Arelith

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am

Ork wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:02 am Planar Conduit and all summons in general need to be revised and nerfed. It is too easy to amass gold and xp with summons, and our dungeons don't require summoners to be attentive to the game in order to do so.

TBH I read this as little more than an eloquently put "clear these n00bs with builds that I don't respect of out of my runic dungeons" sentiment.

Because:
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons whatsoever than any build with summons can.
b) piloting summons with the player tool while positioning the summonner is actually more challenging than merely steering one's own character.
c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.
d) even epic summons need to be buffed for them not to fold to endgame PvE content. That represents a greater consumable expenditure than buffing only 1 toon.
e) anything that can be achieved with the conduit summons can be done with Summon Creature IX - it just slows the grind into an insfferable slog.

Should everything not physically attached to the character be a mere cosmetic perk that evaporates the instant initiative is rolled? Because that's the vibes I'm getting here.

I mean, I agree with you in spirit in this thread, but b-d are wrong. Micromanaging a melee character is way harder than steering summons, hiding behind summons is waaay safer than having 55+ ac because if things go wrong you have more than enough time to gs and retreat, and you are likely a consumable factory as a summon caster so no, you don't have to spend nearly as much as a melee on consumables...or really anything at all save maybe the random cross class scroll/wand. I rarely if ever do, but I'm sure some do that. A is truish, though I don't think you realize how difficult it can be to once again micromanage when things are going poorly when you are surrounded as opposed to off in the corner away from the fight, and e sounds right to me but the more I think about it the more I realize I haven't played with the planar conduit summons. Which means maybe I shouldn't be so quick to agree with you in spirit on the main point of this thread, because I could most certainly be wrong.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:57 pm Micromanaging a melee character is way harder than steering summons

How? Micromanaging 3/4 things simultaneously is more complex than managing just 1 (I mean... that's basic math and common sense, c'mon!).
Playing most melee builds is no rocket science either, why do people keep insisting that it is?

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:57 pmhiding behind summons is waaay safer than having 55+ ac because if things go wrong you have more than enough time to gs and retreat

Unless you're all about that MoD life, respawning and being forced out of the dungeon that you were trying to clear out for the last hour are often fairly interchangable outcomes.
All this seems to me like some kind of "whose stakes are higher" olympics when the stakes are already pretty low to begin with.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons whatsoever than any build with summons can.

Name them.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am b) piloting summons with the player tool while positioning the summonner is actually more challenging than merely steering one's own character.

Positioning is easy.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.

False. Solo Abby with 55 AC, I dare you.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am d) even epic summons need to be buffed for them not to fold to endgame PvE content. That represents a greater consumable expenditure than buffing only 1 toon.

Thankfully you're a mage.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am e) anything that can be achieved with the conduit summons can be done with Summon Creature IX - it just slows the grind into an insfferable slog.

All summons need to be nerfed.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am Should everything not physically attached to the character be a mere cosmetic perk that evaporates the instant initiative is rolled?

Yes

Ork wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:00 pm

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons whatsoever than any build with summons can.

Name them.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am b) piloting summons with the player tool while positioning the summonner is actually more challenging than merely steering one's own character.

Positioning is easy.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.

False. Solo Abby with 55 AC, I dare you.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am d) even epic summons need to be buffed for them not to fold to endgame PvE content. That represents a greater consumable expenditure than buffing only 1 toon.

Thankfully you're a mage.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am e) anything that can be achieved with the conduit summons can be done with Summon Creature IX - it just slows the grind into an insfferable slog.

All summons need to be nerfed.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am Should everything not physically attached to the character be a mere cosmetic perk that evaporates the instant initiative is rolled?

Yes

Hard agree. (i guess except that I think mummy dust doesnt need nerfs)

So what you're saying is that casters should not be able to do any dungeon content without a party? Summon creature is too squishy to solo epic content even with ESF conjuration. The only reason you would nerf it would be to hurt casters leveling. And I thought the general consensus was that wizards are a bit underpowered right now.

I think there's several things that need to be treated separately here, rather than overgeneralisations:

1) Different summon / pet spells vary in strength: ranger pet very strong, planar conduit strong in PvE, summon IX is okay.

2) Levelling and end-game PvE are vastly different: there are power spikes at specific levels (planar conduit at lvl 21). At end-game I don't think they are out of line. Enemies with dismiss / banishment / wof are a bane.

