Arelith

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:31 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 am Breaking this gate shouldnt be seen as ignoring npc. You dont need to ignore anyone to break this gate. A PC doesnt have to give a rat about one guard with two dogs, this isnt ignoring them oocly. Would it make a big difference if any person who broke the gate killed the NPC first? This isnt Cordor.

Not only is that a dangerous precedent to set, as far as respecting the environment, it also ignores the population of NPCs, both existing and implied, within the camp, who would be angry at having their gate broken. The camp was founded by a group of Half-Orcs and Orogs who, with few exceptions, would smash you into a thin paste at the drop of a hat, if they saw you putting a scratch on their gate. Further, not every PC that smashes the gate is a level 30 demigod who could easily ignore the guards.

Lets breakdown what you just said.

My character doesnt respect the environment. (what...?)

The population of the camp is not near the gate, the only thing in line of sight is 1 guard and 2 dogs.

No one sees you break the gate except that one guard.

There are no guards. There's ~A guard. There's Darkness spells and other concealing means in which that guard cannot even see WHO broke the gate.

Who cares about level? I dont even know how strong that guard is. I assume an epic character can kill it easily. And you're right, not every PC can handle the guard. I probably wouldnt try to break that gate on a lvl 10 PC. What's that have to do with anything.

Would you still do it if there was a PC watching? Even a low level one who could, at best, run away and tell people what you're doing?

Why not just apply the same 'must be x' to the camp that applies to temples and whatnot?

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:43 pm
There are no guards. There's ~A guard. There's Darkness spells and other concealing means in which that guard cannot even see WHO broke the gate.

Who cares about level? I dont even know how strong that guard is. I assume an epic character can kill it easily. And you're right, not every PC can handle the guard. I probably wouldnt try to break that gate on a lvl 10 PC. What's that have to do with anything.

That whole situation you're describing is entirely why you ought to have a DM oversee NPC interactions, so you can actually do these things, and so the NPC can react to them. I could have sworn NPC ignoring was against the rules as well.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:47 pm Would you still do it if there was a PC watching? Even a low level one who could, at best, run away and tell people what you're doing?

Yes. I, in fact did it once with a PC watching. Said PC helped my character and taught them a way to break the gate more efficiently. All inside Darkness if it matters. I was no ignoring the NPC. My character was. And as I said, after this thread I wont do it again. But this stands very much within a deep gray area as far as I can see.

"I wasn't ignoring a rule, my character was" is next level. 10/10

Make it unbashable or the quarters horc only so it can be for the people it's for.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:08 pmYes. I, in fact did it once with a PC watching. Said PC helped my character and taught them a way to break the gate more efficiently. All inside Darkness if it matters. I was no ignoring the NPC. My character was. And as I said, after this thread I wont do it again. But this stands very much within a deep gray area as far as I can see.

An uncooperative PC. I can't fathom how you assumed that I meant a cooperative one.

I'm asking if you would risk having a small army of Half-Orcs - potentially dangerous ones - come down on you after you step out of said darkness, having very obviously been the one who just smashed their gate.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:43 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:31 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 am Breaking this gate shouldnt be seen as ignoring npc. You dont need to ignore anyone to break this gate. A PC doesnt have to give a rat about one guard with two dogs, this isnt ignoring them oocly. Would it make a big difference if any person who broke the gate killed the NPC first? This isnt Cordor.

Not only is that a dangerous precedent to set, as far as respecting the environment, it also ignores the population of NPCs, both existing and implied, within the camp, who would be angry at having their gate broken. The camp was founded by a group of Half-Orcs and Orogs who, with few exceptions, would smash you into a thin paste at the drop of a hat, if they saw you putting a scratch on their gate. Further, not every PC that smashes the gate is a level 30 demigod who could easily ignore the guards.

Lets breakdown what you just said.

My character doesnt respect the environment. (what...?)

The population of the camp is not near the gate, the only thing in line of sight is 1 guard and 2 dogs.

No one sees you break the gate except that one guard.

