Arelith

This is too big of a buff to both fiendguards and warlocks. That doesn't need explaining, I think.

the grim yeeter wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:18 pm This is too big of a buff to both fiendguards and warlocks. That doesn't need explaining, I think.

yep!

Also, there's a little VFX that plays when it comes up, visible to apparently anyone. Can this get removed? Is joining a party now a supernatural effect? what?

The buff this provides to both Vampires and Fiends in their current form makes this skill become a necessary power curve option and that alone makes it overpowered. This skill will become mandatory if it is included in it's current form with APR increases. Please re-think adding it to fiends and vampires.

I'd propose swapping the APR buff for regeneration.
That would make it more of a PvE relevant boon powerful enough to justify getting 40 leadership rather than straight up PvP focused power creep.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:47 pm I'd propose swapping the APR buff for regeneration.
That would make it more of a PvE relevant boon powerful enough to justify getting 40 leadership rather than straight up PvP focused power creep.

Regeneration is always a great quality of life bonus. I like this!

yeah gonna say without apr, this gets dumped to 10

Regeneration makes zero thematic sense.

NauVaseline wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:13 am Regeneration makes zero thematic sense.

This.

There's no way to justify that IC. No matter how hard you try, it looks like s*** in game and makes no sense.

To be clear, these effects don't -stack- with multiple party members with leadership, right?

If it doesn't, this looks pretty good. A nice little mechanical boost without it being so excessive it becomes "mandatory" for party or support builds.

I'd also say no to regeneration. Regeneration is a buff that is going to either be really, really useful, or really, really useless without a huge stack of it. +1 regeneration doesn't make a ton of sense, and it also would be pretty useless past level 10

Taking it away from BG and palemaster will relegate this back to being an unused skills.

Right now it is useful for:

Henchmen
Tribesmen
Blackguard pets
Vampires
Planer summoning spells
Mordenkainen's sword
Dominated Humanoids
Some dominated undead
Some Dominated monsters

As far as end game mobs go it would only real be useful for dominated creatures if the vampires and BG pets are gone. I doubt full Barbs will take it as it isn't worth the loss of feats.

I would like to see a Good and neutral aligned pet class that could benefit from it. (though sharman/barb would be neutralish)

Make it pull the highest leadership in party. Or the crown just jumps automatically to said person. I am so not looking forward to the weird, awkward semi-meta RP about who is most leadershippy and should have the crown icon that isn't an IC thing.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:32 am

NauVaseline wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:13 am Regeneration makes zero thematic sense.

This.

There's no way to justify that IC. No matter how hard you try, it looks like s*** in game and makes no sense.

Tribesmen already regenerate for no IC reason. Not everything has to have a super deep lore connection.

I really don't think most summons needed a buff. 100% no point in not taking as a wizard, at least to 30 points, +1ab +1ac isn't so small, especially added to conjuration bonuses, put that on something like a mono elemental too, and it's not like you're lacking skill points in the first place. Plus 3 to uni also makes banishment a lot less likely to happen, though WoF is still the same and a good counter.

It might have made some builds more viable, but a lot of summoners were already in a fine place, perhaps the already strong ones should be excluded. (Warlocks, mages, bg's, maybe other stuff I've forgotten about too)

It also seems weirdly mostly applicable to casters, which I would think typically have the least leadership like qualities (maybe not charisma based caster, but they're still sat on the backline, not really getting involved). You're probably more able to take leadership on a caster, and it's a lot more useful on you than a mundane character.

And honestly, at least to me, it doesn't make thematic sense for a lot of summons, since they aren't really lead by the caster, rather controlled by it. It does sounds good for henchmen and general party buffs.
Overall I like the update, but I do think it might need a tweak or two )

Nitro wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:21 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:32 am

NauVaseline wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:13 am Regeneration makes zero thematic sense.

This.

There's no way to justify that IC. No matter how hard you try, it looks like s*** in game and makes no sense.

