Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[Dalenger]

Some posts above really nail what I've said on Discord. The idea that meme 8 cha 16 bards need to go (because make no mistake here, they werent that strong and now they are trash tier) away as a part of this rework makes a lot of sense from RP perspective maybe, but it's still sad from build diversity perspective. After server hours of toying around with builds, I think the only times I'd ever make any benefit from casting spells is with 26/4 split with divine class or fighter, and playing a none caster is just utter crap unless its 20/10 pdk which has it's own song written for it and is still a "lowest cha that I possibly can" bard build.

I'm kinda gunna miss the 16 bard. It was prehaps the only caster class that benefited from taking less than 26 level in it and really hit a sweet spot of being a nice alternative to nearly any build. Tired of the 16ftr/10wm/4ro meta? try 16bard/10wm/4ftr. Etc.

I suppose if getting rid of this sort of 8 cha bard is the intention, than I can see the allure in that. Lord knows they're a bitch to level, lmao. I just think we'll miss the build diversity... right now it looks like the only options are 20/10 knight or 28/4 div.

Also, for us masochists out here who actually enjoy playing pure support 30 bards, I think this is a pretty sizeable nerf to that. IDK, we'll have to see what other sweets come in the foig songs.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I don't like that the changes are being obfuscated, since the class is being changed so significantly. I'd like to know what new things are being added. The things that were hinted at sound interesting, but, why would I make a bard if I have no idea what I'm even looking at ability-wise? I think it would also really heavily impact people looking to rebuild their bards, not having any idea what they're rebuilding into. There's a lot more to the server than just PvP, and I don't like that people think PvP is the only thing that matters.

[AstralUniverse]

I think the mindset here is that pvp is the only thing that matter for the purpose of introducing the more balance impacting stuff and leaving the RP flavored stuff as foig as they can, as was explained. Lets trust them that the stuff they say isnt balance impacting and isnt presented here, is indeed not balance impacting.

[Dreams]

I think keeping some things secret is fine if it's only for flavour stuff. However, I'd like to know before I make a character if there are any mechanical prerequisites to secret things that I specifically need to build for.

Alternatively, just release the mechanical information about various songs, keep the method and names of them secret.

[goblinhero]

I like the general thoughts behind this. One little adjustment, I'd love would be to have the scaling be 10,15,20,24,28 - allowing two dips beside a heavy investment in bard keeping it in line with how rogue works.

With this slight nerf, maybe it could also be a d8 HP class (again to have it be in line with the rogue changes).

[AstralUniverse]

I think keeping some things secret is fine if it's only for flavour stuff. However, I'd like to know before I make a character if there are any mechanical prerequisites to secret things that I specifically need to build for.

Alternatively, just release the mechanical information about various songs, keep the method and names of them secret.

It was said there wont be any race/alignment/etc restriction behind any songs specifically to not "haha screw you for not picking the right race" scenarios.

With this slight nerf, maybe it could also be a d8 HP class (again to have it be in line with the rogue changes).

God, no.

[Quidix]

I do like that there is a lot of nice flavour, although I did not see these changes coming.

1) This makes Master Harper insanely strong (it was already very strong), as it gets unlimited song, and it now gets 3 very useful feats (SF Perform, ESF Perform, ESF Lore) instead of 1/2 (ESF Lore is now more useful again with timestop change) netting it a total of +3 feats. Please don't make a RP-locked application class a mechanical must-have.

2) I'd push almost all the 25 bard benefits to 28, to give more incentive for pure bard, and to hit the 26/4 builds (that are very strong) - eg moving the final AC bonuses to 28 and 30 (rather than 25 and 28), or moving Acapella Aria's AC to 28

3) I like "Acapella Aria" search bonus, but worth highlighting search is not a Bard class skill, which is a bit odd (I'd love to have it as a class skill though)

3) One could link SF / GSF enchantment to some songs or benefits too (eg upgrading Dominate Person to more monster categories, or lower will saves of the target)

[CNS]

No comments on the overall balance of new bard.

I did want to say that PvE and RP focused or not I strongly disagree with keeping mechanics of a class hidden. These are the rules by which we all play the game. I get what you're trying to do, have a fun little period of people finding things out, its truly a nice idea but it doesn't really work for classes and build mechanics.

Yes we should balance around PvP but that doesn't mean the rest of the stuff we spend 95%+ of our time doing should be hidden until people figure it out. I can't disagree more with this approach.

[Garvik]

I concur that keeping the mechanical benefits of certain planned songs hidden is a bad idea. Both for people trying to get an overview after their class got nerfed and for testing purposes if those new cookies actually work as intended.

Having all songs documented and available for testing on the PGCC would not hurt the exploration aspect much, seeing how the manner of acquisition on the live server would still remain FOIG and carry that sense of "the unkown" when you actually go out to look for them.

[Nitro]

I'm also not a fan of class mechanics beign obfuscated. If they're hidden behind FOIG NPC's? Fine, but I still want to know what I can expect my class to be able to do when I make it. Even if they're only "non-pvp" uses like say finding secret doors, that's still something that I very much want to know on character creation so I can figure out how I want to spend my precious skill points without having to hunt for discord cabals that have the information already.

[vaclavc]

Hey guys,

I currently play a pure bard, focused on getting 100 perform to maximize bard song benefits. As a casual player, I've always appreciated the relative simplicity of support bards' gameplay.
This change is going to add a lot of complexity to the mix, can you mechanically savvy gurus, do a brief summary of what this means to pure bards?