There are no guards. There's ~A guard. There's Darkness spells and other concealing means in which that guard cannot even see WHO broke the gate.

Who cares about level? I dont even know how strong that guard is. I assume an epic character can kill it easily. And you're right, not every PC can handle the guard. I probably wouldnt try to break that gate on a lvl 10 PC. What's that have to do with anything.

This is why it's ignoring an NPC, wouldn't the guard if a player at least shout a warning that the camp might be under attack? To think the guard would sit there and have no reaction at all even if under darkness. The main reason the gate would get busted is so folks go could try and rent the ship. But honestly having a settlement just for horcs and orogs and giving it a ship never made sense to me. Always seemed like should be more of an outcast settlement where certain monster races could visit but not stay sort of thing.

the gate has been endlessly bashed since the day it went in and back in the day the Horde was told we had to just deal with it IC, lmao, so ogres and gnolls would just endlessly bash the gates when we weren't online.

hope you guys are having better luck now.

Ork wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:08 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:58 pm Shouldn't really be impassable gates though imo. Everything should be pickable or otherwise bypassable. In no realistic or reasonable campaign would a DM ever say: "You see a dumpy palisade in the middle of the jungle guarded by a bored, sleepy guard who hasn't noticed you. No, nothing you can do can get you beyond it."

Being a nimble master of breaking and entering should get you just about anywhere, it's what they do.

That's not even true in D&D. DCs are at DM discretion and if I didn't want my players going somewhere all the sudden that lock is a DC player skill + 20.

That's bad DMing. It literally is. It's in the DM's Guide under, "Don't say no, determine difficulty." Making realistic things impossible "just because" leaves your players wondering "why bother?" Every gate and door should be reasonably pickable. The key should be on a guard who could be pickpocketed. And a simple palisade should be pretty easily scaled by someone capable of doing it.

Realistically speaking, there's nothing special about the half-breed camp. It's low-security at best. This place isn't going to have adamantine smithed locks with 8 tumblers and pick shields on them, heck, it's open to the coastline. Anyone who could doggy-paddle would get access to the place. We're not talking about the Cordorian Palace, here. (Though even that should be accessible to a truly masterful character imo, but I digress.)

There are skill-based servers who think about stuff like this where burglars and master thieves are just as much a viable and rewarding playstyle as weapon masters and mages and you can defeat bosses in dungeons with clever play or get anywhere just by having the right skills at the right levels.

Monster town for the surface! It would be pretty cool for there to be an ogre/orc/goblin town.
Not sure about Orog or Kobold since they're supposed to be light sensitive.

Why are Orog even allowed in, anyway? Isn't it the HALF-BREED camp? Half!

Hazard wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:01 am Why are Orog even allowed in, anyway? Isn't it the HALF-BREED camp? Half!

The original camp, made by the Horde with fixtures outside Wharftown, not only welcomed Orogs in it but also other people, so it makes sense, at least, for Orogs to be allowed in. If anything, having a gate kind of defeats the original purpose of the first camp, but it's been so long now and it doesn't really matter anymore, I think. If I talked some bs, I hope an old member of the Horde corrects me.

A gate makes sense. It was still very much an Orcblood camp at the time of creation. My Orcish speaking Tiefling was more or less accepted as a friend, but still wasn't allowed to participate in any of the decision making and definitely wasn't immediately accepted by any newly joined Half-Orcs or Orogs, who were more possessive and xenophobic.

As far as making it a monster race town, the leadership did trade with UDers, but never openly accepted them into the camp, as that would have undoubtedly brought an army down on them. They only took the risk with Orogs because of their shared heritage, and the hope of creating a unified future.

There's certainly been time for the camp to evolve and become something new, after two decades without Ohan's leadership, but if they're sticking to the original intent, it would remain a haven for Orcbloods who had been rejected from society, and wouldn't risk inviting destruction by harboring the more unpalatable monster races.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:15 pm the leadership did trade with UDers, but never openly accepted them into the camp, as that would have undoubtedly brought an army down on them.

