Arelith

I don't make the decisions, but my point is still valid. Some things are ment to be discovered. I don't know what the auras mean, but I've played here for years. I would like to learn, but I don't want that handed to me.

I don't think "knowing" gives anyone an unfair advantage. It sounds like your mad that because you invested in the spell focus you ought know, but someone that buys a necklace shouldn't be able to out-divine you. Here's a bit of advice, make shit up. That's kinda what roleplay is about.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pm I've played here for years. I would like to learn, but I don't want that handed to me.

Different playstyles.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pm I don't think "knowing" gives anyone an unfair advantage.

Ever hear the expression "knowledge is power"?

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pmIt sounds like your mad that because you invested in the spell focus you ought know, but someone that buys a necklace shouldn't be able to out-divine you. Here's a bit of advice, make shit up. That's kinda what roleplay is about.

I only found out about the necklace after making this thread. I was annoyed that this is locked behind a hidden set of rules that you have to FOIG which was worsened when I learned of that necklace. I had to FOIG how to block Scry but since it is so universally despised, now I see it plastered all over the forums. I tried to make that Aura work for me in the past, from my severely limited understanding of them, ultimately I'm in the dark. How do I add this to my RP if I have no clue what an earth aura even means, I have nothing to work with. How about my trial and error with the Deck of Stars. Everyone is RPing, I'm trying to work my deck of cards into the RP and "The deck appears dull and lifeless" . . Then I'm supposed to go. "Hmmm, that's interesting". It wasn't long before I cut that out of my RP entirely. How can I not be frustrated that someone that isn't even a Diviner can put on a necklace and read auras or the Deck of Stars better than an actual Diviner because they know OoC? The ability should have at the very least been locked behind Greater Spell Focus or Spell Focus removed from existing items.

It sounds like someone, a pure fighter for example, putting on a simple necklace and role-playing their total awareness of the subtlety of reading auras because they know OOC is on them as perhaps not so great RP. I don't think you should let this upset you.

Magic can be totally an unknown quantity, or an exact science, and characters are free to RP in either direction. Often this leads to some excellent and consistent role play.

For example: just because someone knows the words, and the motions to make with their hands, doesn't mean they actually have any idea what they're doing or what's going on when they cast a spell.

It's all wishy washy by design I think, and from my own subjective interpretation of Divination: wishy washy couldn't be more on point to its more curious and esoteric parts.

That said - I have absolutely no idea how the auras work at all. I've been asked before IG, very rarely, but never really explored it.

There are public Arcane Tower lectures on the topic occasionally and I am sure if you put in effort you could special request one or even get a private tutor. I've learned how auras and the deck work in the past that way.. and have since forgot... I should have written it down!

It would probably be similar in the underdark I assume but a lot more surly.

When you do find the info out FOIG doesn't mean your character can't be a blabbermouth. Write a book explaining it all in IG terms and share it all over the island. I'm sure it will be a bestseller until a cabal of professional diviners assassinates you.

I do kind of agree the gatekeeping of some things is annoying and inconsistent but I don't know an alternative if it's not supposed to be common knowledge. We're not going to have a system where when you get to be an epic diviner a DM gives you an instruction manual. It's set up so you have to ask other players for help which, yes, can be difficult and problematic depending on the character but it also the essence of an RP server so you'll rarely win an argument against that.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:43 pm

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pm I've played here for years. I would like to learn, but I don't want that handed to me.

Different playstyles.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pm I don't think "knowing" gives anyone an unfair advantage.

Ever hear the expression "knowledge is power"?

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:27 pmIt sounds like your mad that because you invested in the spell focus you ought know, but someone that buys a necklace shouldn't be able to out-divine you. Here's a bit of advice, make shit up. That's kinda what roleplay is about.

I only found out about the necklace after making this thread. I was annoyed that this is locked behind a hidden set of rules that you have to FOIG which was worsened when I learned of that necklace. I had to FOIG how to block Scry but since it is so universally despised, now I see it plastered all over the forums. I tried to make that Aura work for me in the past, from my severely limited understanding of them, ultimately I'm in the dark. How do I add this to my RP if I have no clue what an earth aura even means, I have nothing to work with. How about my trial and error with the Deck of Stars. Everyone is RPing, I'm trying to work my deck of cards into the RP and "The deck appears dull and lifeless" . . Then I'm supposed to go. "Hmmm, that's interesting". It wasn't long before I cut that out of my RP entirely. How can I not be frustrated that someone that isn't even a Diviner can put on a necklace and read auras or the Deck of Stars better than an actual Diviner because they know OoC? The ability should have at the very least been locked behind Greater Spell Focus or Spell Focus removed from existing items.

