STR Melee is bad, please buff

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Having the ability to do big damage with STR doesn't mean much when the majority of the server is running the same quarterstaff build, because you just will never hit them in the first place so having that ability doesn't mean anything. And on the off chance you do roll a 20 in one of your 5 attacks, it not going to confirm so you end up with like.. 60 damage per round if you're lucky?

Meanwhile, the other person is smacking you in a near untouchable state with a stick dealing ~30 damage per hit for like 6/7 out of 9 attacks per round because STR builds have terrible AC.

STR:

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

• Slightly lower AB compared to the meta quarterstaff builds (~47 or so)

• The only thing STR builds could have over dex is better saves, and that's IF you take a dip for BG/Paladin/etc AND invest lots of points into Charisma (and gear))

• Carryweight

• Big damage (Lol, but the ability to deal big damage doesn't mean anything when like the meta is having 65+ AC)

• Pretty abysmal leveling experience due to low AC + Gear reliance for everything

• Half as many attacks per round

Dex:

• 60-70 AC with the same amount of investment as STR builds, if not less

• Same, if not better AB, depending on if your a meta build or not

• Good Reflex save, pretty bad others

• 5 attacks within -3 full AB, 4 bonus attacks on top of those 5

• Slightly lower damage
  • If you think DEX lacks damage for some reason, you're living under a rock... STR gets maybe 15-20 bonus damage to their attacks (Which mind you, aren't likely to hit in the first place, for the trade off of like 20 AC. Ask yourself if you would trade 1 ac for an extra point of damage before going down this arguement)

• Low carryweight in comparison

• Can solo majority of content and is a breeze to level

DEX builds just offer much, much more than STR builds do, other than carryweight, and they dont have to fork over half a million in gold to be effective. Not to mention, dex builds generally get more skill points than STR builds have have a plethora of options available to them.

STR really needs some help, and I think adding DR 10/- to adamantine (and scaling down for other armor types), a slightly better AC bonus (+1 across the board for all plate armors) would REALLY help in PVE at the very least. I don't think this buff would really matter much in PVP though.

Could possibly even take the route of locking weapon focuses behind Strength (specifically Epic Weapon Focus) (I'll be selling pitchforks outside of Cordor so get them while they're hot!). Maybe even adding some extra epic feats that require 20+ Strength as a prerequisite that boost AB or give an extra attack per round would be good too.

I agree with this entirely and it pretty much sums up my entire argument!

[Baron Saturday]

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

How are you getting that? Even your basic cookie-cutter WM can hit low 60s AC in improved expertise, and a BG/Paladin build can hit low 70s.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

How are you getting that? Even your basic cookie-cutter WM can hit low 60s AC in improved expertise, and a BG/Paladin build can hit low 70s.

I played a cookie cutter WM and reached about 45 AC with adamantine helmet, full plate, and fencing buckler, that's with 30 tumble and the armor skin feat. With improved expertise I'd reach 55. The quarterstaff dex melee builds are reaching 59-60 without improved expertise. So there really is a staggering difference of 10-15 AC going on here.

[Drowboy]

10 base+6 tumble+3 vesture+8 Wis (this is a ranger monk with 14 base)+13 dex+1 boot+1 mage armor+4 barkskin+3 helmet+4 haste+3 ranger DW bonus

56 unless I'm missing a source. Easy fix is to remove the ranger DW bonus when having monk levels. 53 is much healthier.

[Anomandaris]

Having the ability to do big damage with STR doesn't mean much when the majority of the server is running the same quarterstaff build, because you just will never hit them in the first place so having that ability doesn't mean anything. And on the off chance you do roll a 20 in one of your 5 attacks, it not going to confirm so you end up with like.. 60 damage per round if you're lucky?

Meanwhile, the other person is smacking you in a near untouchable state with a stick dealing ~30 damage per hit for like 6/7 out of 9 attacks per round because STR builds have terrible AC.

