Arelith

I've been trying to get the warlock synergy feat (Eldritch Euphony) to work.

It wont fit into a blaster warlock's bonus feats or levelling needs. It wont fit with summoners who have warlock level 28 as a prereq for epic summon. I did put this together:



Which is a hideous blow warlock. It gains Bard Level 21 songs, which seems worth the sacrifice of three levels and a few feats. This would be a cool and effective build.

The issue I found was this:

Arcane Spell Failure (ASF) for Armor and Shields is reduced by 20% for pure-class Warlocks, or multi-class Warlocks with at 6+ levels in the class. This ASF reduction is automatically applied to equipped armors and shields.

Emphasis mine. What this means is you completely lose ASF reduction, even with eldritch armour. I don't know if this is intentional but this means you'd have to go to 6 bard, which means losing another warlock bonus feat. Which means you can't really manage a hideous blow lock, blast lock or summon lock unless you're willing to go naked.

Could the bardic synergy feat be amended to allow for ASF reduction to apply still on a bard dip?

EDIT:

I've done some testing and I think this is actually a bug.

27/3 warlock/anything else still grants ASF reduction

It may be that the bardic ASF reduction is interacting poorly with the warlock ASF reduction.

harper paragon and zhent enforcer dip isnt really equivalent to a paladin or blackguard dip because you need 4 paladin or 4 blackguard to get 4 apr which leaves you at CL 26 so the application locked classes are again clearly superior giving you 4 apr and leaving you at CL 27 (not to mention the extra feat)

The Vandals of Rome wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:05 am Arcane Spell Failure (ASF) for Armor and Shields is reduced by 20% for pure-class Warlocks, or multi-class Warlocks with at 6+ levels in the class. This ASF reduction is automatically applied to equipped armors and shields.

Emphasis mine. What this means is you completely lose ASF reduction, even with eldritch armour. I don't know if this is intentional but this means you'd have to go to 6 bard, which means losing another warlock bonus feat. Which means you can't really manage a hideous blow lock, blast lock or summon lock unless you're willing to go naked.

Could the bardic synergy feat be amended to allow for ASF reduction to apply still on a bard dip?

EDIT:

I've done some testing and I think this is actually a bug.

27/3 warlock/anything else still grants ASF reduction

It may be that the bardic ASF reduction is interacting poorly with the warlock ASF reduction.

Your 27/3 warlock has 6 or more warlock levels and will thus receive the ASF reduction. Working as intended :)

Kalopsia wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:31 am

The Vandals of Rome wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:05 am SNIP

Your 27/3 warlock has 6 or more warlock levels and will thus receive the ASF reduction. Working as intended

To clarify they ARE NOT receiving the ASF reduction as 27warlock/3bard but do with anything else. Eg. 27 Warlock / 3 Swash.

My initial post was born of the assumption that the warlock ASF reduction description referred to the class dipped when specifying needing 6+, rather than needing 6+ warlock. This happened because I was not getting ASF reduction at all with the build defined above.

My assumption was incorrect and I understand now that it should apply if you have 6+ warlock levels, yet it does not if you take 3 bard levels. It appears to be bugged.

I suspect it is something to do with the fact that bard is supposed to get its own ASF reduction ONLY at level 6. That might be clashing with the warlock ASF conditions and preventing them.

The Vandals of Rome wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:42 am

Kalopsia wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:31 am

The Vandals of Rome wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:05 am SNIP

Your 27/3 warlock has 6 or more warlock levels and will thus receive the ASF reduction. Working as intended :)

To clarify they ARE NOT receiving the ASF reduction as 27warlock/3bard but do with anything else. Eg. 27 Warlock / 3 Swash.

My initial post was born of the assumption that the warlock ASF reduction description referred to the class dipped when specifying needing 6+, rather than needing 6+ warlock. This happened because I was not getting ASF reduction at all with the build defined above.

My assumption was incorrect and I understand now that it should apply if you have 6+ warlock levels, yet it does not if you take 3 bard levels. It appears to be bugged.

I suspect it is something to do with the fact that bard is supposed to get its own ASF reduction ONLY at level 6. That might be clashing with the warlock ASF conditions and preventing them.

Possibly. I'll have a look!

Yet to test it but on paper the 4 APR at 28+ bard appears weak in the sense that it takes too long to obtain. Compared to a 25 bard/5 fighter, it exchanges 5 damage for an extra 2 AB and 1 AC.

My question is:
1. Does the extra APR act like Haste where it's made at full BAB?
2. What if the extra APR was provided to pure bards at 21+? The difference between 21 and 28 are nothing as we known for certain they can't increase their APR naturally now that they've hit epic levels. The moment someone multiclasses they lose the bonus.

