Arelith

Fixtures can be a powerful tool, and an opportunity for more creative players to show off that creativity sometimes, but there's definitely a time and a place for them. Not every area needs to be a canvas for your imagination - nor does every canvas necessarily need your personal addition. It's important to leave space for others to make their contribution known, and this involves both respecting other players' creativity and respecting the developers' creativity as well. It also involves just smiling and nodding when the Powers That Be decide that certain additions are either pointless or tasteless.

... Or just trampling a single goblin tent-burrow fixture with your obnoxiously large Orog once per day. But that's probably not the way that most people would recommend handling this.

Flower fixtures are the worst offender IMO. Signs are at least plopped down to convey a message, and usually a person only puts one down in an area for whatever subject they have. Flowers are massively spammed and are extremely low effort. One or two can enhance other fixtures in an area, but the more of them there are, the uglier they become. I hate walking into places and seeing walls created with flower fixtures.

Could flower fixtures have their DC boosted significantly, require more crafting points, or require a lot more materials? Or even more expensive materials like how statues require gold? It would cut down on how badly they get spammed if people couldn't churn them out endlessly.

Irongron wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:43 pm I won't put a destruction timer on wilderness fixtures.

Much I find excessive clutter annoying there is just too much player history there. I'd never be comfortable destroying that.

Some things are just so dumb though.
One example that irked me was when some player went and cluttered the heck out of the Viper Temple area with their religion spam, as if the very evil, epic Viper monks in the area were just happy to leave all this stuff on their lawn and wouldn't remove it.

Or the ten billion "shop at Joe's" signs... everywhere. When Joe's has been out of business for months.

And saying "Well okay, maybe we'll do this for signs" just means people start making "Shop at Joe's" statues.

It's enough to make me want to make a mage with "uncontrollable fireball syndrome" that happens to be triggered when seeing clutter.

I suggest reporting clutter to DM and then DM make DM events once in a while in which them fixtures deemed deleteworthy by staff are destroyed.
e.g. all those abandoned signs of shop long gone become animated objects running amok.
e.g. the religious temple clutter stuff is carried by the evil viper monks to some open space place to make bonfire to call forth some evil spirit from other plane. And when the good ppl win that bonfire event they get a neat fixture to commemmorate the battle. So this to pacify those making the good fixtures, because even if their fixtures got eliminated it resulted in story event.

I'm not sure anyone would actually fault you for smashing up advertisements. There might be some IC punishment if you're doing it in the middle of Cordor but otherwise it's free game. The only component that's missing is whether or not it'd make sense for your character and most of the time? Yes, it'd make sense to smash the "BUY MY AURA OF GLORY WANDS" that's marring up a beautiful forest.

That's the interpretation I personally take. It's really on us and our characters to police these kinds of things. There was a time the Northern Outskirts in Cordor was absolutely swamped with advertisements and it's cleaned up now. Is it not Be Nice? Maybe. But honestly, the alternative here is ruining something that's obviously a boon to the server when it's done with care.

Besides, it's rather cathartic just absolutely nuking signs.

Irongron wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:43 pm I won't put a destruction timer on wilderness fixtures.

Much I find excessive clutter annoying there is just too much player history there. I'd never be comfortable destroying that.

That's very nice of you... however, you can also try to look at it like character builds being demolished through an update. It happens but life goes on and people make new characters. I hope in the future you'll be more comfortable destroying fixtures too. Maybe DMs can select at random fixture they like and tag them as "none decaying".

Its really not the occasional well thought statue with epic description that is the problem. It's the swarms of chairs and plants and flowers outside/inside every settlement and every hub as if their entire purpose is make the name of their maker stick in our heads and make them more known.

Another thing to mention here... I dont normally have the IC reason or incentive to destroy flowers and chairs, and if my character gets caught doing something like that I would feel double lame also for not having anything to say about it in game. I think that's the main reason fixtures arent being destroyed often enough even after their makers go inactive. People rather occupy themselves with other stuff and consciously leave this to DM intervention.

I am currently awear of two areas at least which are FULL of flower fixtures and the like that just look awful. I've talked to Irongron and will be dealing with that situation soon.
If you see mass fixture placement that's really not in keeping with an area, please inform us. DMs do reserve the right to remove fixtures that arn't 'in keeping' with the ethos of an area.

To put it bluntly, if you really believe something is cluttering an area, I suggest you simply report to the DM team and let them handle it. This is the correct way to deal with this. Whatever else comes out of this discussion will be fruitless

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Floral Shoppe wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:58 pm I will share something I've noticed and in retrospect negatively contributed to. Someone or some group will try to claim an area by spamming a ton of fixtures making it "theirs" like they are planting a flag on the moon. The only way for others who may not agree with this is to remove the fixtures, bash them or spam their own in a fixture war. I think there is an attitude that if I plant more signs and statues here than you I get to say what goes on in this area. This leads to significant and ugly clutter and I do not know how you fix it.

Well, considering that there was just a solution for a similar situation that was just handled, I would again find RP ways to address said issues. If you are willing to roleplay, there is -always- a solution. You just have to be willing to find it without resorting to fixture bashing on a grand scale or larceny.