3) PvE and PvP performance are very different: while being strong (at times) in PvE, they broadly suck in PvP.

Let's remember summons is what makes playing support / caster characters bearable when no one is around. Also, gearing melee characters to handle PvE content is really not that hard.

I'm not going to speak on the Ranger's animal companion because I haven't played around with it in its current state at all. Anyways,

As someone who's played a few martials and a few casters, I'm not really convinced that summons are overtuned right now. Aside from being an investment that can hobble you in PVP if you over-invest, when I use summons for PVE content, I usually have to bring along a bunch of potions to buff up my summons. Why potions rather than casting from my spellbook? Because as it turns out, SL 2 & 3 spells are actually pretty useful and I don't want to have to burn all of them on my summons. My consumable cost tends to be higher than you might imagine when I'm gearing up to do content solo. Certainly, not much less than a martial's. Additionally, against powerful foes, your summons are still more distractions for you to do the real work than they are power-hitters -- at least against the more rough & tumble content.

But more importantly, I can just do the same areas solo with a monk and turn my brain off entirely. Don't have to worry about positioning, don't have to worry about anyone's health pool other than my own, and it's easy and breezy. With the hexblade I had, I found it to be pretty similar. Enemies would fold pretty quickly and for anything that did reliable damage against me I could click expertise and just, again, turn my brain off for awhile and watch the fight do its thing. A lot of the strategy for playing martials seems to be in the preparation rather than the actual fighting when it comes to PVE -- unless there's breachers or dispellers around. Which. I mean then the strategy is kill the breachers first.

As for my swashbuckler, she was a little more finnicky, and a lot harder to solo on because her willsaves were so poor that I really did have to burn a lot of consumables on her for her to do any content on her own, but she generally cleared groups of mobs faster than a wizard with PC would anyways because she just did a lot of damage and could do it consistently.

One thing I will admit that having an abundance of summons provides is more bodies. A solo character with no summons is going to have all of the ire and aggression of every enemy in the room. That means more chances to get natural 20'd, more chances to roll 1s on DC save or suck spells, and worse, a good chance you might get surrounded and be unable to escape. My shaman with elemental swarm has four additional bodies to spread damage and spells against, as well as four blockers to keep her on the back line. Elemental swarm is a good spell for shamans even without any conjuration foci just because of that.

Not everyone has to be great at everything, and some things are designed to be great at some things. I don't really see why letting PC be a crutch for casters who want to clear PVE content is such a bad thing. Especially when it costs an epic feat or two to do so. But, honestly, if your martial has trouble clearing PVE content solo, maybe you didn't build or gear your martial for PVE content. Which is fine.

Also, one time I killed Abby by casting lightning shield and chugging healing draughts on a character with 52 AC, so uh. I'm not entirely sure they're a great benchmark for performance.

Paint wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:06 pm Good stuff

100% spot on

Ork wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:00 pm

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.

False. Solo Abby with 55 AC, I dare you.

Curious regarding soloing Abby... but did it nevertheless. Monk/FTR/DD with 55 AC (no access to Expertise since this toon was made prior to DD changes, requiring 16CON and CHA requirements for other feats). Possible? Yes. With 55AC, all you need is concealment. Improved Invis wand/scroll are common enough in stalls, and are even present in NPC shops.

Kill all fire giants, leaving a Dragon cultist and Abby. Attack the dragon cultist till Abby heals it for about 5-6x (or until Abby can't heal it anymore). Then face Abby in a duel. She has 58AC and 52AB, you will need 50% concealment and true strike (if your AB is not high enough). Managed to do just fine, consuming -prays, 2 heal pot, 2 haste pot, 1 imp invis, 1 lesser breach, 1 lesser mind blank, 6-8 true strike scrolls. All scrolls consumed are available in NPC shops so no problem in logistics. Battle lasted for about 15minutes, but the monk is a dexer, hence expected.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
Because:
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons .

I challenge- I'm a noob (less than 1 yr) and I challenge. This goes against everything I have observed on this server.

I challenge- I'm a noob (less than 1 yr) and I challenge. This goes against everything I have observed on this server.

Weapon masters who can crit 300+ damage on almost every hit and have ab so absurdly high that they can consistently hit an ac of 70 would certainly qualify and they do exist. And there are many other OP builds that dont use summons...