STR:

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

• Slightly lower AB compared to the meta quarterstaff builds (~47 or so)

• The only thing STR builds could have over dex is better saves, and that's IF you take a dip for BG/Paladin/etc AND invest lots of points into Charisma (and gear))

• Carryweight

• Big damage (Lol, but the ability to deal big damage doesn't mean anything when like the meta is having 65+ AC)

• Pretty abysmal leveling experience due to low AC + Gear reliance for everything

• Half as many attacks per round

Dex:

• 60-70 AC with the same amount of investment as STR builds, if not less

• Same, if not better AB, depending on if your a meta build or not

• Good Reflex save, pretty bad others

• 5 attacks within -3 full AB, 4 bonus attacks on top of those 5

• Slightly lower damage
  • If you think DEX lacks damage for some reason, you're living under a rock... STR gets maybe 15-20 bonus damage to their attacks (Which mind you, aren't likely to hit in the first place, for the trade off of like 20 AC. Ask yourself if you would trade 1 ac for an extra point of damage before going down this arguement)

• Low carryweight in comparison

• Can solo majority of content and is a breeze to level

DEX builds just offer much, much more than STR builds do, other than carryweight, and they dont have to fork over half a million in gold to be effective. Not to mention, dex builds generally get more skill points than STR builds have have a plethora of options available to them.

STR really needs some help, and I think adding DR 10/- to adamantine (and scaling down for other armor types), a slightly better AC bonus (+1 across the board for all plate armors) would REALLY help in PVE at the very least. I don't think this buff would really matter much in PVP though.

Could possibly even take the route of locking weapon focuses behind Strength (specifically Epic Weapon Focus) (I'll be selling pitchforks outside of Cordor so get them while they're hot!). Maybe even adding some extra epic feats that require 20+ Strength as a prerequisite that boost AB or give an extra attack per round would be good too.

I agree with this entirely and it pretty much sums up my entire argument!

Yah there's just a lot wrong with this. As stated, AC can easily be in low 60s or higher on a good Str build. And the AB can absolutely get into serious threat range. I've seen builds from 53-58 AB many times. And the whole damage to AC equation is just wrong. If it's 1:1 dex mod as AC and str to dmg, then it shouldn't be different numbers. You also can hit a cap on certain AC types which limits how some builds are able to stack this kind of AC.

Also you're talking about fully buffed figures then using unbuffed figures on each side. A dex build can hit crazy AC with IE then their AB is trash and they're fishing for 20s. Yah. Sure that kind of works with tons of APR but it's not remotely reliable in PvP. Dex AB is not outpoerforming Str AB most of the time as there are heavy rogue lvls for sneak dmg etc. The 3/4 BaB progression with a 4 dip for more APR (rangers exception here). Unless it's some arbitrary battle like a duel in an arena with no heal potions allowed and you have to fight to the death on the spot. We're also failing to account for how some AC types are negated when flat footed. It's not this cut and dry. True strike potions are also a thing. And if that Barb/WM pops one and you're anywhere close, you're going for a nice dirt-nap.

Also the gearing issue? Half a million just for 5% fine elven boots for starters. Dead man's cross? Svirf hammer? Dale Sword? Penumbral vestiment? Rogue's leathers? Ranger's runic vestiment? Runes for Displacer Beast? And fully enchanted rings of hiding with a greater/masterwork rune on each? You're in for a couple of million easy.

I'm sorry, I get the whole PvE and leveling argument, but I think this is just way off base in competitive PvP lvls. Some of what is being said here is just factually wrong. You're using creative arguments that are inconsistent with reality. For example, AB is as good or better on dex and dex gets more skillpoints. Well skill points are class and int based. So if Rogue, yes more skill points, worse AB. If Ranger, same skill points for str & dex. If Fighter, dex fighter and str fighter, skill points are the same. Exception being "Rogues" that dip fighters. They're not fighters, they're rogues. You can easily fit in what you need with the right build. And what about feats or Hit Die? Those aren't even really addressed.

I don't mean to be rude or combative, but have you tested, seen or tried out some of the highly tuned str builds? It's just, surprising to hear this. I think that meta does favor dex a smidge, but it's a very subtle balance and the biggest favor is towards build diversity. Str is going to have to go divine to really push the numbers dex does. And WM is probably a must to really push alpha strike capabilities up there, with a few exceptions. The biggest thing I think dex has going for it is E-dodge and blinding speed. The instant action haste is AWESOME and powerful. I'd be in favor of giving some interesting bonus feats to fighters and str warriors that enhance their "combat" style, but be VERY wary about buffing them as they already literally delete most builds in 1-2 rounds.

I challenge you to bring some dex builds into PGCC and test them up against the top tier Str builds. If this is really how you think, you'll be startled.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

10 base+6 tumble+3 vesture+8 Wis (this is a ranger monk with 14 base)+13 dex+1 boot+1 mage armor+4 barkskin+3 helmet+4 haste+3 ranger DW bonus

56 unless I'm missing a source. Easy fix is to remove the ranger DW bonus when having monk levels. 53 is much healthier.

