Arelith

The feat starvation is real.

I literally cant think of anything functional except Epic Star + Epic infernal, Summoner with CON secondary simply to not be a piece of paper. Undying would be nice if the DR stacked with EDR.

I tried so hard to make a dex-lock.
with/without bg dip and bucketload of ac.
with/without 24 cha and low con.
with 18 cha and okayish con.
Tl:dr the feat starvation is real.

so i just ran up a simple fey/abyssal pact warlock on the PGCC with the following.
3 abyssal pact feats, 3 unseelie pact feats
Eldritch summon, Epic Eldritch summon
Dark blessing

12 regular feats (human) - 8/4epic
Evocation x 2
conjuration x 2
enchantment x 2
empower spell
Blind fight
Epic bluff
EDR 3

40+ all saves between Dark blessing and spellcraft.
9/- DR
fits the T6 summon AND double dominate.
Infinite haste, improved invis, and Leadership bonuses so the summons are arguably quite tough.

And heres the kicker.... infinite empowered chain lightning.

So on top of your personal army of minions, you get to slap out ~180/90 damage to all mobs each round. (~90/45 each casting, twice per round because haste)
OF course you could alternately take infernal pact for infinite hell-inferno empowered saveless 9d6 damage/round for 15 rounds. (30 a round)

MY point being it seems a little overtuned to get ALL of that, infinitely.

godhand- wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:52 am

How did the wild magic component feel? Did it make it feel even more ridiculous even with 50% being bad wild magic?

wild magic component

Honestly this is something that really, really bothers me about warlock: "Why can you even do that?" It's a recurring question that comes up in various facets of the class's design, and here it appears with wild magic.

Why in the world do they have anything to do with wild magic? What do you think wild magic even is? I mean, I guess I can kinda see the thematic inspiration, but if you think about it critically, it just doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. "Devils are all about hierarchy so they can literally overwrite the local composition of the Weave, and demons are all about chaos so they just break the Weave entirely and now your spells don't work right no more." What? That's how we're saying the Weave works? If the interface for magic is this fragile, this flimsy, this easily broken, just consider the broader implications of the picture that paints of the world.

That said, I don't think the idea of the wild magic component is entirely bad. I just think it's a bad idea, lore-wise, to tie it to a specific patron. Maybe some new feat can be concocted that interacts with wild magic in some way, which would signify the fact that the warlock in question had to really go out of their way to unlock this level of occult knowledge and power over the Weave.

Good Character wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:11 am

godhand- wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:52 am

How did the wild magic component feel? Did it make it feel even more ridiculous even with 50% being bad wild magic?

I tested probably 20ish castings of spells, and only had 2 surges trigger. i presume its a 5% chance on cast?

Warlock spells and blasts are able to trigger wild surges; the chance for negative surges decreases by 2% per warlock level to a maximum of 50%.

I'm curious how this mechanic actually works, because the surge table is half good half bad.... Does this essentially mean you're twice as likely to hit a good surge than bad?

AS i said, in my (albeit brief) testing on the PGCC i didn't notice the surges at all.

Just a comment-

precision blast, and agonizing blast are all requiring epic pact (not greater as post says)

Prerequisite: Warlock 20, Greater Pact (Any), Dexterity 24+
Specifics: The warlock gains a bonus equal to his dexterity modifier to eldritch blast touch attacks.

magistrasa wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:05 am "Devils are all about hierarchy so they can literally overwrite the local composition of the Weave,

I wouldn't read this as "devils doing this". The knowledge your pact has granted you as an infernal warlock enables you to better structure your invocations to account for local fluctuations in how magic works, like in faerzress areas. Bear in mind that there are extremely few "wild magic" areas - there's plenty of faerzress areas. For purposes of simplifying the system and not having two similar ones on the go, the wild magic area and faerzress area systems are functionally identical. So being able to better resist and account for randomisation is a feasibly thematic component of an Infernal pact, imo.

and demons are all about chaos so they just break the Weave entirely and now your spells don't work right no more." What? That's how we're saying the Weave works?

Your pact as an Abyssal warlock occasionally grants you unforseen consequences of the Infinite Pit, though you're better able to shape them/predict them/account for them as you grow in power, until eventually they're almost always on your side. Almost. That sounds pretty Abyssal warlock, to me.

