Arelith

I'm a big proponent of rolling your character when changes scuttle you character. I've played long enough to remember a time when there was never relevels and to think there should be was a cardinal sin. I still hold true that this is the best policy.

But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server. It has helped countless new players redeem their character from the clutches of oblivion when they realize a ranger 9/cleric 5 won't be able to progress even in PvE without considerable life support. It saves characters that people aren't ready to give up, but are too worried to start over. It's a huge net good.

The one last vestige of inflexibility is level 1. Feats, stats and skills taken at level one are unredeemable. I see it all the time on discord or here, "can I change my feat I took at L1?" The answer is sadly no, and players will sometimes have to trashbin their character.

Let's say I went paladin to be a zen archer and invested a lot of stat points into wisdom. This change bricks this build. Wouldn't it be nice to have 1 opportunity to start over?

I don't think this is a critical issue, I don't even think this is a must have. It is solely a big QoL for new players or players that just get into the groove of role-playing a character to have a change affect them.

I also think this would be healthy for the devs to change things with a little more freedom knowing nothing they can do will brick characters. Just some food for thought.

I agree with Morgy. I've been bonked before by changes that suddenly remove features from characters I'd been playing and they go from being ok to being bad. However if given the choice between no updates like that to keep everything stable, or it happening again, I'll go with the latter.

I also agree the -relevel feature has been incredibly good. Knowing you can do it if you need it takes a lot of pressure off your shoulders.

DM Monkey wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:41 am Everyone chill. Let's all be friends.

Alright now... roll your characters and move on with new stories.

The very wise dm has said it best. Don't be so attached. Your time investment of leveling/gearing is time well spent because, in the end, you have always staring down the twitchy double barrel of a -delete_character macro. It's inevitable. Move on. Get a (new) life. Your build is garbage now. Them's the breaks.

Thank god someone said it.

Had this been solely an issue of recycling a max lvl character with all their optimized gear and starting from the scratch, then sure - it can all be regained rather easily and I don't believe that to be such a big deal.

However, once things like property and faction management get factored into it, the whole matter can get a little more complicated. Sure, you can dump all your character's wealth and realestate on another faction member and moving onto the next character, but then you can't rejoin that faction with said new character without being guilty of muling stuff.

Ork wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 pm ... But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server....

This. So much this.

Ork wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 pm But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server.

I would prefer to have no -relevel. And no mechanical changes, as well.

Tools like relevel cheapen the game in particular removing large number of consequences from it. And when anyone can change their character whenever they want to whatever they want, then rather than being a D&D game where you work around your character limitations, it turns into something else, like modern MOBA/MMO/PUBG. Or a chat client with 3d fantasy themed avatars.

It is more of "your decisions don't matter" kind of thing. Which is the opposite of what I was looking for, which is a world with active storylines where decisions have weight.

----

It is a cheat command. I don't like playing RPGs with cheats enabled. And it is less fun in multiplayer RPG, because even if you decide not to use cheats, but everyone else is doing that, that's not a fun experience either. While it is understandable that people might make mistakes, at least it shouldn't be unlimited. Once per month per character or something.

Aren wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:53 pm

Ork wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 pm ... But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server....

This. So much this.

Couldn't agree more - think it's a real shame that the feature is destined for the garbage. Used it just yesterday because I took improved unarmed strike instead of improved expertise.

Regarding level 1 changes, is there a reason that changes can't just be LETO'd?

That's what I see happen elsewhere for level 1 changes. Obviously that's more labour intensive than -relevel is but it's not as labour intensive as rolling my Nth character of the year and levelling another, which is starting to get really annoying now.

MRFTW wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:32 pm

Aren wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:53 pm

Ork wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 pm ... But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server....

This. So much this.

Couldn't agree more - think it's a real shame that the feature is destined for the garbage. Used it just yesterday because I took improved unarmed strike instead of improved expertise.

Regarding level 1 changes, is there a reason that changes can't just be LETO'd?