Tribesmen already regenerate for no IC reason. Not everything has to have a super deep lore connection.

I dont look for deep lore connections but leadership giving regen is a new level of weird. Why people should start regening around my mundane rogue that doesnt even know what regen is for the matter. Just a thought. There are many levels of putting the lore aside to make the game fun - making mundanes harder to dispel than casters is an example. Whole party regen from something mundane really, again, makes 0 sense to me. Regen is a powerful supernatural thing by definition. We should stick to things like ac and ab.

What Regen is depends on what you believe HP is. I don't personally believe HP is a literal blood meter where you can withstand getting skewered by a great sword (with no negative effects beyond your blood meter going down!) so long as you have a pint left, but more of an amalgam of morale, glancing blows, energy to keep avoiding strikes, etc.

If you don't take hp = literally a health bar, something people do not have

And combat = surviving getting hit in the face with a mace 80 times

Regen makes a lot more sense as a mundane thing. Also, like, if you're applying it to a summon anyway, who cares. Why care. It's video games

meh I guess I'm a bit convinced. Especially if it's just for summons. The good thing about regen is that it doesnt really affect the pvp landscape of the meta, it's mostly just QoL for pve to save potions/kits and it's actually something nice to invest skill points into if it's decent regen. I'll say that at least.

People act like investing in leadership would be pointless if the APR bonus (that, the way it is now, doesn't stack with haste, by the way) were to be removed, but don't realize how powerful even just 1 extra AB is. If maxing leadership gave my fiendguard's or warlock's summon even "just" +1 AB and +1 AC, you bet I would take it in a heartbeat in both cases. A +1 AB increase in the AB range of the pit fiend general/balor lord summons roughly translates to about a +15% increase in DPS. That is very significant.

What I fear for now, is that the people behind this leadership skill idea are so set on making it happen that they are going to nerf the already existing summons to make it happen instead of adjusting the initial, actual change to fit the mechanics that were already there (sunk cost fallacy has been a theme with respect to Arelith's updates in recent years).

the grim yeeter wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:12 pm What I fear for now (as it has been a theme with respect to Arelith's updates in recent years) is that the people behind this leadership skill idea are so set on it being implemented that they are going to nerf the already existing summons to make it happen instead of adjusting the initial, actual change to fit the mechanics that were already there.

I certainly hope that doesn't become the case because then leadership becomes even more mandatory.

the grim yeeter wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:12 pm (that, the way it is now, doesn't stack with haste, by the way)

If this is the case I really don't see a problem here

NauVaseline wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:49 pm

the grim yeeter wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:12 pm (that, the way it is now, doesn't stack with haste, by the way)

If this is the case I really don't see a problem here

The update thread says so.

the grim yeeter wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:12 pm What I fear for now, is that the people behind this leadership skill idea are so set on making it happen that they are going to nerf the already existing summons to make it happen instead of adjusting the initial, actual change to fit the mechanics that were already there (sunk cost fallacy has been a theme with respect to Arelith's updates in recent years).

This is a highly concerning thought. "Here's a new mechanic! Oh and if you don't use it, your class is nerfed because we did a global summons nerf to be in line with it."

I don't think this is going to happen unless the team already thinks the summons are too strong and intentionally want to nerf them by skill points tax.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:50 am I don't think this is going to happen [...]

You would be surprised.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:50 am [...] unless the team [...] intentionally want to nerf them by skill points tax.

That's the thing. Fiendguards already, in the majority of cases, want intimidate/persuade for their fear ability, so for them it wouldn't mean anything is sacrificed at all. And fiendlocks can comfortably make space for persuade without it being too much of a loss, especially if it would mean their summon became significantly more powerful.

I think it should just be removed from all summons. Emphasis the benefits it has on other PCs when partied instead, and adjust them if needed.

Summon based characters like warlocks and BGs do not need this boost.

Aldros wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:29 pm I think it should just be removed from all summons. Emphasis the benefits it has on other PCs when partied instead, and adjust them if needed.

I think I agree with this.