builds have higher AC?

[Drowboy]

It seems like, Tathkar, you've run into a classic problem of D&D players everywhere, which is that FR is a bad setting, and for anything past it's fairly specific Tolkein Fantasy-Dungeon Crawler niche (which it admittedly does very well), D&D is a bad game.

The fix in real life is to play something else.

The fix in arelith has always been to sort of grin, bear it, and try to ignore the big cracks in the foundation that our every invention spreads.