That's a nice modest assessment, but those Wisdom and Dex modifiers can easily be pushed higher. It's not difficult at all to reach 15 from dex or squeeze in a bit more wisdom monk AC. Even lowballing it, we're still looking at AC numbers 10 points higher than STR Melee. Against more optimized, well geared builds, a difference 15. Even if we cheat and bring in a healer cleric to help the cookie cutter STR WM he's still gonna get creamed by any flavor of DEX stick user.

[Archnon]

10 base+6 tumble+3 vesture+8 Wis (this is a ranger monk with 14 base)+13 dex+1 boot+1 mage armor+4 barkskin+3 helmet+4 haste+3 ranger DW bonus

56 unless I'm missing a source. Easy fix is to remove the ranger DW bonus when having monk levels. 53 is much healthier.

Two for armor skin and one for dodge and the ranger vesture is 4 I believe. If you do 21 ranger 6 fighter three monk, you get one more.

However, let's be honest. The problem isn't rangers. To steal Ork's argument before he gets here: lore changes mean you don't need umd so monk and paladin/BG make the go to dips. The server ends up with insanely high apr with everyone using the same weapon, high ac, or high saves and divine might.

Lock ubab behind majority monk levels. Scale monk wisdom ac with level until level 20. Maybe then someone will play pure monk. Scale charisma saves and dmight d-shield while your at it. Then we might see some shifts.

[Drowboy]

For sure, if you tank your int, cha, str, and con, you can start with 17 dex/16 wis, gift both, and end up with 3 more AC. That opens you up to weaknesses elsewhere, though.

(Fix the lore change fix this)
Or scale wis ac to monk levels, yes.

[Anomandaris]

10 base+6 tumble+3 vesture+8 Wis (this is a ranger monk with 14 base)+13 dex+1 boot+1 mage armor+4 barkskin+3 helmet+4 haste+3 ranger DW bonus

56 unless I'm missing a source. Easy fix is to remove the ranger DW bonus when having monk levels. 53 is much healthier.

Two for armor skin and one for dodge and the ranger vesture is 4 I believe. If you do 21 ranger 6 fighter three monk, you get one more.

However, let's be honest. The problem isn't rangers. To steal Ork's argument before he gets here: lore changes mean you don't need umd so monk and paladin/BG make the go to dips. The server ends up with insanely high apr with everyone using the same weapon, high ac, or high saves and divine might.

Lock ubab behind majority monk levels. Scale monk wisdom ac with level until level 20. Maybe then someone will play pure monk. Scale charisma saves and dmight d-shield while your at it. Then we might see some shifts.

I agree with ubab but I'd be hesitant about the monk ac change or scaling bonuses from div shield, ch based saves & might. That will cut a lot of builds to the bone, not just dex. This might cause a riot hahahaha. I mean the fact that PC's are rolling in mid to high 70's EASILY on saves where the highest spell DC is 42 is kind of absurd.

But the goal isn't really to incentivize ppl to play pure monk is it? It seems more about creating balanced(ish) sets of builds with a variety of playstyles and rp avenues? I think the issue is probably ubab and AC. It's just a lot of cookies. I'd be very wary of taking both as it would then kind of break it. And as you stated, if you did that and didn't change the way all the div stuff works, it'd just replace monk dips with more div dips.

[Baron Saturday]

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

How are you getting that? Even your basic cookie-cutter WM can hit low 60s AC in improved expertise, and a BG/Paladin build can hit low 70s.

I played a cookie cutter WM and reached about 45 AC with adamantine helmet, full plate, and fencing buckler, that's with 30 tumble and the armor skin feat. With improved expertise I'd reach 55. The quarterstaff dex melee builds are reaching 59-60 without improved expertise. So there really is a staggering difference of 10-15 AC going on here.

Here's my math:
10 base + 20 armor (addy plate/helmet/tower shield) + 6 tumble + 3 fighter AC bonus + 1 boots + 2 armor skin +1 dex + 1 mage armor + 4 barkskin + 4 haste = 52, 62 in IE.

Divine shield build nets another 8-10, which puts it pretty much on par or at a slight advantage over a Dex build. Giving addy armor 10/- DR and +1 AC makes divine dips that much stronger.