That's what I see happen elsewhere for level 1 changes. Obviously that's more labour intensive than -relevel is but it's not as labour intensive as rolling my Nth character of the year and levelling another, which is starting to get really annoying now.

Are you offering to do all the work for several thousand requests for level 1 changes?

I think truthfully this topic at this time comes across as ungrateful. I do think it's fair to ask what is possible, and what isn't. It might be that leto is the only thing available to change level 1 characters - or perhaps there's a system we can create in game to ensure all items/accessories/property are shifted over on deletion of the original character. I don't know what is within the realm of possibility.

But, I do know that my posts aren't aimed at aggrivating the developers for their hard work. My apologies if it came across that way. Can we table this for another time?

MRFTW wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:32 pm

Aren wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:53 pm

Ork wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 pm ... But, then we received -relevel. It is beautiful. It is elegant. It does have some gaps that allow people abuse, but by and large it is a GOOD add to this server....

This. So much this.

Couldn't agree more - think it's a real shame that the feature is destined for the garbage. Used it just yesterday because I took improved unarmed strike instead of improved expertise.

Regarding level 1 changes, is there a reason that changes can't just be LETO'd?

That's what I see happen elsewhere for level 1 changes. Obviously that's more labour intensive than -relevel is but it's not as labour intensive as rolling my Nth character of the year and levelling another, which is starting to get really annoying now.

LETO requires a human and is error prone, unlike -relevel, even though I strongly dislike -relevel. It is also a VERY unfun thing to do.

A DM on some neverwinter 2 servers could remove feats without LETO, it is likely that this one could be scripted, and it would also require a human. That, however, could result in FUN thing happening on level up, like feats disappearing and all sorts of shenanigans.

A solution that does not require a human would still require a human to script it for the first time. For example, BGTSCC has a system where you can recreate character and recover previously earned xp. For example, you feed the level 30 to "RCR BOT". It will kill the character, and it stores half of the xp in the bank. You can withdraw that xp with a new character. If you gain a "RCR Token", which is granted by DM, you store ALL of the xp in the bank. If the new character has the same name as the old one, you'd also retain all your server-side stuff, like storage, etc. This system does not allow you to sacrifice multiple characters, or withdraw only part of the xp. Also bear in mind that BGTSCC also permits muling, which creates "dragon players".

I dislike those sort of systems, as they result in character turning ingo some sort of shapeshifter that change their stats (and alignment) often. I think that full relevels should be given sparingly and infrequently, to discourage situations where somebody relevel as a rogue to open a chest in a dungeon.

Speaking only for myself I can’t take storytelling as seriously as we’re supposed to and also be completely blasé about abandoning characters before they are ready.

I am trying to be cool with changes making me drop a character but it does make me care about Arelith less and not want to invest as much of myself in the next one every time this happens.

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:15 pm I think truthfully this topic at this time comes across as ungrateful.

I might be crazy but, this stuff,

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:38 pm I am glad Paladin got some attention.

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:12 pm I never said reworks were bad. I am glad they happen.

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:09 pm The Paladin rework seems promising. I am not bashing your work, and I appreciate these gestures. I am sorry if I presented my thoughts in a negative light. Again, I appreciate and even encourage these goodwill gestures, hoping that we continue to see them. They could be the answer to help the community feel better when it comes to mechanical changes.

Thank you for your answer, and I hope that this reply is more constructive than the original post!

Does not read as ungrateful to me.

The OP asked a question. They consistently gave positive feedback on the paladin changes and changes in general. I can't find a single thing said that was negative about the change. And still,

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:22 pm You'd think someone just drop-kicked Paladins off a cliff.

This is the closest thing to negativity,

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:59 am

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:27 am And at this point I have no idea what is safe anymore. Everything is being touched.

This issue seriously needs to be adressed. I am tired/bored of throwing my characters (as well as the time I spent) to trashbin because of these constant changes. (This whining is not against Paladin but as whole)

And it's just people airing a long-standing complaint/uneasiness. This sort of general feedback does not reflect on the general appreciation towards DEVs, or Contributors. I think everyone appreciates all the work that is done. I know I appreciate the work, even if I can be frustrated by class changes that feel hard to overcome.