Thanks in advance,
-V-

[Nitro]

Hey guys,

I currently play a pure bard, focused on getting 100 perform to maximize bard song benefits. As a casual player, I've always appreciated the relative simplicity of support bards' gameplay.
This change is going to add a lot of complexity to the mix, can you mechanically savvy gurus, do a brief summary of what this means to pure bards?

Thanks in advance,
-V-

Instead of pressing one button to buff and another to debuff, you now have several buttons with different effects to choose from depending on the situation.

[Lexx]

I don't think this is a good move for bards honestly. I feel bad for anyone doing a full 30 support build. Plus core parts of a classes mechanics should not be FOIG. Locations and NPCs yes. But not the mechanics of what a class can do.

[Quidix]

One point of clarification: Can one actually use all the songs at the same time?

If so, that is quite powerful given stacking of effects given the duration is 10min. I'd suggest something like "default is 1 positive song, with extra music / sf: perform / esf: perform the limit increases by 1 each" (this basically means some proper feat investment is needed to realise the full benefit, which is fine for feat-rich pure support bards, but not for feat-starved 26/4 divine builds).

[Zavandar]

from my testing, songs can't be stacked. I think that is both intended and good

curse song also cannot be reapplied to people already affected by it. I think that is also intended and good. Shouting someone down with the electric song, for example, would be a little silly

I wouldn't mind pure getting extra cookies but I dont think they should come at the expense of those with dips. I still maintain that scaling should be adjusted to accommodate lower bard investmen

Regarding FOIGing the other songs, I think it is pertinent to just share all songs so that they can be adjusted too, or at least be open to community feedback. bard was one of those unique caster classes that could get use if you didnt go all the way with it. The best paladin builds are 27/3 or 25/5 harper. The best melee rangers are 27/3. The best spellsword builds are 25/5 or 27/3 (though there are some 23/4/3 variants that do well but get into some obscure territory). These changes put bard in the same category now. It's 25+ or bust, which kills diversity.

[Alcomancer]

If we're nerfing bard song, we should honestly lower the perform requirements for it. They're incredibly high for pure class bards or class combos that would normally use them and pretty beyond any reasonable limits of what's achievable. Instead individualized tiers of skill requirement would be more useful, but cap it at 60 or 70 for absolute max. If we have to go to 80 to see what honestly looks like a mediocre benefit for most songs we're basically just being told more to play bards.

[garrbear758]

1. No one on the team ever used the words FOIG for the bard changes.

2. Non of the songs we haven't revealed have implications for balance, or we would have made them public. They have niche situational uses for either specifically pve, rp, or exploration.

3. None of the songs we haven't revealed have secret feat requirements or anything that affects how you build your character.

[AstralUniverse]

at 10th bard lvl the bonuses with base song + Falataer's (or A capella) are:

2 damage
1 unisave (2 with acapella)
3 skills
2 ac
2 ab
with a capella also 1 regen and 10% movement.

base curse song + 'Morning After' debuffs:

1 damage
1 unisave
3 skills
2 ac
2 ab
10 listen
5% movement

More bonuses with ESF perform.
10 pdk + 10 bard gets 20 song cl which offers a decent spot boost we all love.
the low numger of songs/day is not as determinantal if lingering song and esf perfom are selected.

I really dont know how balanced this is but on a glance 10th bard doesnt actually look as terrible as I thought initially. This also unlocks more RP flavored songs. I hope their level requirement wont be absurd for the RP focused stuff that they are

I know for sure I wont take 15 bard for just 1 more ac and only at 20th is the next real powerspike. And beyond 20 the next stop is just a 26/4 split really, for sufficient caster CL.

... What if A capella gave 1 apr at lvl 28? nvm I must be drunk.

[mjones3]

I don't know how much this would effect balance or even if its doable but what about a song that increases the effective CL of the party? Or if that's too much what about just on the bard itself? This would help with the issue lots of people are mentioning that mid level dips of the class seem to really get hurt now that its not the insane spike of power before 20.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't know how much this would effect balance or even if its doable but what about a song that increases the effective CL of the party? Or if that's too much what about just on the bard itself? This would help with the issue lots of people are mentioning that mid level dips of the class seem to really get hurt now that its not the insane spike of power before 20.

Then people would build bards with fewer lvls IF they see that it pays off. If the song itself sucks other than this boon then it doesnt worth multiclassing stuff like fighter lvls, but if it makes it worth diping for feats and more power then it would be objectively better than any other song. And remember, once you cast a single spell, you're in this CL until reset. So I'm not a fan if this idea.

[garrbear758]

Since the songs being discovered in game is clearly unpopular, we will be announcing and putting the rest on pgcc.

[garrbear758]

Bards with more than 4 levels will get a relevel when this goes live.

[the grim yeeter]

Since the songs being discovered in game is clearly unpopular, we will be announcing and putting the rest on pgcc.

Bards with more than 4 levels will get a relevel when this goes live.

Have only skimmed through the thread, and will probably try to share my thoughts on the whole update later on, but just wanted to say that I really, really, really appreciate this attitude. Honestly, openness to feedback on the devs' side has been rare behaviour throughout Arelith's entire existence, but it's also the best attitude a dev can have.

Thank you for listening.

[Dreams]

3. None of the songs we haven't revealed have secret feat requirements or anything that affects how you build your character.

This is all I wanted to know really, but it is good that rebuilds and more info is willing to be offered. Thanks guys!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Since the songs being discovered in game is clearly unpopular, we will be announcing and putting the rest on pgcc.

Thank you! I like knowing about what kind of RP cookies there will be, that's the sort of thing I make character concepts around.