Arelith

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 1:29 pm**

I feel like reading too much into the importance of what's on your character sheet is doing yourself a huge disservice on Arelith. At the end of the day, what'll win you an argument IC on Arelith isn't a roll of perception checks, as would be the case around a gaming table. You'll have to actually make a compelling enough argument, via your ability as a creative writer.

Effort shows. "My stat is X, therefore I am Y" is low effort. Investing a certain amount of points into a skill or attribute, I don't think has ever made a character present as more compelling to those around them. If that's important to you as a player, when looking at your character sheet, so be it. But I as a fellow player will act based on what I see represented through convincing, vested roleplay, not based on what I'm told is there.

I agree that it gets old that 8/10 humanoid characters are described as being very pretty, whether male or female, but we're playing a game where people create and interact through fantasy avatars, so I doubt that's something you'll ever escape. In one way or another, our characters will always be exaggerated in some way that we deem important to presentation.

I also find it a little boring that charisma is so heavily tied to appearance when it comes to DnD. It's entirely arbitrary, in my opinion. All of us could likely name ten celebrities or politicians off of the top of our heads that are ugly as sin, but embody enough charisma that we're actively seeking out their content. Similarly, we likely know pretty people with little to no force of personality.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 pm**

The other thing is that if you play a low charisma character as having an unpleasant appearance, it can and will sometimes limit the rp that you receive, so i suppose most people don't want to feel like they're unliked by other characters as it can occasionally staunch the flow of RP. I remember when Holly wasn't bathing it was a topic of great RP but it also meant a lot of people completely avoided her. I'm not saying i mind personally I'm just thinking from other people's perspectives that they'd rather not limit their ability to interact by being physically unattractive.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 4:03 pm**

Charisma can be a tricky stat to roleplay.

The easiest way to rp it is with physical attractiveness, as per the description, but then there are the other aspects of it, which are not as cut and dried

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

A lot of those are kinda vague. Or at least, vague enough that most people will default straight to CHA=physical attractiveness.

If I really wanted to make this complicated, I'd also point out that a characters INT and WIS score -ALSO- affect how your characters social behaviors, perceptions, and reactions need to be taken into account. A low CHA character with high INT and WIS can still -technically- be an effective leader, though less as a charismatic figurehead sort of leader and more of a sidelined strategist. People aren't gathering around them for their good personality or social skills, but rather, their tactical abilities and strong logical decision making.

You can be extremely blunt, harsh, or straight out rude, but still be considered a "good leader", if not a very social or charismatic one.

I can further twist this to very specific traits. You can again, have low CHA but be incredibly persuasive. Either with high INT (hard, cold logic) or WIS (deep insight and understanding of the people involved). -Conveying- this understanding is where CHA comes into play, as a low CHA score may mean while despite understanding the core argument, you're blunt, dry, and way too direct way too blunt and dry when speaking to the person.

Like having a high INT character, a lot of how you play CHA is going to rely somewhat on your RL skills/abilities to portray that skill. Which can be quite difficult at times.

More on the related note; it nagged me a little bit when someone with very low CHA suddenly became the most vocal, charming person in the room while being described as an astoundingly attractive person, but I never let it get in the way of having fun. After playing a while on Arelith, I found its usually easier to have fun if you just ignore what other peoples character sheets (not descriptions. those are always fun to read) say unless the rp situation demands otherwise.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 7:18 pm**

Some outstanding thoughts and perspectives, reading through these. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to chip in to the discussion thus far! This is everything I’d hoped for.

On the point of people ignoring the description/stats, or just straight up not checking them in the first place (fair enough, as a lot of people point out, some of them are LONG), to the point where your filthy, off-putting character is being hit on, that actually reminded me of a character I played a few years back.

I had a half-orc with low charisma (and lower intelligence) named Yog. He was crude, blunt, problematically enthusiastic about slaughter and carnage, and insulted people to their faces constantly. His description was that he was morbidly obese, covered in scars, missing an eye, and obviously never bathed.

People adored him.

Maybe it’s because he was different. Maybe it’s because they viewed him as a lovable idiot, for an idiot he certainly was. The harder I played up his abrasive, crass, obnoxious habits, the more people liked him. He was easily the best loved and most popular character I’ve written.