Some experienced players here seem to be convinced that there are op mundane builds out there who grind pve better than naked no-gear summoners. This is false. Where are these builds?

Exordius wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:46 am Weapon masters who can crit 300+ damage on almost every hit and have ab so absurdly high that they can consistently hit an ac of 70 would certainly qualify and they do exist.

These weapon masters are actually glass cannons with low 50s AC and they really struggle soloing epic content without completely draining all of their gold income on healing kits and potions. I really dont understand this comparison.

Perhaps for a start, epic conjuration spells could do with a very expensive spell component requirement.

All the best summons (Warlock, BG, PC) are one-trick ponies, easily dismissed. Some others could probably use some sort of an upgrade or at least side-grade. I won't spend alot of time rehashing my thoughts on burst summons here, but this is primarily the issue. (Gate is fine - repeatable at cost, but DK, why even?).

Moreover, summons currently are perhaps the only reason non-warlock, non-melee, vancian DC casters are even playable.

And the name the builds game, eh? Okay. Ive recently played a Paladin and a Barbarian to epics. No builds, currently both pure. I have to be a tad more cautious with content on the Paladin than the Barbarian, you know, until I got divine synergy. Reverse that in the case of Dragons. I've played mostly summoning casters here for over a decade. I rofl stomped my way to greatness waaay faster on melee than I ever did a caster. And they are both geared with... whatever I found or made.

I realize that some would point to the late game greatness here, and that a casters can more easily solo Abazuur. Sure. Not really relevant since a Barbarian or a Paladin can too, with more care. That care is offset by the first twenty some levels where all I had to do was hit rage and/or divine shield and/or expertise and then go make myself a sammich. The low attention argument here goes both ways.

Even in epics, I dont understand the glass cannon comments. A barbarian like mine has low 50s AC, epic dr, temp hp, fear aura, clearing debuffs, regenerating, and criting in the /hundreds/ up to five times per round. Not to mention melee builds with 50ab can comfortably sit at 40Ab in improved expertise forever and have no trouble with most PvE content. So yeah...not seeing the problem.

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:42 am These weapon masters are actually glass cannons with low 50s AC and they really struggle soloing epic content without completely draining all of their gold income on healing kits and potions. I really dont understand this comparison.

It's so nonsensical I have legit suspicions the people posting it actually have summoner characters lol. The only scenario where it might make sense would be an effectively infinite gold supply. Have run lots of high end content with big damage WMs, they always need healing along the way.

Man people really don't want you to talk about summons.

Let's cut down the snark and condescending tone as it doesn't really contribute much to a constructive conversation.

Basically, what we're talking about is this:

This is a Conduit White Slaad Lord summonned by a CL27 spellcaster with ESF: Conju. On the left is the Slaad in an unbuffed state as summonned, on the right it is buffed with +5 STR/DEX/CON zoo spells, mage armor, barkskin and shield.

Other than having a really powerful weapon that allows it to bite through crit immune monsters, I don't see where or how it would surpass any optimized melee build.

What's the specific complaint here? Because "Burn it with fire and make it useless because I do not like" isn't really a constructive way of addressing any percieved issues.

-XXX- wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:23 pmI don't see where or how it would surpass any optimized melee build.

But the topic is "summons feel a bit strong" not "summons > PC". See... pro summons propaganda lol.

Anyway I have never tried it but would take my E. Swarm over that Slaad with some confidence. I never even bother buffing the E. Swarm. Also because NwN has collision the E. Swarm is very good at keeping AI baddies away. A monolithic -might- be better due to damage aura, but I rarely see those. I went to an IG event and had people lining up to get me to put Swarm into their sequencer for them. But I don't think it will be the feated version of Swarm in their sequencer, you need the feated version to grind higher level content.

TurningLeaf wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:16 pm But the topic is "summons feel a bit strong" not "summons > PC". See... pro summons propaganda lol.

Arcane spellcasters essentially ARE their summons when we talk about PvE. Should they be forced to use spells in each and every encounter, then they'd have never made it past the first half of any dungeon before running out of spells.
Furthermore, whenever the summons fail, that's it - the mage is packing their things and is going home (either via a lens or the fugue portal).

If we mislabel one side of this argument as the pro summons propaganda, then the other side would have to be the ban casters from PvE content movement.

Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:01 pm Man people really don't want you to talk about summons.