[Drowboy]

10/- Battleclerics would be fun though.
And divine bards.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Here's my math:
10 base + 20 armor (addy plate/helmet/tower shield) + 6 tumble + 3 fighter AC bonus + 1 boots + 2 armor skin +1 dex + 1 mage armor + 4 barkskin + 4 haste = 52, 62 in IE.

Divine shield build nets another 8-10, which puts it pretty much on par or at a slight advantage over a Dex build. Giving addy armor 10/- DR and +1 AC makes divine dips that much stronger.

Alright, I was not taking haste or barkskin into consideration. I am still not convinced STR Melee is in a good place mechanically, but can see how a divine dip Fighter/WM might be viable, at least until their Divine Might/Divine Shield runs out...

[cantalyssa]

We can agree to disagree, because in my experience what I wrote is exactly what happens when I've played both a STR and Dex build on the live servers. Your mileage may have varied more than mine, but after playing both types of characters into the epics for 6+ months each, those were my observations. If you think that my experiences are just creative arguments that are inconsistent with reality, then I guess I'm an NPC living in the simulation!

Also, not so sure why people keep referencing the Cookie-Cutter WM builds that use scimitar+shield. I was under the impression that this thread was for two-hand strength builds! If that isn't the case, then I concede that indeed my experiences are probably not important to the discussion.

But if this is for two-hand strength builds your AC WILL look like this:

Base: 10
Adamantine Plate: 11
Dex: 1
Tumble: 3-6
Armor Skin: 2
Barkskin pot: 3/4
Mage Armor/Shadow Conjuration: 1
Helmet: 3/4 (If using wand of shield to overwrite)
Boots: 1
Haste: 4
Divine Shield: 8-10 (And that is a very generous number)

That's 47 - 54 AC PRIOR to Expertise and has a windup time (which is important to note too - as a dex build presses blinding speed and starts making 9 attacks while you're self potting/buffing haste and divine shield.

Edit:

I think it should be pointed out that Divine melee are in an OK place, but are still lackluster in everything except the saves department when compared to a dex quarterstaff.

I do like the idea of moving Monk bonuses to being 10+ levels into the class though. That would fix a lot of these dex builds that dip into it for 3 levels, if you don't think buffing armor would be a good idea.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

This thread is not just about greatswords or sword and board in particular but about STR melee builds in general. I am also not counting things like Divine Might/Divine Shield because you can just slap those on a DEX build too. We are mainly talking about gear and easily obtained wards like barkskin, mage armor, and haste. DEX builds are getting 10-15 more AC than STR builds while having twice the APR and the same or better AB. Just putting 10 DR on full plate adamantine would help mitigate this somewhat. Divine dips can definitely make STR Melee more viable but in my experience relying on Divine Might/Shield usually results in gassing out and dying when trying to solo places whereas the DEX builds keep going like the Energizer Bunny.

[The Rambling Midget]

Alright, I was not taking haste or barkskin into consideration. I am still not convinced STR Melee is in a good place mechanically, but can see how a divine dip Fighter/WM might be viable, at least until their Divine Might/Divine Shield runs out...

STR melee definitely still is down a little on AC, but the real issue is that, as DEX creeps closer and closer to STR in damage potential across the board, STR becomes less and less enticing, because we're fast approaching a point where STR and DEX are effectively equals in direct combat, but DEX also has a massive box of other tools to choose from, while STR is just off to the side eating paint chips.

I do agree with Hunter that DEX should probably be reeled back in, in a few places, and Monks still need a good kneecapping, especially when multiclassing. However, given the utility that DEX has amassed, I'd also like to figure out what utility, rather than raw power, could be given to STR in order to balance that aspect.

[Drowboy]

DEX builds are getting 10-15 more AC than STR builds while having twice the APR

So addy plate + tower is 8+3+3+3 = 17.

Unless You assume some extreme minmaxing, a monk/whatever dexer will either be getting 14 from dex, 8 from wis, +3 (if ranger), for 25ish, right? or somewhere in the 14 dex/ (6-9) wis range for other setups.

Without monk, an DWing dexer is actually 2-4 points behind a sword and board warrior. Monk can for sure put them up and over yes, and up a bit more 9 if you add ranger, for sure. But I think we all agree DW ranger/monk is already a bit strong.

To say 'all dexers are running 15 more AC than strengthers with better AB to boot, while dual wielding' avoids the problem and is, frankly, wrong.

If you've got builds that prove your point, post them. I'll note, though, that the comparison should be with all the lights running on both, or on neither.

