Arelith

What do you mean "Now"

Bards were always able to break quarters, you just needed some DEX

How the hell is the main issue with the bard that they can break quarters easier than before ( as in instead of having to copy rogue cunning books, you just cast it yourself now, bwuh ) and not the fact that they auto-win every PvP and are mandatory at this point in any group PvP scenario unless you wanna roleplay sitting on your butt cause you're getting knocked down 24/7

You have some weird priorities for healthy server environment. People who wanna break quarters are gonna build a character who does it one way or the other

This isn't the main issue. This is an issue. Previously bards had to dip rogue or a class with ol/dt/search, now they don't.

You're welcome to discuss the other aspect of bard in another thread.

Adding Bard to the list of classes to delete:

• Monk
• Druid
• Bard

Getting broken into a couple times was by far the most exciting thing to happen in my inn room. But that wasn't just some random looking to gank from my chest. That sounds boring for everyone. Surely nobody's heart is set to racing knowing that between npc/engine limitations and a peek at the player list there's essentially no risk or chance of failure in their endeavor.

Sincra wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:32 pm The OL/DT song can be taken with rogue, 20 bard/10 rogue I am told. Removing skills achieves nothing except making this particular split more incentivised, it even gets more skill points

The difference is a 20 bard / 10 rogue is an objectively worse build than pure bard. No amount of extra skill points make up for that. Hell, even for a skillmonkey pure bard is better.

10 Rogue levels = 40 skillpoints over bard (52 if taken at level 1). Since there is a cap on skills this isn't any increase in the skills they invest in, it's 1.5 more skills that can be capped.

Skill bonus from pure bard vs 20 bard song for open lock / listen / disable trap / disc = 6.
Skill bonus from pure bard vs 20 bard song for search / sail = 8.
And that's not accounting for other significant advantages to pure such as the better buffs for your party or the new epic bard feats.

Building in nwn and especially arelith is all about minmaxing, and having +6 to 8 to a few skills (and at least +4 to all skills) is much more valuable than how many skills you can invest in, without getting into how much more useful those skill bonuses are in a group setting.

Pure bard is extremely strong right now, and if you want to build into quarter breaking there should be tradeoffs, which no longer exist due to the new bard class skills. Even without discussing quarterbreaking, pure bard in general is significantly overshadowing any other bard build and needs toning down, if not reverting most of the recent bard updates entirely.

So much hyperbole. Bards could always lower your discipline, and totally buff the group of people kicking your Snuggybear. This is not a new thing with these changes or the last changes or really any changes, its just part of the class abilities. All the recent changes did was make them on par with most other classes as far as solo leveling goes, and the second bard not completely pointless in a group. Everything else was already baked into the class, its just gotten more appealing because of those two things to play which is why you are seeing them all over.

Maybe the skill point thing can be toned down some how, maybe with class kits that involve a give and take so you keep the jack of all trades aspect. I dunno, I don't care about qbreaking personally and i don't care that others do it. But as far as I'm concerned, bard is the same cool class its always been that is really good in group play, and I would absolutely hate to see another variation to game play be smushed yet again in the name of unattainable balance.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:43 pm So much hyperbole. Bards could always lower your discipline, and totally buff the group of people kicking your Snuggybear. This is not a new thing with these changes or the last changes or really any changes, its just part of the class abilities. All the recent changes did was make them on par with most other classes as far as solo leveling goes, and the second bard not completely pointless in a group. Everything else was already baked into the class, its just gotten more appealing because of those two things to play which is why you are seeing them all over.

Maybe the skill point thing can be toned down some how, maybe with class kits that involve a give and take so you keep the jack of all trades aspect. I dunno, I don't care about qbreaking personally and i don't care that others do it. But as far as I'm concerned, bard is the same cool class its always been that is really good in group play, and I would absolutely hate to see another variation to game play be smushed yet again in the name of unattainable balance.