Your posts are usually good but your argument here is sort of wrong, and people are pointing out why it is wrong. And you're replying to people giving evidence that your argument is wrong with "ha ha looks like people don't want you talking about it." It's very disingenuous. I play primarily caster classes and I don't use planar conduit, the spell in question that people are discussing balance on. I rely on other players for epic content where I generally buff players. Summon creature 9 cannot effectively do epic content, if I have a summon out in an epic dungeon it's usually a water elemental to help with passive healing. And right now I'm playing a cloister cleric so I can just cast regenerate on people.

Let's actually look at the white slaad since the character sheet lies.

First, let's calculate epic caster summoning bonus. Slaad start out with 37 STR. Epic caster bonus for a level 30 caster adds 5 STR onto that which adds effectively +3 AB. Epic caster bonus also adds +5 AB. Slaad start out with 32 AB + 3 STR Increase + 5 ECB is 40 AB.

40 AB. Now let's add conjuration spell focii bonuses. 40 + 3 conj. Now let's add on buffs. Bull str is +2 (but +3 if trans) and AoV stack. Let's look at the worst possible situation. 43 AB + 3 STR + 2 AoV is 48 AB. If by some stroke of luck you also stacked a greater bull str pot on top you now have a summon with 49 AB. (additionally you can empower for +7 STR or +9 with ESF: Trans and not need aura of vitality at all.)

32 AB
5 Epic Caster Bonus
3 STR add from ECB
3 Conjuration Focii
3 STR (esf: trans)
2 STR from Aura of Vitality
1 STR from Greater Bull's Strength
49 AB

49 AB that hits for 7-70+20 (20/x2) that is immune to mind-affecting spells, can gain SR from a cleric, shaman or druid spell list and has impossibly high saves.

And you're going to sit there and tell me that's not broken.

As far I am aware Planar Conduits arent OP in PVE, they have an lot of faults, when not proper warded or left on their own, I dont where this thread comes from , but he most likely didnt try run High Level PVE dungeons, I got myself in trouble several where summons get dispelled or feared, wont lie not an expert in NWN gameplay or combat, but love being an Conjurer Character I must say some Summons need proper boost in some areas, but other than that not OP at all, and in PVP they are an joke against efficient or experienced players.

Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:07 pm Let's actually look at the white slaad since the character sheet lies.

I think you can get some leadership bonus on it too right? Or is that only for hirelings and pets?

Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:07 pm And you're going to sit there and tell me that's not broken.

Had those summons been attached to a spellsword, brycer, barbarian or a maul wielding WM then I'd have agreed with you, but that's not the case here.
When going this deep on summons, the character forgoes their ability to punch and face tank things themselves and has their summons do it for them.

In your example you're taking 7 feats to get there and opt to build 30 lvls in a single caster class - that pretty much disqualifies the character from engaging the spawns directly to any noticable effect. They likely need to stay out of the fray completely not to die in most scenarios.
Also, buffing the summons with empowered ZOO spells (to get the transmutation bonus) depletes pretty much all of the 4th circle spells. If we account for all the other buffs needed for optimal performance, we might realize that we're essentially dumping all of our memorized spells on these summons here.

Once the PvE fighting starts, for all intents and purposes the summons BECOME the character while the actual toon is just hanging around with their mediocre stats and depleted spellbook, hoping that none of the monsters would notice them. If the summons die, the adventure ends in one way or another.


I don't think that the summons are broken once we consider all of the above. Nor is comparing these pets to optimized melee builds that unreasonable IMO.

TurningLeaf wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:19 pm I think you can get some leadership bonus on it too right? Or is that only for hirelings and pets?

Leadership applies only to henchmen with a hard INT value higher than 9. That's pretty much only the NPCs for hire that you can find throughout the module.

If feat investment is an excuse for out-of-balance mechanics, we should've kept the old monks. Balancing should occur at the "most optimal" level, since a lot of us have a lot of experience building to the point where we can achieve it.

If mages are only a summon proxy, we need to look at how to engage mages in dungeons to utilize their spellslots more efficiently. Perhaps changing summons to turns per level instead of hours. That is how pathfinder utilizes summons and I think that's a good mechanic.

In addition: I think a good quick fix to the conduit issue is to remove conjuration bonuses to the summon similar to how gate and planar bindings work and a reduction of damage dice.