Something I'm going to throw out there is it very much seems like the collateral mechanics of divination in Arelith were very much designed with an eye toward filling that theme in fiction of the esoteric seer. Like the wise woman in Fallout 4 that gets cryptic visions about the future, or any other tropes about a person with trans-mundane ability to perceive the world around them. It is supposed to come off as mysterious, it is supposed to require work to make sense of the mystery. In doing so, it creates opportunities for RP with others.

There is an attitude in your post about a heavy mindset of trying to seek mechanical advantage and not being overly willing to do the RP legwork to get there. That...Is not a very productive attitude for an RP focused game server. RP should, wherever feasible, take precedence over mechanical "winning." If your character is too proud to ask for help, I'd also suggest hiring someone to go find the answers for you, instead. I expect you would likely find your answers in short order if you handed fifty-thousand gold to someone and said, "Go and get answers to X, Y, Z divination things for me."

Bunnysmack wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:42 pm There is an attitude in your post about a heavy mindset of trying to seek mechanical advantage and not being overly willing to do the RP legwork to get there.

I did the legwork to learn how to block Scry, but now it's announced by players left and right and no one cares. I didn't make a huge fuss over the need for keeping it FOIG, I was mildly irritated that I had to jump through hoops to learn something others are spreading OOC. I have to wonder if I'm seeing something similar where players that jumped through hoops don't want it becoming widely known. I didn't want the knowledge on how to block Scry to be widely known, but it is.

Bunnysmack wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:42 pmRP should, wherever feasible, take precedence over mechanical "winning."

I agree completely, however, the often-cited "must-win" mentality is a very real thing on this server. You always hope for the best from people but you plan for the worst because we come in all shapes and sizes. Wherever possible steps are being made to ensure that everything is kept equal and fair for everybody. Some people have different ideas of what is fun for them and play accordingly. But how is it equal and fair if you have a system that can allow a character that isn't even a Diviner access to an ability that can give them an edge in RP?

Is there a reason it shouldn't be granted at Greater Spell Focus at the very least?

Xerah wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:07 pm

DM Rex wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:04 pm I'm a bit confused on what people are wanting through this thread, just a wiki explaining everything about scrying?
Given that this mechanic really doesn't have mechanical weight?

A wiki article that explains everything about the:

Deck of Stars items, and what each part of it does (including the various aspects)

+

One about the attunement (fire, earth, etc.) and how one becomes one of those things.

What I would like would be to see aspect/aura points decay, so the deck of stars would be more relevant to active characters. And maybe limit the aspects so it's just 1 per character, for a while there was one dwarf who had every single crafting one.

The necklace item is fine. When I had the necklace on one of my characters, he would spout out random nonsense about each person's aura and they believed it. Here's what the wiki will do: remove all doubt across the entire playerbase of arelith. When you provide information (especially fluff information) all the sudden everyone is an authority. That can't be rescinded, and I don't want that for some of the fluff pieces we enjoy on arelith.

Imagine my character saying another person is attunded to death, so they must be a necromancer (not mechanically accurate). If this information was provided on the wiki, no one would play along with this assumption because they can easily go to the wiki and find out death aura means something else. While some people have this knowledge already, the original people who discovered these mechanics did so through everything you have available now. Your character is actually more equipped to solve this since a lot of characters know about aura/deck of stars.

Let fluff mechanics keep their mystery.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:51 pm The necklace item is fine. When I had the necklace on one of my characters, he would spout out random nonsense about each person's aura and they believed it. Here's what the wiki will do: remove all doubt across the entire playerbase of arelith. When you provide information (especially fluff information) all the sudden everyone is an authority. That can't be rescinded, and I don't want that for some of the fluff pieces we enjoy on arelith.

Imagine my character saying another person is attunded to death, so they must be a necromancer (not mechanically accurate). If this information was provided on the wiki, no one would play along with this assumption because they can easily go to the wiki and find out death aura means something else. While some people have this knowledge already, the original people who discovered these mechanics did so through everything you have available now. Your character is actually more equipped to solve this since a lot of characters know about aura/deck of stars.

Let fluff mechanics keep their mystery.

None of this is a reason why it shouldn't be restricted to Greater Spell Focus. If it is unnecessary fluff that is meant to add mystery to a Diviner then why is it open to everyone? What do you get for taking Greater Spell Focus Divination?

Arelith Wiki wrote:Greater Spell Focus: Increases information gained when using -investigate, Detect Evil, and other things.