It seems to me that if you write a compelling or interesting enough character, people will look past an awful lot of in-character abrasiveness in order to spend time with that character. It’s very likely that that’s related to how people look past how utterly foul certain characters are, and find them attractive. Being interesting is attractive, after all.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 8:00 pm**

msterswrdsmn wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:03 pmAfter playing a while on Arelith, I found its usually easier to have fun if you just ignore what other peoples character sheets (not descriptions. those are always fun to read) say unless the rp situation demands otherwise.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 8:40 pm**

I find myself questioning the Dragonbone Plate (-3CHA) on average CHA characters.
Got a fighter with base CHA of 9, full cover from armor and this plate.
As long as I keep my helmet on, nobody can see my stats (although everyone can see my 'frightening' armor).
I then proceed to remove my helmet and BOOM ugly boi on the loose

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:07 pm**

So, I personally tend to see Charisma as your natural level of charm that can, but not does not necessarily include your physical attractiveness. Someone who is 8 Charisma is more likely to be on the uglier or 'average' side, something that you see and don't really think much of, but as people have pointed out, its also how personable they are and a whole slew of other factors that isn't simply their looks.
Stats should to some degree, dictate how the character is, but at the same time it shouldn't be the end all and be all of the character, and how someone wants to roleplay. Having an 8 in a stat, should be represented in someway, but pigeon-holing each stat into a specific interpretation can kill concepts. NwN and D&D in general can be a fairly.. Binary kind of game, and for a lot of builds, investing those extra 2-4 points in Charisma could quite possibly cripple the character from being viable, let alone optimal.

For myself I have an 8 Cha Ranger who I describe as effectively reasonably handsome.' He's not a head turner, but has some degree of physical charm, aided by the fact he's a high physical stat lad.
This is however contrasted with the fact he's often curt, socially awkward and very straight to the point most of the time, he, especially in the beginning, just kind of did what he thought was right without much thought as to how other people would react, or did not think to offer his opinion.
However due from roleplay and investing into leadership, he's gotten a broader idea of social interaction and actually talking with people. He's still deep down awkward, kind of gruff and slightly anti-social, but has learned how to overcome his inherent flaws with practice and the help of others.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:21 pm**

So... Charisma is not the same thing as Beauty. Gurken said it pretty well.

Gurken wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:07 pm Charisma as your natural level of charm

You can be, physically beautiful and emotionally revolting. You can have good looks, but still put off some quality or aura that just people do not want to be around. However... There is a natural affect to this.

Good looks are often associated, with likability. Someone who looks like a rockstar, can attract and create legions of followers and still be a complete jackass, and the wisest woman in the world can be nothing more than a haggard, rag covered hag.

Charisma is by far, the most difficult of the 6 charactaristics to portray correctly, because people far and often misclassify it and misrepresent it.

To be doing justice to someone playing an 8 Cha character, there has to be something critically revolting about them. Be it their looks or their overall aura, trying to play 8 Cha like the life of the party is just bad roleplay.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 pm**

It bugs me. People have arguments that they don't correlate, but they either strike me as strained or don't apply to the characters whose players do this. Physical attractiveness almost always correlates to a positive impression and the ability to influence others. There is endless literature in social psychology on this, and anecdotal evidence kind of bears it out.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm**

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:21 pm To be doing justice to someone playing an 8 Cha character, there has to be something critically revolting about them. Be it their looks or their overall aura, trying to play 8 Cha like the life of the party is just bad roleplay.

If 10 is normal, 8 is critically revolting, 12 is deeply alluring? These numbers are silly and can be read in an endless multitude of ways. Just like saying X is bad roleplay is kind of unreasonable. The same character with a different ability point spread doing the same roleplay is amazing? What if the character has bluff, preform, leadership, or drank a eagle potion to bring their CHA up to 13? It's a useless game trying to decide what is appropriate for other people do rp.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 pm**

Curve wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm If 10 is normal, 8 is critically revolting, 12 is deeply alluring? These numbers are silly and can be read in an endless multitude of ways.

Not really no.

On a sliding scale, we already know that 10 is a Normal Adventurer, and you have a Max skill of a mid-30s range on most characters. A Character that isn't anywhere near impossibly gorgeous can easily have a 16-18.

Cha like most other things is affected by outside influences. Wearing purfume (Eagle's Splendor) or wearing beautiful clothes and elegant jewelry. Your charisma though, does need to match your roleplay. And yea, I think it's in poor form to go around pretending you're the most beautiful person in the world with an 8-15 cha score.

But then again, Roleplay it. Make it unique. Make it your character. But try to keep in mind, we roll stats for a reason, and it isn't just because you're going to be the world's next greatest warlock.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 pm**

I'm more interested how someone is portraying their character than what's on their character sheet. Some concepts are difficult to be translated onto numbers and, as such, it's not the primary way I get the feel of a character I'm interacting with. I also have played a lot of 8 WIS, 'wise' warriors.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 10:25 pm**

I think it's fine to be extremely attractive with low charisma.