On the wiki bards now get "inspiring minstrel" at level 20. Does this mean that bards get lasting inspiration for free, or that lasting inspiration can be taken at 20 bard (that is level 21 at earliest), as opposed to the default 25 hard perform ranks?

Wethrinea wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:19 am On the wiki bards now get "inspiring minstrel" at level 20. Does this mean that bards get lasting inspiration for free, or that lasting inspiration can be taken at 20 bard (that is level 21 at earliest), as opposed to the default 25 hard perform ranks?

it is simply a qualifier feat to replace the previous requirement of level 20 bardsong. you may have noticed that I changed the hardcoded method behind Bard Song so that the charges are more dynamic. Before I did that, you could only gain one bard song charge per bard level. Since that feat line was removed, it needed to be replaced with something. You still need to meet the perform requirements.

jomonog wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:16 am harper paragon and zhent enforcer dip isnt really equivalent to a paladin or blackguard dip because you need 4 paladin or 4 blackguard to get 4 apr which leaves you at CL 26 so the application locked classes are again clearly superior giving you 4 apr and leaving you at CL 27 (not to mention the extra feat)

You lose the CL bonus if you don't take a 5th level in these classes.

Good Character wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:47 am Yet to test it but on paper the 4 APR at 28+ bard appears weak in the sense that it takes too long to obtain. Compared to a 25 bard/5 fighter, it exchanges 5 damage for an extra 2 AB and 1 AC.

My question is:
1. Does the extra APR act like Haste where it's made at full BAB?
2. What if the extra APR was provided to pure bards at 21+? The difference between 21 and 28 are nothing as we known for certain they can't increase their APR naturally now that they've hit epic levels. The moment someone multiclasses they lose the bonus.

It's a convenience meant for pure 30 bards and nothing else. It isn't meant to make 30 bard better than a full bab dip.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:42 pm You lose the CL bonus if you don't take a 5th level in these classes.

But you take it and then you end up 1 CL higher compared to 26/4 bg or pal. That's what he meant, I think.

And I kind of agree. I think that balance wise, because these classes earn you 1 extra epic feat and a bunch of cookies, they should logically be 1 CL lower than 26/4 pal bg dips, not 1 CL higher. Wouldnt you agree?

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:54 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:42 pm You lose the CL bonus if you don't take a 5th level in these classes.

But you take it and then you end up 1 CL higher compared to 26/4 bg or pal. That's what he meant, I think.

And I kind of agree. I think that balance wise, because these classes earn you 1 extra epic feat and a bunch of cookies, they should logically be 1 CL lower than 26/4 pal bg dips, not 1 CL higher. Wouldnt you agree?

26 bard 4 paladin - 26 cl
25 bard 5 ze/hp - 26 cl

This is what was thought fair to put those two classes in line with Paladin and Blackguard dips (as you also pay feat taxes for the application classes). You're saying that if it were 25 cl vs 26 cl that ze and hp would still be a more desirable dip than 4 paladin or Blackguard at 25 cl?

1. Having an hour long song means a bard can just sit in the hub or guildhouse or whatever and buff everyone on their way out without having to risk themselves. This goes against the design intentions of song dropping when the bard dies.

2. The heavy armor / tower shield nerf seems super unnecessary and I really don't understand what it's trying to accomplish.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:42 pm It's a convenience meant for pure 30 bards and nothing else. It isn't meant to make 30 bard better than a full bab dip.

It doesn't, though, is my point which is why it shouldn't be locked behind 28+. While certainly the 2 AB seems attractive, it hardly means much on a build that already hits 50 AB without even using taunt or knockdown, which both reliably land. The 5 damage is more attractive because the build only hits 39 damage without it - an average to below average amount.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:01 pm
26 bard 4 paladin - 26 cl
25 bard 5 ze/hp - 26 cl

This is what was thought fair to put those two classes in line with Paladin and Blackguard dips (as you also pay feat taxes for the application classes). You're saying that if it were 25 cl vs 26 cl that ze and hp would still be a more desirable dip than 4 paladin or Blackguard at 25 cl?

Apologies I misread the update thinking it gave harper/zhent +1 for each level above 3rd level (not +1 in total) so the way you describe it works here is absolutely fair.

Good Character wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:30 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:42 pm It's a convenience meant for pure 30 bards and nothing else. It isn't meant to make 30 bard better than a full bab dip.

It doesn't, though, is my point which is why it shouldn't be locked behind 28+. While certainly the 2 AB seems attractive, it hardly means much on a build that already hits 50 AB without even using taunt or knockdown, which both reliably land. The 5 damage is more attractive because the build only hits 39 damage without it - an average to below average amount.

You want to give bards 6 APR?

garrbear758 wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:56 pm 1. Having an hour long song means a bard can just sit in the hub or guildhouse or whatever and buff everyone on their way out without having to risk themselves. This goes against the design intentions of song dropping when the bard dies.