First, the identification of some monster races as Underdarkers is a bastardization of the lore that happens on the server due to some design issues, namely forcing these races to stay in the Underdark. Ogres, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, kobolds, minotaurs are not Underdarkers, they are monsters who may or may not live there.

As for these creatures that are widespread on the surface bringing any special army on a camp of orcs, well, it simply makes no sense, unless one examines it from a meta-gaming perspective, i.e. we move an army against a goblin PC, but we ignore the 763754 goblin npcs.

They only took the risk with Orogs because of their shared heritage, and the hope of creating a unified future.

Orogs are legit Underdarkers, for the record, but they are also legit orcbloods, and they often associate with other orcs and half-orcs. However I think the camp would probably benefit the most from having mountain orcs and gray orcs, if they were implemented, with orogs as passing guests, in a similar fashion in which deep gnomes visit Earthkin surface settlements.

I've scanned through this a bit - so forgive me if I've missed a point or two. I'll summerise the DM side

1) You are not to attack, or mechanicaly harass sentient, none hostile NPCs (yes that includes domination.) without DM oversite. An npc will ALWAYS respond to being attacked.
2) Anything else however gets a bit more of a grey area, very much dependent on the NPC, the pc, the pcs around, ect, and it will be judged in a 'case by case' basis. It will often be taken into account when considering rpr rating.



'So where does bashing the gate come into this?'
Honestly I don't think that the halforc camp gate /should/ be bashable, so I'll be looking into changing that. But until that happens, bashing down the gate is not 'against the rules.' It may be considered, in many situations, poor roleplay however.

'What about none halforcs owning quarters there?'
I'll bring that up to the team. My instinct says that we shouldn't allow it and shuold look into this, but I'll check with Irongron about that first. If he agrees, then we'll be seeking to evict none-halforcs there.

'What about the idea of making it avaiable to monster races?'
That is almost certainly not going to happen. I believe if you talk to the NPCs there they point out that the camp is more or less allowed to exist by a thread of good grace from the other races. Halforcs are distrusted and generally disliked for their part orc heritage. Inviting Gnolls, Ogres and stuff turns it from, 'Yeah they're part monster, but they're part human too, let's give them a chance.' To 'THIS IS AN ACTUAL MONSTER CAMP!?! WHAT?!' And would result in a rain of fire from any sensible city on the coast.

I've decided to make this unbashable, likely with a climb spot to get in by other means.

Should make the update within the next 24 hours.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:48 pm 'What about the idea of making it avaiable to monster races?'
That is almost certainly not going to happen. I believe if you talk to the NPCs there they point out that the camp is more or less allowed to exist by a thread of good grace from the other races. Halforcs are distrusted and generally disliked for their part orc heritage. Inviting Gnolls, Ogres and stuff turns it from, 'Yeah they're part monster, but they're part human too, let's give them a chance.' To 'THIS IS AN ACTUAL MONSTER CAMP!?! WHAT?!' And would result in a rain of fire from any sensible city on the coast.

That is what was originally explained to my tiefling, who was a friend to the horde (and neighbour).
Orogs sort of ruined that though. Like, a goblin or kobold isn't welcome, but an orog is?
They're not part human and they come from the underark.
So if the camp becomes 'no monster races allowed' as a rule, would that include orogs?

'What about the idea of making it avaiable to monster races?'
That is almost certainly not going to happen. I believe if you talk to the NPCs there they point out that the camp is more or less allowed to exist by a thread of good grace from the other races. Halforcs are distrusted and generally disliked for their part orc heritage. Inviting Gnolls, Ogres and stuff turns it from, 'Yeah they're part monster, but they're part human too, let's give them a chance.' To 'THIS IS AN ACTUAL MONSTER CAMP!?! WHAT?!' And would result in a rain of fire from any sensible city on the coast.

I have such a hard time with this. There are literally hundreds of monster camps all along the surface. If we make settlement for monsters on the surface, that settlement would still abide by the raid rules and require a DM to oversee that action- right?