I don't know what "situation" you're talking about and I am not talking about one instance but a trend and an attitude that if I plant fixtures this area is mine. This can be perfectly okay some times like Bendir creating a public theatre or it can be obnoxious and go against the spirit of the area completely like high levels claiming a low level writ area as their headquarters and hassling anyone they don't like (seen this in Anundor more than once) or someone getting around the quarter system by claiming a public space as "theirs" with fixtures. Sometimes you can RP it out (assuming anyone cares what you think and assuming the party responsible isn't more stubborn and or powerful than whoever objects) and sometimes it's not even a problem but I dont think you need to shut me down for bringing it up as its something that ought to be discussed.

Floral Shoppe wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:33 pm I don't know what "situation" you're talking about and I am not talking about one instance but a trend and an attitude that if I plant fixtures this area is mine. This can be perfectly okay some times like Bendir creating a public theatre or it can be obnoxious and go against the spirit of the area completely like high levels claiming a low level writ area as their headquarters and hassling anyone they don't like (seen this in Anundor more than once) or someone getting around the quarter system by claiming a public space as "theirs" with fixtures. Sometimes you can RP it out (assuming anyone cares what you think and assuming the party responsible isn't more stubborn and or powerful than whoever objects) and sometimes it's not even a problem but I dont think you need to shut me down for bringing it up as its something that ought to be discussed.

Well, I didn't give details cause it's a FOIG situation but I'm trying to say that if you approach it in game, there are ways to address such fixture spam or overpopuation without just Mass Griefing or stealing all of them.

Try reaching out, first of all. Alot of people are very apt to indeed, trying to claim territory for themselves or in roleplay. You may not like it, but it may be important to them. Find a way to Roleplay it, write a protest, contact the local government, contact the local settlement that oversees that land etc.

Try combining the fixtures. Like in areas with lots of flowers (which has been mentioned alot) try seeing if you can adjust the fixtures yourself and do a 'beautifuication project' on behalf of the area.

Try doing a small scale theft of the item, leave an rp trail and make some grand stand about how 'nature is being disrupted' and go tree-hugger on the situation.

Try reaching out OOC to see if they are doing something as part of a story and if it's something you want to get involved in.

And if all else fails, let the DMs know so they can handle it.

I'm not Shutting you down, I'm saying there are multiple ways to handle it IC without OOC forum posts or additional fixture timers or area limits. Creativity is the name of the game, and just because you think it's ugly, doesn't mean the other 99 people who walk by it think the same way, and some of us may even appreciate, or enjoy it.

I wish any fixtures without a new name and description were automatically deleted. I will often just take and reuse or bin these ones.

Xerah wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:46 pm I wish any fixtures without a new name and description were automatically deleted. I will often just take and reuse or bin these ones.

Hey man, I need to get free furniture from my quarter from somewhere.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:33 am

Irongron wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:43 pm I won't put a destruction timer on wilderness fixtures.

Much I find excessive clutter annoying there is just too much player history there. I'd never be comfortable destroying that.

That's very nice of you... however, you can also try to look at it like character builds being demolished through an update. It happens but life goes on and people make new characters. I hope in the future you'll be more comfortable destroying fixtures too.

This attitude is unwelcome and needs to change going forward. I get that you might not agree with things, but please have some civility. It’s a privilege to play here - if you’re that upset about fixtures where you attack someone about build updates, you may wish to find somewhere you’d be happy.

I'm not even upset about it. Sorry if it came off that way.

I don't think that was particularly uncivil to be honest, if you read the text as is written without injecting emotions into it.

Nitro wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:54 am I don't think that was particularly uncivil to be honest, if you read the text as is written without injecting emotions into it.

Thank you. I will add and say that I have no criticism over any updates. I am among the players who try to reassure other players who might be sad by them but I was just using this as an example that player 'content' is being changed all the time. Characters and fixtures. It's not such a big deal, is what I meant.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:02 pm But mind you if you keep bashing someone's fixtures every day and they keep getting repaired, you're breaking the be nice rule.

Even if they're territory markers? Because I sure would appreciate if everyone just kept bashing those.

Spyre wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:40 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:33 am That's very nice of you... however, you can also try to look at it like character builds being demolished through an update. It happens but life goes on and people make new characters. I hope in the future you'll be more comfortable destroying fixtures too.

This attitude is unwelcome and needs to change going forward. I get that you might not agree with things, but please have some civility. It’s a privilege to play here - if you’re that upset about fixtures where you attack someone about build updates, you may wish to find somewhere you’d be happy.

Nitro wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:54 am I don't think that was particularly uncivil to be honest, if you read the text as is written without injecting emotions into it.

Also, yeah, what Nitro said. There was absolutely nothing uncivil about what AstralUniverse said. Besides, he makes a sound point. It's a tad paradoxical to be uncomfortable destructing a fixture containing three paragraphs of text (that can even simply be saved in a text file, so the fixture can be remade any time), but to be fine with destroying several months of players' builds with a single update, while both of these things (that is, updating mechanics, and getting rid of unnecessary, cluttering fixtures) can be necessary and can have valid reasoning to back it up. There is nothing uncivil or ungrateful about making this observation.