I agree. Bard song is perhaps the most powerful group buff in the game. Giving someone an -hour- of so much AC/AB/Damage/Saves/Skills AND the individual song buffs like 50% movement speed increase, scry immunity, etc, is way too strong (and it's unpurgeable to my knowledge). I think the 15 minute cap with lingering/lasting feats was a good balance. Heck 10 minutes was strong for just having lasting, especially given song recharge is below ten minutes nowadays.

I can forsee, for example, PCs in the main settlements giving out 60 min songs for players to run epic dungeons, and not even joining them for it.

The APR at 28 on selfish solo will not be being moved to earlier, it was put there as a choice for pure bards to either self sustain in pve or support others, not to empower a build meta further.

What about:

- Capping song at 15min
- Unremitting Cadence gives 15min song, but does not require lasting inspiration

This way, Unremitting Cadence is the same as Lasting Inspiration + Lingering Song, but in one feat rather than two (which require high charisma to get).

Quidix wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:39 pm What about:

- Capping song at 15min
- Unremitting Cadence gives 15min song, but does not require lasting inspiration

This way, Unremitting Cadence is the same as Lasting Inspiration + Lingering Song, but in one feat rather than two (which require high charisma to get).

Unremitting is useful otherwise. I'll just remove the song duration increase from it.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:43 am

Quidix wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:39 pm What about:

- Capping song at 15min
- Unremitting Cadence gives 15min song, but does not require lasting inspiration

This way, Unremitting Cadence is the same as Lasting Inspiration + Lingering Song, but in one feat rather than two (which require high charisma to get).

Unremitting is useful otherwise. I'll just remove the song duration increase from it.

I would love if Unremitting Cadence as an alternative option to lasting inspiration, making non cha build to take lasting inspiration to extend their song, and the cadence to for CHA builds.

If the issue of the duration is for buffing in town other people and the bard to stay away. and it will be removed, could at least the following options be considered:

A) Players loses the song effect when leaving the party group.
B) The duration is still x4, only for self.
C) Make Song of the Heart requirement only lasting inspiration, as Unremitting Cadence will not alter the song at all with the change, which would make it a strange prerequisite.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:17 pm You want to give bards 6 APR?

How would that happen?

Sincra wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:23 pm The APR at 28 on selfish solo will not be being moved to earlier, it was put there as a choice for pure bards to either self sustain in pve or support others, not to empower a build meta further.

I'm not quite sure how it empowers an existing build or furthers a specific build meta. It's a side-step to an existing build at best.

If it's to remain to be given at 28+, it should be scrapped to not give people the idea that it's somehow a reward to sticking to 30 bard due to the consistenty of going pure rewarding players (e.g. fighter, spellsword, knight, monk).

Good Character wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:13 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:17 pm You want to give bards 6 APR?

How would that happen?

Sincra wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:23 pm The APR at 28 on selfish solo will not be being moved to earlier, it was put there as a choice for pure bards to either self sustain in pve or support others, not to empower a build meta further.

I'm not quite sure how it empowers an existing build or furthers a specific build meta. It's a side-step to an existing build at best.

If it's to remain to be given at 28+, it should be scrapped to not give people the idea that it's somehow a reward to sticking to 30 bard due to the consistenty of going pure rewarding players (e.g. fighter, spellsword, knight, monk).

No.

Good Character wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:13 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:17 pm You want to give bards 6 APR?

How would that happen?

um

because it would just be buffing a build that gets 4 apr from 4 pre-epic full bab levels ...

4 apr
+ haste
+ selfish solo apr
....= 6

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:54 am um

because it would just be buffing a build that gets 4 apr from 4 pre-epic full bab levels ...

4 apr
+ haste
+ selfish solo apr
....= 6

From what I previously suggested: "What if the extra APR was provided to pure bards at 21+? The difference between 21 and 28 are nothing as we known for certain they can't increase their APR naturally now that they've hit epic levels. The moment someone multiclasses they lose the bonus."

Good Character wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:57 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:54 am um

because it would just be buffing a build that gets 4 apr from 4 pre-epic full bab levels ...

4 apr
+ haste
+ selfish solo apr
....= 6

From what I previously suggested: "What if the extra APR was provided to pure bards at 21+? The difference between 21 and 28 are nothing as we known for certain they can't increase their APR naturally now that they've hit epic levels. The moment someone multiclasses they lose the bonus."

Now I understand. I suppose I misunderstood. Apologies.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:10 am
Now I understand. I suppose I misunderstood. Apologies.

No problem at all. Not sure if this was answered earlier, but is the extra APR made at full BAB? I can see that as an definite consideration for a melee build to go pure bard.