Ork wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:13 pmI have such a hard time with this. There are literally hundreds of monster camps all along the surface. If we make settlement for monsters on the surface, that settlement would still abide by the raid rules and require a DM to oversee that action- right?

I like the idea of it (although not at the halfbreed camp), but I know that it could never really work without serious changes elsewhere. Every other monster camp is a dungeon, free to attack at any time, but this one, for some reason, you have to plan an itinerary for.

It would be like setting up a Radiant Heart outpost in the Underdark. There's just no way it could believably last long enough to grow into anything permanent.

Beside people worry too much about how monsters would treat surface races. What about surfacers who dont treat monsters as monsters?

We often get talk how monsters RP and handle other races wrong, but not much about the side. We worry too much about ”Cuddlebolds” while we already got halflings and humans who would give us monsters pies or give speech how we’re just misunderstood and need power of friendship.

Why monster players need to be limited or punished if surfacer has roleplayed wrong? Why not take attention on surfacer for once how they RP with monsters?

Our monster community of Scourge have sometimes talked OOC how awesome it would be to settle monster races into the camp with halfbreed and the RP it would grow. Monsters are already limited compared to other races.

Worry about raids? Same rules would apply like on any settlement or district. Worry about PvP? We already got Black Archer elves hunting nearby Andunor or drow slavers near Cordor.

Opening camp for monsters would serve the RP of many.

so why _hasn't_ Cordor descended on the hobgoblin fort with its military? Is it leaving it deliberately as a way to indirectly extract wealth from the rest of the island?

Surfacers can raid every dungeon or settlement of the Underdark, as they are all npcs dungeons, except for Andunor which is a player city. (Some variance for the svirfneblin village and the Grotto, okay).

I sincerely see no difference between a PC monster camp on the surface and a PC monster city in the Underdark. By lore it makes sense, if the npc camps, while attacked, still remain, so can the pc ones. The ooc rules are simply to make so that the population of the PC camps/cities is overseen and present, I do not see why ooc rules should affect the lore.

Monster settlements exist on the surface in the lore, and that's about it really. Not necessarily this camp, of course, although letting in orogs, who are full orcs, makes it a monster settlement, by all means.

Ork wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:13 pm I have such a hard time with this. There are literally hundreds of monster camps all along the surface. If we make settlement for monsters on the surface, that settlement would still abide by the raid rules and require a DM to oversee that action- right?

It's a fair point. The surface population is probably much more monster than civilized race, it's teeming with dungeons and surface camps full of them each presumably with some sort of tribal rule. There could easily be a monster town where the different races go and barter and maybe even savage humans strong enough to handle themselves.

I don't think the half-orc camp could be it, though- it's too close to the Crow's Nest and too easy to access to constantly raid. A monster camp would have to be deep in the wild and take much effort to get to if you're not part of it. Maybe it would be past the yuan-ti ruins on Distant Shores or even take a boat to access or something.

Ork wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:13 pmI have such a hard time with this. There are literally hundreds of monster camps all along the surface.

This is one of those need to accept the terms of playing on a persistent world. We give up some of these things that make sense and suspend our disbelief in order to enjoy the game with the limits we can work with. The goblins in Brambles should have been cleared out 100 years ago, for example.

In an impossible situation, we would have 1 DM for every 2ish players that would be able to make permanent changes on the fly (the PCs would have to be much much lower level). That's never going to be the case though which is why fighting with a need for things to make sense is always going to be a loss.

Xerah wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 pm

Ork wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:13 pmI have such a hard time with this. There are literally hundreds of monster camps all along the surface.

This is one of those need to accept the terms of playing on a persistent world. We give up some of these things that make sense and suspend our disbelief in order to enjoy the game with the limits we can work with. The goblins in Brambles should have been cleared out 100 years ago, for example.

In an impossible situation, we would have 1 DM for every 2ish players that would be able to make permanent changes on the fly (the PCs would have to be much much lower level). That's never going to be the case though which is why fighting with a need for things to make sense is always going to be a loss.

I do not see how this isn’t also an argument for a surface monster player settlement