All parties could use a little toughening up. This is the internet.

Curve wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:18 pm

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:15 pm I think truthfully this topic at this time comes across as ungrateful.

I might be crazy but, this stuff,

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:38 pm I am glad Paladin got some attention.

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:12 pm I never said reworks were bad. I am glad they happen.

wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:09 pm The Paladin rework seems promising. I am not bashing your work, and I appreciate these gestures. I am sorry if I presented my thoughts in a negative light. Again, I appreciate and even encourage these goodwill gestures, hoping that we continue to see them. They could be the answer to help the community feel better when it comes to mechanical changes.

Thank you for your answer, and I hope that this reply is more constructive than the original post!

Does not read as ungrateful to me.

The OP asked a question. They consistently gave positive feedback on the paladin changes and changes in general. I can't find a single thing said that was negative about the change. And still,

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:22 pm You'd think someone just drop-kicked Paladins off a cliff.

This is the closest thing to negativity,

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:59 am

wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:27 am And at this point I have no idea what is safe anymore. Everything is being touched.

This issue seriously needs to be adressed. I am tired/bored of throwing my characters (as well as the time I spent) to trashbin because of these constant changes. (This whining is not against Paladin but as whole)

And it's just people airing a long-standing complaint/uneasiness. This sort of general feedback does not reflect on the general appreciation towards DEVs, or Contributors. I think everyone appreciates all the work that is done. I know I appreciate the work, even if I can be frustrated by class changes that feel hard to overcome.

All parties could use a little toughening up. This is the internet.

Yeah, no. Asking people to calm down is not negativity. There has been some comments here implying things are far bigger an issue than they are. You yourself just said people need to toughen up. Too right, they should toughen up and calm it down. Grumpy has just posted an announcement asking people to take a little more time and care in their feedback.

Focus on the topic and drop the analysis of everyone's individual comments. Not helpful.

It's sad to roll before your character feels finished, or concluded. It's not terribly even either, you can have some chars that last for longer than I am alive due to a steady baseline and others not.
Though you probably can always salvage it to be playable - mechanics define a lot of what we can and can't do however.

-relevel is nice. If its too rampant you could make it on a cooldown lasting a time, or have it gain charges. Something like that.
It seems we're otherwise limited by the game and rebuilding is pretty exhaustive of human resources.

Think its okay, hurray for -relevel. Updates are usually good but nobody should feel the need to roll before the RP fits to it.

Change and improvement is always welcome and appreciated. Otherwise the server would get stagnant. For what it's worth, I'm glad the devs do what they do. Having to work around the risk to my PCs build is an acceptable payment for the reward of ever improving systems.

That's my thoughts at least.

98lbs of sad carryweight wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:10 pm Updates are usually good but nobody should feel the need to roll before the RP fits to it.

This.

Edens_Fall wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:14 pm Change and improvement is always welcome and appreciated. Otherwise the server would get stagnant. For what it's worth, I'm glad the devs do what they do. Having to work around the risk to my PCs build is an acceptable payment for the reward of ever improving systems.

That's my thoughts at least.

A character requires noticeable investment of time, and arelith requires more time than a single player game would. And a time you spend playing you won't get back.
Therefore it is normal to desire some sort of guarantee that the character you're playing today, will not be suddenly wrecked tomorrow.

When I played Kensai, kensai got removed.
When I played Monk, monks got massive to core abilities that were prime reason for picking monks. That was followed by Skilmageddon.
When I played an Archer Ranger, they lost hips, damage bonus, and ammo crafting ability became available to all.
When I played one of my true flames, Darkness got nerfed and some spells got moved around, resulting in their loss. They also gained ability to drink potions, which I wasn't happy with, as it reduced the challenge.
And after I played a sneak, the sneak items got nerfed.

This keeps happening fairly often.

From those situations only Kensai removal was handled in graceful manner, because I've got to play it till the end due to grandfathering.

