Arelith

Irongron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:59 pm I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes

kinginyellow wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:14 pm I just saw the patch notes for paladin including level 23 Paladin getting Div Might / Shield for free on a use of either. This means the optimal path for building a paladin now is to only take one to save a pre-epic feat.

garrbear758 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:42 pm You still need both feats.

kinginyellow wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:44 pm

garrbear758 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:42 pm You still need both feats.

Huh. The announcement wasn't very clear on that. Well, at least that means I can actually make that paladin then.

Edit: Or my single digit IQ skipped over it.

Apothys wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:33 pm Having said that I recognise that some will be getting a bumm deal with this.

chris a gogo wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:27 pm Is this update going to stand or should I wait a week for all the alterations to go in so I don't have to relevel everything twice?

Also.
Why does rogue now have 10/lvl skill points with no int investment?
Why does rogue/assassin/shadowdancer now have perform?

Why have Bard lost a skill and gained extra skill points?

Why have druid and shaman just lost a class skill and gained nothing?

Why do palemasters get 2 extra skill points and not wizards?

Irongron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:59 pm You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Jordenk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:44 pm

Irongron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:59 pm You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Im very grateful you said this. Imagine if you had spent the last 6+ months lvling that char to 30 and become deeply immersed in RP.

A not insignificant number of people have been saying for some time this server is gonna (and prob has) lose players because ppl are tired of having their characters that they’ve invested time and energy into invalidated. It’s too much, too fast and with very little transparency. We don’t need to obsess over balance, it’s actually pretty good. A lighter hand on trying to perfect balance would serve this community well as would a bit more transparency on how and when these changes are made. It’s fine if stuff is late, we’re not Salesforce here, almost every dev group has a roadmap and a transparent decision making process to its stakeholders. As a past digital product and project manager I would happily volunteer my time to help with some simple processes/ideas that would help with planning and community management around dev.

We don’t need velocity, we need more careful and stable releases that don’t flip things on their head. If we make 10 people happy with new cookies but ruin 1 person’s character that they pretty much have to roll, as a philosophical benchmark, that is not a fair trade or a good thing. The server has a good population but this creates real fatigue and frustration and then burnout. We can’t afford to be losing great rpers over this.

A lot of these changes are totally legit, a few leave me scratching my head. I’m worried with the rapid addition of new abilities, feats etc the meta is being driven towards high str, burst dmg crit builds and we’re just creating a new set of imbalances, it’s basically balance whackamole.

Specific Changes:
Why did we need more skill pts? Now there’s fewer hard choices and an investment into spot/listen or discipline or (insert skill) aren’t an “investment.” I’m maining a sorc right now so benefitted tremendously from this, but I still think it’s way too much additional power/utility for everyone. We’re not all supposed to be good at everything are we?

Adding a saveless arcane spell failure inducing touch attack (IB’s Eviscerate)? How is that allowed to be a thing? Even at 20% failure any caster in major trouble. Not even a concentration check here? Defender has a similar ability as well. Not a good trend to add things that have no save or counterplay. Any arcane failure is a serious risk to casters being able even participate in pvp and not get squished. These need checks...

I wonder if there isn’t too much power placed into a very small number of people’s hands to decide what balance means and design/modify classes on a fundamental level? A certain amount of autonomy is required, and I love all the creativity and contributions, but the process doesn’t factor in a lot of considerations that would come from a broader perspective. I know how dev decisions are made in even well structured companies and it’s usually side convos, campaigning/debating over pet favorite projects and a lot of fast and loose decision making outside of any real process or transparency. It’s just what happens...

Anyways my characters are basically buffed this time around so I’m really just trying to advocate for a more fundamental issue. There’s a real cultural, community management, dev strategy related bit of feedback the community has been sharing for maybe years now... hope it gets heard.

Thanks for your time!

Irongron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:59 pm I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

garrbear758 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:47 pm

Jordenk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:44 pm

Irongron wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:59 pm You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

Im very grateful you said this. Imagine if you had spent the last 6+ months lvling that char to 30 and become deeply immersed in RP.

A not insignificant number of people have been saying for some time this server is gonna (and prob has) lose players because ppl are tired of having their characters that they’ve invested time and energy into invalidated. It’s too much, too fast and with very little transparency. We don’t need to obsess over balance, it’s actually pretty good. A lighter hand on trying to perfect balance would serve this community well as would a bit more transparency on how and when these changes are made. It’s fine if stuff is late, we’re not Salesforce here, almost every dev group has a roadmap and a transparent decision making process to its stakeholders. As a past digital product and project manager I would happily volunteer my time to help with some simple processes/ideas that would help with planning and community management around dev.

We don’t need velocity, we need more careful and stable releases that don’t flip things on their head. If we make 10 people happy with new cookies but ruin 1 person’s character that they pretty much have to roll, as a philosophical benchmark, that is not a fair trade or a good thing. The server has a good population but this creates real fatigue and frustration and then burnout. We can’t afford to be losing great rpers over this.

A lot of these changes are totally legit, a few leave me scratching my head. I’m worried with the rapid addition of new abilities, feats etc the meta is being driven towards high str, burst dmg crit builds and we’re just creating a new set of imbalances, it’s basically balance whackamole.

Specific Changes:
Why did we need more skill pts? Now there’s fewer hard choices and an investment into spot/listen or discipline or (insert skill) aren’t an “investment.” I’m maining a sorc right now so benefitted tremendously from this, but I still think it’s way too much additional power/utility for everyone. We’re not all supposed to be good at everything are we?

Adding a saveless arcane spell failure inducing touch attack (IB’s Eviscerate)? How is that allowed to be a thing? Even at 20% failure any caster in major trouble. Not even a concentration check here? Defender has a similar ability as well. Not a good trend to add things that have no save or counterplay. Any arcane failure is a serious risk to casters being able even participate in pvp and not get squished. These need checks...

I wonder if there isn’t too much power placed into a very small number of people’s hands to decide what balance means and design/modify classes on a fundamental level? A certain amount of autonomy is required, and I love all the creativity and contributions, but the process doesn’t factor in a lot of considerations that would come from a broader perspective. I know how dev decisions are made in even well structured companies and it’s usually side convos, campaigning/debating over pet favorite projects and a lot of fast and loose decision making outside of any real process or transparency. It’s just what happens...

Anyways my characters are basically buffed this time around so I’m really just trying to advocate for a more fundamental issue. There’s a real cultural, community management, dev strategy related bit of feedback the community has been sharing for maybe years now... hope it gets heard.

Thanks for your time!

This sounds great if this were a company or we were being paid for it. It’s not and we’re not. Things will come as the volunteers have time and a desire to work on them.

I_Am_King_Midas wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:42 am I feel like Wizards should gain more skill points if Sorc does. It's part of the Wizard identity to have a good amount of skill points. If you raise everyone else's value but leave the wizards low that's a nerf to them and taking away from that identity.