Given that the only "wild magic" area I can think of is that cave near Guldorand with the antmen that REALLY needs it turned off, and the areas this system will mostly interact with are faerzress-based... and neither pact receives the appropriate spells a Wild Mage does (Reckless Dweomer, Chaos Shields)... I don't think this is a fundamental setting-breaking aspect.

What's a setting-breaking aspect is the fact that many of Wild Mage (the class)'s advertised strengths directly stem from fundamentally broken class features.

also i dont think warlocks even get their power through the weave? like. demons arent going through mystra. neither are the things that press against the stars. i could be wrong though. (small edit: i tried to search for this but it's impossible because of fifth edition. great.)

EDIT:

If the interface for magic is this fragile, this flimsy, this easily broken, just consider the broader implications of the picture that paints of the world.

Honestly, the Weave doesn't seem all the structurally sound. Given that there CAN be holes in it, competitors to it, ways around it, ways it doesn't work right, and the fact that if one god dies (not actually that rare in FR) it all goes to shit, I wouldn't be holding much stock in its stability.

A prospective mage that looked at the Fall of Netheril and the Time of Troubles and decided "y'know what, nah," and became a warlock is one I'd sympathise with.

tl;dr: i just think its better to look at it as "random stuff happens when abyssal warlocks cast spells, coincidentally it's the same table that wild mages and the faerzress uses because why the hell would we make THREE TABLES, especially when one's already busted, infernal warlocks are particularly well-versed in structuring their magic to prevent such backlashes in areas of magic uncertainty".

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:17 amUndying would be nice if the DR stacked with EDR.

I don't understand how it can't. EDR is a flat 3/6/9/-. Your Undying DR will apply before that? Or after that. Either way it SHOULD still be functioning fine, based on NWN logic, at least. If it doesn't, and Undying still requires that colossal CON tax, then it should be changed to work.

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:28 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:17 amUndying would be nice if the DR stacked with EDR.

I don't understand how it can't. EDR is a flat 3/6/9/-. Your Undying DR will apply before that? Or after that. Either way it SHOULD still be functioning fine, based on NWN logic, at least. If it doesn't, and Undying still requires that colossal CON tax, then it should be changed to work.

Undying DR doesnt apply at all in that case, same as Addy bracer when you have EDR.
Edited to be simple.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:37 am

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:28 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:17 amUndying would be nice if the DR stacked with EDR.

I don't understand how it can't. EDR is a flat 3/6/9/-. Your Undying DR will apply before that? Or after that. Either way it SHOULD still be functioning fine, based on NWN logic, at least. If it doesn't, and Undying still requires that colossal CON tax, then it should be changed to work.

Based on vanila nwn logic, it wont stack either.

You'll have the EDR applying first because it's flat and has no modifier, and then whatever is left will go through the none flat DR with a modifier, and then through damage resistance (we dont really have physical damage resistance properties on Areltih, but it exists) and that's the way it has always been.

right but it's still doing something yes? i misspoke, i know it wasn't meant to "stack", but it IS still applied at some point, yes?

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:38 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:37 am

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:28 am

I don't understand how it can't. EDR is a flat 3/6/9/-. Your Undying DR will apply before that? Or after that. Either way it SHOULD still be functioning fine, based on NWN logic, at least. If it doesn't, and Undying still requires that colossal CON tax, then it should be changed to work.

Based on vanila nwn logic, it wont stack either.

You'll have the EDR applying first because it's flat and has no modifier, and then whatever is left will go through the none flat DR with a modifier, and then through damage resistance (we dont really have physical damage resistance properties on Areltih, but it exists) and that's the way it has always been.

right but it's still doing something yes? i misspoke, i know it wasn't meant to "stack", but it IS still applied at some point, yes?

I'm not really sure what you mean.

DR doesnt stack with DR. So no, it doesnt do anything. It's the same as wearing Addy bracer with EDR.

Also, the problem with buffnig Undying's DR so it stacks with other DR sources is that it will also stack with Epic Star's DR. That would be broken.

nvm im an idiot

godhand- wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:52 am
And heres the kicker.... infinite empowered chain lightning.

How do you get infinite empowered chain lightning?

you cannot.

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:21 am also i dont think warlocks even get their power through the weave? like. demons arent going through mystra. neither are the things that press against the stars. i could be wrong though. (small edit: i tried to search for this but it's impossible because of fifth edition. great.)