Now, I don't play paladins, so the current update does not affect me in the slightest.

However, it would be nice to have some guarantees in place. 3 months notice before a major updates that can wreck something, for example. Because while developer invest their time into improving things, the players invest their time into sustaining the world and making it feel alive, by taking roles of characters people can interact with.

Additiaionlly, things can be improved without modifying core classes. This can be done by adding PRCs and new base classes instead. Hexblade was handled this way. This can also be done by supporting player agency, modifying or adding areas and so on, or adding mechanisms that support player agency without DM assistant. When was the last time when player action resulted in permanent area change, for example? It is also possible to run plotlines....

Just want to remind everyone when talking about anything involving DM workload as if it's an easy thing, we have 153 players per dm.

garrbear758 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:19 pm Just want to remind everyone when talking about anything involving DM workload as if it's an easy thing, we have 153 players per dm.

This really does help put things into perspective

I’m really trying to stay positive.

I think the paladin changes are badass and I’m looking forward to trying them.

I have a CoT/F/Pal that I got to 30 a few days before the CoT nerf and I haven’t played since.

With today’s changes I messed around in PGCC and found that if I put all my lvl up stat points in CHA instead of STR, I can max out base CHA to 24 and the character becomes potentially fun and viable again as a Smiter.

Was feeling super excited to get this guy rolling again. Then just now I look at Discord and the CoT CHA threshold for AB was increased to 21 and 25.

It just feels very WTF.

Currently there is three people with access to the character vaults. And, I am the only one that handles account related issues (minus Hoodoo when I am unavailable). Character rebuilds from one are a time consuming adventure for a single person to be doing. This has been mentioned before but to reiterate the time:

1) Dig into the DB to retrieve the relevant Public CD Key to get the character. (~ 2 min)
2) Open the vault and download it (but first making sure the person is not online. If online, sit and wait till they are offline). (~2 min)
3) Ensure the character is sitting at level 2. (~2 min)
4) Read their request, make a dummy character and ensure the stats reflect what is legal for the race. (~5 min)
5) Open their character in a dummy server and look at their feat list or open in LETO and read feats to see if they will still meet the criteria for each feat after stat change (~10 min)
6) Make the edits in the character and reupload (~5 min) [I have to go through a lot of feat trees, especially custom ones to make sure its all good].

Average time per character: ~26 minutes.

This above time is reflective of my free time when not involved in a 12 hour shift, cooking dinner / spending time with my girlfriend, walking my dog and then handling other Arelith problems.

I have offered this previously. When I did it resulted in about 150 requests. Using that average time, you can see its a lot of commitment. And, I also do not want players to wait that long.

Would it be nice to have a system that allowed adjustment on your level 1 feats and stats? Absolutely. Do we have a system in mind now? No, sadly we do not.

I'd love to offer people reworks when a change invalidates a character. But, that is a big ask in a small window of time. I can't commit to any ETA of when your character would be fixed and in the end you'd just continue to play it or move on to something else and just wait for me to adjust it.

Just some insight.

I heard how long it took you to do monk character editing, that is entirely unreasonable to expect. If there was some way to automate things or transfer things to new characters on using a token (as in, you're granted an item and using it will delete the character and after a reset you can make a character with the same name and have your last character's inventory and properties transferred), that'd be the way to do it. Anything else is an unrealistic burden on the team.

Honestly I'd be fine giving up inventory, houses and shops if I could just recreate the character at the same level. Getting stuff back would be a bit of a PITA but not nearly as much as releveling the character to epics (and in epics amassing gold again isn't such a hassle). Seems like you could just handle this through the support ticket system too since it would just be an XP dump.

Spyre wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:24 pm Currently there is three people with access to the character vaults. And, I am the only one that handles account related issues (minus Hoodoo when I am unavailable). Character rebuilds from one are a time consuming adventure for a single person to be doing. This has been mentioned before but to reiterate the time:

It means the process has to be automated to greater degree.

See my description of how "100% RCR" is handled on BGTSCC.