Whereas Conjuration gets improved summons, Illusion gets instant messages at will, Transmutation gets teleport at will, Abjuration, along with bonuses to spells gets immunity to Isaacs from a level 1 potion. Everything else actually has spells to cast. So why is this unthinkable to let Divination abilities to be locked to Diviners?

DM Rex wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:12 pm I don't see a need for everything to be explained. The basics of most mechanics, classes, even starter areas and expectations I get. But this isn't like an old style SNES with a walkthrough on every single mundane secret and lore of the server.

At some point we have to draw a line and say 'hey go in game and find it'.

I don't play a diviner, but I would enjoy the 'basics' being out there so you can investigate in the right direction. I remember finding out the means to stop someone from scrying on you was something I had to find out in-character and it always seemed like something urgent from an IC point of view. It was rewarding, so I wouldn't want to see it being known by all as common knowledge either.

I can imagine diviners would enjoy that kind of knowing conceptually how it works, but not with everything explained 100%. Just enough so that it can fuel their RP with some legitimacy, prompting them to investigate in the right direction.

I think this is a good way to go about it.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:51 pm The necklace item is fine. When I had the necklace on one of my characters, he would spout out random nonsense about each person's aura and they believed it. Here's what the wiki will do: remove all doubt across the entire playerbase of arelith. When you provide information (especially fluff information) all the sudden everyone is an authority. That can't be rescinded, and I don't want that for some of the fluff pieces we enjoy on arelith.

Imagine my character saying another person is attunded to death, so they must be a necromancer (not mechanically accurate). If this information was provided on the wiki, no one would play along with this assumption because they can easily go to the wiki and find out death aura means something else. While some people have this knowledge already, the original people who discovered these mechanics did so through everything you have available now. Your character is actually more equipped to solve this since a lot of characters know about aura/deck of stars.

Let fluff mechanics keep their mystery.

While this is also true, the same can be said for about most of the roleplay in itself, and the disguise system.

I would like it if the wiki explained some things, and how it works on theory, but left the other things to be found out.

Watchful Glare wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:03 pm I don't play a diviner, but I would enjoy the 'basics' being out there so you can investigate in the right direction. I remember finding out the means to stop someone from scrying on you was something I had to find out in-character and it always seemed like something urgent from an IC point of view. It was rewarding, so I wouldn't want to see it being known by all as common knowledge either.

The basics are out there and relatively easy to find. There's at least 2-3 books in game that spawn randomly on book shelves and players can save them in their libraries.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:12 am
What is stopping from some veteran player that learned the secret on their Diviner back in the day, making a new character that isn't a Diviner but has access to a couple of items and with their secret info? Once you know it, you know it, then you can ALWAYS use it to your advantage by either using said gear or taking said action to throw off the unknowing Diviner.

Anything that involves something not changing and a player having a good memory gives them an edge over new players. I know mechanics better than a new player and it will always give me a mechanical advantage, its how roleplaying in a game environment works. Metagaming is when you use this OOC knowledge in an unfair manner, usually to gain an edge needed to win against other players. If you suspect someone did something like your example report them to the dms. If people start abusing it to oust characters (something they could have been doing for many RL years) it will probably just be removed as an item.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:12 am
Even if it's widely known, I don't know that everyone will shift their behavior to throw off the Deck of Stars/Auras.

Not everyone will, the majority of players likely won't ever care to even bother. But currently some people go to extreme lengths to keep themselves at a mechanical advantage in RP situations, prime example is the latest change to remove true sight bonus to spot from counting towards breaking disguises. By sharing that "if you are a rakshasa and go into halfling form more than others you come up as Tiny the Tiger in the deck of stars" someone will either not do it even if it makes sense for their character, or use that OOC knowledge to out poor Tiny. Tiny could appear now and someone goes, oh hey they show up as Tiny the Tiger because they are a panther totem druid, and no one would bat an aye. You put it on the wiki and suddenly rakshasa almost 100% of the time.

This has devolved into a hailstorm of "FOIG" and "Git Gud" posts.

Is nobody experiencing any mechanical issues with the deck?

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:23 pm So because it doesn't give you an edge in PvP-

Well. I have to spill the beans on this a little bit. The Deck of Stars does actually have... some PvP utility once you know how to use it.

To avoid whatever temptation there may be to further disclose the nature of auras and the deck of stars this conversation is closing down. There are characters in game who can help explain the relevant processes and lore that is in the game. I can assure you that the deck of stars does not have a bug even if it seems like all it usually says is 'the cards are dull and lifeless'. That is an intended message for the mechanic of the deck.

Things like -scry on ESF divination don't have FOIG qualities, so that's enough to make the focus serve its base mechanical purpose.