They do. It's confirmed in one of the FR-specific PHB's - I think the 5e PHB. All sources of magic interact with at least one of the Weaves. Warlocks are explicitly included, iirc.

EDIT:
D&D 5e PHB, pg. 205 sidebar:
"All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding, learned or intuitive, of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect."

Warlocks are spontaneous spellcasters, so I think they fall into the "intuitive" category - but unlike sorcerers, who can naturally feel the Weave, what their Pact is is just their Patron artificially enabling them to do so, and then thematically twisting what forms of magic they get access to.

BUT, Initial feedback from actually playing a warlock:

Everything before Level 5 sucks incredibly hard.

Infernalist 'locks are the only ones who really have an easy L3-5. (Infinicast Darkness + UV means they're safe from most spawns, and infinicast Scorching Ray is substantially better damage than Eldritch Blast pre-epic (and it can't be Reflex saved out of like Lightning Bolt/won't accidentally kill all your friends.))

Summons make everything better.

Flower Power wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:53 amThey do. It's confirmed in one of the FR-specific PHB's - I think the 5e

gonna stop you right there

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:03 pm

Flower Power wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:53 amThey do. It's confirmed in one of the FR-specific PHB's - I think the 5e

gonna stop you right there

I mean. If you're looking for 3.5-and-earlier loredumps for warlocks that are FR-specific, I don't think you're going to find very much, because warlock came out of a splatbook pre-4e, lol.

Disregarding the 5e stuff because it has no bearing on what we do here, what warlocks do isn't actually spellcasting in the 3.5 P&P, as per the description of their invocations from the complete arcana in which they were introduced:

A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul.

And the general description on warlock powers in the class description:

Warlocks harbor great reserves of mystical energy. The font of dark magic burning in their souls makes them resistant to many forms of attack and arms them with dangerous power. Warlocks do not wield spells, but they do learn to harness their power to perform a small number of specific attacks and tricks called invocations. Warlocks make up for their lack of versatility by being tougher and more resilient than sorcerers or wizards.

Which puts a warlock closer to a monk than it does a wizard when it comes to doing magic through the weave. The way Arelith forces you to have a planar patron is a bit of a homebrew or 5e'ism as in the P&P the warlock isn't required to have a patron at all (though they often do) they might just have a bloodline capable of accessing the power naturally on their own.

Flower Power wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:06 pm

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:03 pm

Flower Power wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:53 amThey do. It's confirmed in one of the FR-specific PHB's - I think the 5e

gonna stop you right there

I mean. If you're looking for 3.5-and-earlier loredumps for warlocks that are FR-specific, I don't think you're going to find very much, because warlock came out of a splatbook pre-4e, lol.

Correct.

And the only reason it's in the PHB for 5e is because they made FR (the already kitchen sink of D&D) the kitcheniest-sinkiest one where they HAD to come out and say it by making it the default setting.

So, honestly, I'm low key not looking for an answer. Sometimes ambiguity is okay.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:56 am you cannot.

I know. Which is why I asked. (:

Nitro wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:07 pm Disregarding the 5e stuff because it has no bearing on what we do here, what warlocks do isn't actually spellcasting in the 3.5 P&P, as per the description of their invocations from the complete arcana in which they were introduced:

other wielders of arcane magic do.

That's the important bit of that line, though, for the fluffy lore implications of things. The operative word being 'other', which implies that warlock invocations aren't spells, but they're undeniably magic - and in the setting, you don't get magic w/o interacting with one of the Weaves, insofar as I know.

Why does everyone have to type faster than me, it's 8am please slow down.

Kuma wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:21 am also i dont think warlocks even get their power through the weave? like. demons arent going through mystra. neither are the things that press against the stars. i could be wrong though.

(I swear I'm not trying to school you, just wanting to make sure we're on the same page.)

Every spell goes through the Weave, no matter how you got your power or how you cast your spell. Essentially the only thing that changes from class to class is the technique. Warlocks are kinda like "artificial sorcerers" - the pacts they bind themselves to are almost transformative in that it gives them a measure of innate spellcasting where no magical ability may have existed prior. The Weave is the interface by which a spellcaster influences reality, and Mystra is the custodian of the Weave - but she is not "magic itself" and not "literally the Weave" and you don't have to petition her directly or indirectly to cast spells. Instead, she's almost like the gardener that makes sure the Weave doesn't get overrun by weeds and doesn't wilt away. It's just, y'know, a very, very big garden.