Just assume the character is annoying in some way: has a whiney voice, acts self-absorbed or is really trashy. Doesn't look ugly but super annoying.
e.g. Bella Swan, Ross Geller, Halle Berry as Catwoman, etc.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 10:36 pm**

I have met plenty of repulsive pretty people so I actually find it to be quite believable.

DangerDolphin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:25 pm
e.g. Bella Swan, Ross Geller, Halle Berry as Catwoman, etc.

You use a Friends reference and skip JANICE!?

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 10:44 pm**

I've had the opposite problem. For example a warlock who's ugly to look at and who has a nasty personality but she +has+ to have at least base of 16 charisma because that's the class.

This is why you can't really tie physical beauty to charisma. Charisma is one of the core ability stats and there's only a set pool of points that you can spend. If you want a good-looking weapon master or wizard or rogue or any other non-charisma based class you can't (or, most won't) throw more than a few token points to charisma without otherwise harming your build. Expecting anything else from the player base is simply unrealistic.

Like I say it goes both ways too. Almost every sorcerer will have at least a base of 26 charisma at level 30 but does that mean you have to play them all like they have almost unfathomable in RL goddess-level beauty? Of course not.

Just let players claim their characters are as beautiful as they want and consider charisma to be personal magnetism or some other intangible that isn't really related. Expecting anything else is unrealistic in a game where you're also expected to be reasonably competitive when building your character.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 11:06 pm**

Very much personal opinion here- I agree that appearence in no way entirely = Charisma. To me charisma also equates to social skill, personal magnatism and self confidence. So I also agree it's possible to have someone who has low charisma but is also relitivly good looking. I don't think 8 Charisma means you have to be vomitously ugly to look at.

That said, I think that if your charisma is 6 and yet you're playing the most beautful gorgeious bomshell loverly creature in the world, you're kinda taking the micky.

Characters are more fun, more interesting, more engaging when they have flaws, own it and roleplay those flaws.

And I'll add - I think roleplay average or low charisma as 'the most beautiful person you've ever seen' is rather cheep and steals away from those folks who have put points in it at a high level to achieve a similar goal.

Like playing a wizard/loremaster, with the aim of being an expert in monsterious lore - only to have the barbarian in mid combat spout off the wikipedia article on Maurs or what have you. That's not to say that your 8 int character has to be thick as two planks about EVERY subject under the sun. They may have a few subjects they're quite erudite about. But not roleplaying that flaw at all detracts away from the strength of others, and that's not fair on them.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 11:14 pm**

I pretty much am of the same mind as the above.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 11:32 pm**

I personally prefer to give my characters more nuanced flaws than a couple 8s on a character sheet. Otherwise, I'm not too concerned with what other players do, as I neither have the ability to know for certain what is on their sheet or the inclination to play police over something so meagre.

Someone who is fun to RP with and makes good stories will likely not stress over minutiae such as the puddle-deep distinctions between 14 INT and 16 INT, or 8 CHA and 10 CHA; they will simply go out and play their character. I don't feel the need to worry about whether this action they've taken truly reflects "what it means to be 8 CHA," because it's really not relevant.

Posted: **Fri May 14, 2021 11:45 pm**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjVb_XAFyk

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 2:33 am**

Flower Power wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:33 am
Kuma wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:03 am my 6 cha (4 with gear) freaky cyberwizard got a hot wife
It was the shorts and sandals combination. A one-two punch, my dude.

they weren't sandals they were vintage Zeeru Airs

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 3:23 am**

Strong yeet pretty much hit the nail on the head, as far as my views go.

In a tabletop, cooperative setting; for sure, character sheet adherence is probably a little more important. The DM'll tailor the world to the party's abilities. Here, where PvP happens a little more frequently, and elibility for certain build-critical feats sometimes requires that sort of stat spread, I'd much rather you play your character than your stat spread.

It'd be a boring world, if every single wizard was a social muppet, and if every sorcerer was the same unthinkingly stunning beauty. All the usual provisions about characters having flaws, not godmodding, etc, are still relevant of course - But, sure, be pretty and articulate, if that's your concept. It's dull if every character of the same build has, by necessity of the stat spread, the same flaws, after all.

I don't think you should be required to throw your build into the furnace to play an attractive WM, if that's what you want.

If I had my way, we'd lose the stats-indicator on inspection altogether. I'm interested in the character folks are portraying. Their build and how they imagine their PC representing it? That's between them and their character sheet.