The most offensive fixture-spam I find is the concerted effort of a player or group of players who, for lack of meaningful numbers or influence, wish to assert their existence and legitimacy in a safer, unimpeachable and more asynchronous way. They're persistent and can ensure the longevity of their creations for literal years. They too will (ironically) police the areas they've colonized from the placement of outsider fixtures, as if they are the true custodians. If you try to dismantle their sick little hive, good luck. It will cost your character all their cachet, and keep them engaged in a protracted whinging fest. It will be all for nothing because the fixture colonists will simply wait out their opponents, and move back in as soon as they move on.

Lowering a fixture limit doesn't really stop these kinds of players. In fact it makes it easier for them to take over an area. It's something that a System™ can't really mediate. Fixture spam, much like quarter hogging, is something we should be more comfortable to report and call out, even if it's technically not against the rules.

Marsi wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:14 am The most offensive fixture-spam I find is the concerted effort of a player or group of players who, for lack of meaningful numbers or influence, wish to assert their existence and legitimacy in a safer, unimpeachable and more asynchronous way. They're persistent and can ensure the longevity of their creations for literal years. They too will (ironically) police the areas they've colonized from the placement of outsider fixtures, as if they are the true custodians. If you try to dismantle their sick little hive, good luck. It will cost your character all their cachet, and keep them engaged in a protracted whinging fest. It will be all for nothing because the fixture colonists will simply wait out their opponents, and move back in as soon as they move on.

Lowering a fixture limit doesn't really stop these kinds of players. In fact it makes it easier for them to take over an area. It's something that a System™ can't really mediate. Fixture spam, much like quarter hogging, is something we should be more comfortable to report and call out, even if it's technically not against the rules.

I like how everyone is dancing around naming places, but the problem players are so notorious for doing it I have a good idea of where you mean. I thought it was really cool when I was a new player, like there was some sort of active group doing something in the space. But I never saw them, and have never seen or heard of them- Except when they come to defend their fixtures and get angry at anyone else RPing there.

I remember long.. looong time ago when fixtures were first added to the server and what did I do? We RPed a group of wanderers because the idea that we can set up tents and tables and chairs in the wilderness and live without quarters and actually be a group of wanderers who switch the location of their camp every few RL days and make RP of searching for food and good locations which take the weather and the landscape into consideration was... awesome. That's not something we should seek to prevent, I hope. Just food for thought.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:38 pm I remember long.. looong time ago when fixtures were first added to the server and what did I do? We RPed a group of wanderers because the idea that we can set up tents and tables and chairs in the wilderness and live without quarters and actually be a group of wanderers who switch the location of their camp every few RL days and make RP of searching for food and good locations which take the weather and the landscape into consideration was... awesome. That's not something we should seek to prevent, I hope. Just food for thought.

Speaking as a player, I've no problem at all with say, finding the odd tent, stool and fire in the wilderness. And even less problem with finding more expansive camps if I can be sure that, 7 times out of 10 - I'll find someone rping there. That's great.

What I think people have more of an issue with is finding someone who's set up 'base' with 10 tents for their imaginary followers, 5 chairs, a table, one of each crafting station, a message board, a sign board, an enchantment basin, half a dozen banners and gods know what else and - moreover - never seem to be there!

Really the key here is 'more is less'.

Hell, the horde was a mobile settlement through fixtures alone & provided excellent roleplay. The reason why fixtures added to the horde roleplay was because they got used. I understand most of us can't be everywhere at once all the time, but I know some fixtures get put up and abandoned and just sit there. For instance, there's a circle of fixtures on skal crafted by a kuraturan that have existed for over a year - and the character that created them has moved on. There's a lot of horses mounted on an inaccessible hill in the tundra but what purpose do they serve? There's the tundra Grove but I've never seen anyone there. The list goes on. Some things may add for the moment, but nothing lasts forever.

What if there was something like this--

If no one uses “take possession” in the enchantment basin on a fixture it disappears after a week.

If you use “take possession” the fixture is tied to your character and will remain as long as the character remains. But there’s a maintenance charge that drains your bank like a quarter would, this represents you cleaning and maintaining whatever that fixture is. Planting a few permanent fixtures is cheap, planting fifty permanent fixtures of your own is now an expensive proposition.

You can “take possession” of anyone’s fixture (as you can now) but then you also have to pay the maintenance.

If the character’s deleted and no one takes possession, the fixture will atrophy and disappear.

I, truthfully, like DMs just adjucating this. I assume they can see who owns the fixture & act accordingly.

I made this thread because I’d been away for roughly 2 months. In coming back, I found many areas were completely different due to an insane amount of fixtures.

The server and dynamics are always changing, that’s great. I just think it should be done a little less through trying to hit the area limit for fixtures. Instead, focus on the quality of the fixtures you’re placing.

It wouldn’t have bothered me as much if these fixtures were all named and described. Much of the time my character would walk past and I’d be entirely confused as to why it was there or what purpose it was serving.

DMs being aware and looking into it is a suitable solution really.