As an aside, divine casters should probably also be getting cow-bombed in wild magic zones, because they're all using the same Weave and thus should all be subject to the same disruptions.

"random stuff happens when abyssal warlocks cast spells"

I hear what you're saying, in terms of how this stuff gets justified. And I can see why it might be a compelling enough reason to go along with. But the thing that gets me is - and you touched on this when you mentioned "things that press against the stars" - these justifications are broadly applicable to pretty much any patron. The star pact deals with eldritch entities that defy reality and are maddeningly incomprehensible. Likewise, the fey pact deals with beings strongly associated with chaos and mischief and unpredictability. Every patron embodies a corruption of reality and aberration of the natural order. And that's essentially what wild magic is; a corruption of magic (the means by which mages interface with reality), and an aberration of the Weave (which in many ways maintains the natural order). So aren't they all, in their own ways, fitting for wild magic related abilities?

When a class gets an ability, or a location has some unique mechanic, it should inspire the question, "What does it mean?" And if the conclusion to that question is an unsatisfying answer, it erodes the meaning of the mechanics. Class features come to be regarded as cheap gimmicks, where they should be inspiration for new avenues of storytelling. The world is reduced to a dry pursuit of the biggest numbers and the best statistics. I feel like I see that mentality a lot in Arelith these days, and to be entirely honest and self-aware, that feeling is what drives me to look at our updates with such a critical eye. I look at some of this new class's features, and I worry that these narrative questions weren't explored thoroughly enough.

I know I phrase a lot of my criticisms very authoritatively and you can probably see my frustration bleeding through in my statements. But ultimately, I know I'm not and shouldn't be the sole arbiter of what does or doesn't count as a satisfying answer to narrative questions. And I promise I'm not a complete ingrate - it's easy to see the care and inspiration that went into a lot of these mechanics. Warlock roleplay will not be the same, and it will be better. I feel like more thought towards storytelling opportunity has been put into the warlock update than probably any update since New Guldorand. Overall the class concepts and execution are very, very cool. It's just a good update. BUT. It could be BETTER. There is a higher ideal that is yet unrealized. And I've always believed that we can only reach our highest ideals by enduring the mortifying ordeal of interrogation, debate, and critique.

magistrasa wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:27 pm As an aside, divine casters should probably also be getting cow-bombed in wild magic zones, because they're all using the same Weave and thus should all be subject to the same disruptions.

Their god is doing the manipulation of the weave for them in case of divine spe-- why are we even doing this here. Sorry.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:52 pm Their god is doing the manipulation of the weave for them in case of divine spe-- why are we even doing this here. Sorry.

Arguably it's more that the god/pseudo-dvine entity is putting the knowledge of the spellcasting in their head as epiphanies during prayer because otherwise how does it work with druids and shamans that petition spirits rather than deities i mean spirits surely arent as potent as gods and would be far more subject to local influences over the weave and also isn't it weird how clerics of hyper-anti-undead deities like kelemvor and sehanine can cast create undead with no limitations and no repercussions haha i mean they sure can't in source books but they can on arelith and i mean if it was the god casting the spell then i feel like they just wouldn't cast the spell right like how every cleric knows and can cast harm but that's straight up necromancy and most good aligned deities probably wouldn't allow their clerics to cast it but they totally can so anyways i feel like its more important that these things follow an internal logic within areliths systems than simply looking at what the source books say because ultimately we all interact with arelith and we all understand how arelith works and arelith has diverged from source material in many significant ways and idk about you but I feel like most of the clerics in game roleplay their spellcasting as totally within their power probably because they don't understand how it's supposed to be in source material but honestly I can't blame them for not knowing and we probably shouldn't expect anyone to know anything not explicitly implemented in game Jesus Christ what am I doing with myself

[snip → moved to the uncanny dodge thread]

Other than that I like a lot how several builds are allowed and encouraged, based on different stat splits. Even though those builds that can afford 24 in both charism and dexterity look already very scary. Ditto for some Hideous Blow melee warlocks I saw on PGCC today.