Edit: More useful utility for STR setups would be nice, as well, rather than opening the pandoras box of anyone in fullplate getting a good DR chunk.

[Jencent]

10/-?

That's a tricky one, because it is not unheard of for some of these 10 APR builds to get +4 or +5 weapons from Blade Thirst. I would not be opposed to just making it a flat 10 that can't be penetrated. It is adamantine after all, people have to spend a quarter of a million gold for a full plate of the stuff.

>after all, people have to spend a quarter of a million gold for a full plate of the stuff.
And what about people which spend stat points and feats for 9/-?

I challenge you to bring some dex builds into PGCC and test them up against the top tier Str builds. If this is really how you think, you'll be startled.

Ohhh. It can be tricky... Coz we have some really retarded builds only for melee counter.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

10/-?

That's a tricky one, because it is not unheard of for some of these 10 APR builds to get +4 or +5 weapons from Blade Thirst. I would not be opposed to just making it a flat 10 that can't be penetrated. It is adamantine after all, people have to spend a quarter of a million gold for a full plate of the stuff.

>after all, people have to spend a quarter of a million gold for a full plate of the stuff.
And what about people which spend stat points and feats for 9/-?

Like I said, it's a tricky one. The main STR builds doing that mostly involve taking 10 levels of palemaster for crit immunity. A barb can do this and stack EDR III with their barb DR making it so they are near impossible to kill with melee already. But that build has terrible saves and gets destroyed by casters and probably by spellstaffs or ranger/monks too due to the sheer volume of magically augmented attacks they put out.

[Jencent]

Like I said, it's a tricky one. The main STR builds doing that mostly involve taking 10 levels of palemaster for crit immunity. A barb can do this and stack EDR III with their barb DR making it so they are near impossible to kill with melee already. But that build has terrible saves and gets destroyed by casters and probably by spellstaffs or ranger/monks too due to the sheer volume of magically augmented attacks they put out.

Already fought with this builds. And do you know what? This is funny, but he can easily lose to many STR builds. He even can lose to melee/caster/hybrid (which is meme-build).

[godhand-]

No disrespect but i think alot of comments about builds on the forums seem to live in a bubble of hypothetical maths and not how things play out in the real game. And to demonstrate this, i'd like to counter this whole sentiment with some real case examples:

If STR melee is so bad, why have STR melee builds won all the last cordor tournaments for.... 3 or 4 tournaments in a row?
We're putting STR melee builds against DEX spellsword monks and all of that and guess who's come out on top each time?

Strength is in a good place, and there are so many ways to build for it. You might trade out AC, but hey with a scythe that crits for ~250-300 you only need to get one or two 20 rolls to win a fight.

Everything isn't as cut and dry and the numbers make them out to be is all i'm saying.

[Jencent]

No disrespect but i think alot of comments about builds on the forums seem to live in a bubble of hypothetical maths and not how things play out in the real game. And to demonstrate this, i'd like to counter this whole sentiment with some real case examples:

If STR melee is so bad, why have STR melee builds won all the last cordor tournaments for.... 3 or 4 tournaments in a row?
We're putting STR melee builds against DEX spellsword monks and all of that and guess who's come out on top each time?

Strength is in a good place, and there are so many ways to build for it. You might trade out AC, but hey with a scythe that crits for ~250-300 you only need to get one or two 20 rolls to win a fight.

Everything isn't as cut and dry and the numbers make them out to be is all i'm saying.

Because this was div builds? But i'll be glad to fight with this builds on PGCC.

[Dr. B]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

[Oshido]

Only 2 cents worth here.

If anything fix the quarterstaff issue.
Aaaaand,
If anything give str melee ac scaled off disc.(say 1 ac every 10 for total of 3 hard). Only taking affect when main attribute is str and wearing heavy armour two handed. No weapons which grant an off hand attack.

Using disc rather then parry or tumble fits I think. A warrior in heavy plate swinging a two handed sword uses these to deflect blows rather affectively RL.

[cantalyssa]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

Thanks for the constructive feedback, it really puts into perspective on what's wrong with it and what's good!

Two hand strength is pretty lackluster compared to what's out there if you don't take 5-7 levels of WM. Prove me wrong.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

Screaming "You're wrong!" without providing even so much as anecdotal evidence is not very mature or reasonable discourse. I'd love to be proven wrong but apparently you're too busy pulling your fingernails out. Sorry I guess.