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 4:51 am**

A sidenote regarding descriptions and your characters appearance

Don't rely on your description to convey your characters physical traits; try to emphasis them in your emotes and roleplay! I think one of the first (and memorable apparently) I saw of this was a Svirf monk that had a shop in Myon (I can't remember his name for the life of me, this was like 10+ years ago). He had something like 4 CHA and his description made him out essentially to be a disgusting creature somewhat akin to a goblin.

What made this stick out to me was he would display this in his roleplay as well. Like...picking the crud out of the corner of his eyes and flicking it off to the side in the middle of a conversation once. It was never over the top and excessive, but it was thrown in every now and then when fitting as a reminder that you were dealing with a filthy, unwashed svirf that absolutely did not care about being filthy or how you felt about it.

If theres something in your characters description that physically sets them apart, roleplay it every now and then!

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 6:12 am**

I'm all for playing what's on your character sheet, and I also agree that Charisma is more than just your appearance. I agree it's possible to have a vapid, insufferable beauty (man or woman, the combination is archetypal and exists on all sides of the spectrum) that could justify an 8 CHA.

Since the subject of the rule-set came up as relevant, I'd like to field this into that equation as somewhat relevant to the point being made; it's being discussed in the vacuum of a single stat, but your character's charisma is never going to affect another person without a charisma check, which includes a d20 roll added to your modifier. Your 8 CHA character does not present a -1 charisma score to everyone they meet, they present a score that ranges from person/group to person/group between -1 and 19. This also encompasses the "beauty is subjective" philosophy.

What that means, is that on a good day, maybe they're extra happy and it suffuses their demeanor, or maybe they did a masterful job with their hair, or they got extra dressy, that 8 charisma character can roll a 20 on their check, and get a better reaction from the people around them than the person with a 30 charisma if they roll under a 9.

'Charisma,' and the various attributes it describes, are not meant to be thought of as a static figure, because sometimes you get rained on after you spend a half hour doing make-up and another hour doing your hair- and sometimes you don't.

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 7:42 am**

Most everything has already been said but why not.

I've played two char both with minimum CHA. One 'attractive' and one defenitly not.

The attractive one was a drow. Attractive yes, though at the time of creation drow got +2 cha for the subrace, so I chose to make it entirely physical while the shortcoming manifested in awful social traits such as vanity, rudeness, judgemental, narcissistic, and dismissive (well - beyond the average drow anyway).

These traits, at least I hope, made the character unpleasant to deal with but I think ultimately made for a better experience.

Then I had a distinctly ugly rogue. Missing teeth, smells like cheap booze and cigarettes, unwashed, and so on. Not awful to speak to but not great either.

Either way it's not easy to roleplay many of the stats exactly and it shouldn't be required. How on earth can I hope to even be able to imagine what it's like to have 42 INT or WIS, or even CHA for that matter? The inverse should also be true, and I hardly see a reason to get ruffled about it.

Posted: **Sat May 15, 2021 8:33 am**

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 pm
Curve wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm If 10 is normal, 8 is critically revolting, 12 is deeply alluring? These numbers are silly and can be read in an endless multitude of ways.
Not really no.

On a sliding scale, we already know that 10 is a Normal Adventurer, and you have a Max skill of a mid-30s range on most characters. A Character that isn't anywhere near impossibly gorgeous can easily have a 16-18.

Cha like most other things is affected by outside influences. Wearing purfume (Eagle's Splendor) or wearing beautiful clothes and elegant jewelry. Your charisma though, does need to match your roleplay. And yea, I think it's in poor form to go around pretending you're the most beautiful person in the world with an 8-15 cha score.

But then again, Roleplay it. Make it unique. Make it your character. But try to keep in mind, we roll stats for a reason, and it isn't just because you're going to be the world's next greatest warlock.

14 charisma is literally at the far end that is possible for commoners to achieve.

Are you saying unless you are a level 15 adventurer capable of destroying armies of bugbears on your lonesome....

You will never look beautiful?

Remember - most of the world is made of 1-4 commoners, experts, aristocrats and so on. NPCs.

And they were described within various books ad looking alluring or pretty without ever getting their charisma over 12 or 14.

Our characters are the 1% of the 1% after we pass level 10 or so.

Our characters are afforded 32 point buy rather than have to rely on distributing 3d6 across our stats. NPCs do not have all these buffs our PCs have yet are still attractive.

Again consider that 14 strength allows you to lift and walk at 5 feet per round a massive rock weighing 350 lbs.

Although it was surpassed thanks to better harnesses and other support equipment...

Liftig 350lbs and being able to walk with it makes you one of the strongest people on Earth, especially if you arent wearing any special lifting belts or harnesses.

Arelith

Extremely Attractive, Low Charisma

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