This is really the issue.

I am one who dislikes quarterbreaking since in general (not to say all the time), it is simply to steal things with no RP, PvP someone (can be good on those rare occasions PvP is actually used to help a story), whatever.

Bards are still in many ways weaker than they used to be from the fact that the old bard song was bonkers and buffed EVERYTHING to max. Now, sure, you can make one aspect super strong with a bard song and building a character for a specific reason, but everything else suffers. And even then, if you try to max out bard song, you likely have the fighting ability of a wet noodle thanks to the divine dip changes.

The issue with quarterbreaking is one that I say can be fixed rather simply, albeit unfortunately with direct DM intervention (sorry for more work, DMs!).

Make quarters unbreakable initially. Then require DM permission or a token with so many charges that allow a character so many attempts to break a quarter. When the charges run out, they have to reapply for a new token and the DMs can always review how things went the first time to see if it was used in a constructive way or abused.

This way, you have to both be able to mechanically break into a quarter and you have to have a valid RP reason to do so (I would count "being curious as to what is inside" as valid, by the way. Not all acts have to be done with malicious intent). And the DMs can regulate how it is done.

Seems the most reasonable way to do it, prevent stupidity, whilst still allowing quarterbreaking to be a thing for those times when it could generate RP or force someone who tries to hide in their room to escape IC consequences of actions to face those consequences.

One other comment too about specialized characters. Characters like dedicated quarterbreakers are stuck with a singular focus and are likely mostly useless for other things. Same goes for dedicated listeners, spotters, stealthers, whatever. And so on.

Plus the big kicker...they still have to have the skill points to do all of that too and skill points are precious now that so many skills do so many useful things.

Otherwise though, bard is fine as it is. In fact, I would argue that bard is finally interesting enough to play now! My hat is off to the devs for making one of the most traditionally boring classes mechanically (it may have been considered powerful being able to buff and debuff, but man it was boring!) into something that has all sorts of potential niches and uses depending on how you wish to build your character.

garrbear758 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:36 pm

Sincra wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:32 pm The OL/DT song can be taken with rogue, 20 bard/10 rogue I am told. Removing skills achieves nothing except making this particular split more incentivised, it even gets more skill points

The difference is a 20 bard / 10 rogue is an objectively worse build than pure bard. No amount of extra skill points make up for that. Hell, even for a skillmonkey pure bard is better.

10 Rogue levels = 40 skillpoints over bard (52 if taken at level 1). Since there is a cap on skills this isn't any increase in the skills they invest in, it's 1.5 more skills that can be capped.

Skill bonus from pure bard vs 20 bard song for open lock / listen / disable trap / disc = 6.
Skill bonus from pure bard vs 20 bard song for search / sail = 8.
And that's not accounting for other significant advantages to pure such as the better buffs for your party or the new epic bard feats.

Building in nwn and especially arelith is all about minmaxing, and having +6 to 8 to a few skills (and at least +4 to all skills) is much more valuable than how many skills you can invest in, without getting into how much more useful those skill bonuses are in a group setting.

Pure bard is extremely strong right now, and if you want to build into quarter breaking there should be tradeoffs, which no longer exist due to the new bard class skills. Even without discussing quarterbreaking, pure bard in general is significantly overshadowing any other bard build and needs toning down, if not reverting most of the recent bard updates entirely.

Just to clear this up, I am not defending the situation of bard, but the points I made are those I myself have observed others making, this one in particular was put forward by Build advisors as if it was some horrific variant that needs only be mentioned in private.

I don't believe a revert is needed, the situation isn't dire.

It just needs tweaks to reach the power level intended, which is so often the case with swathe adjustments, the first mark is missed by maybe a degree or two.

Griefmaker wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:20 pm In fact, I would argue that bard is finally interesting enough to play now! My hat is off to the devs for making one of the most traditionally boring classes mechanically (it may have been considered powerful being able to buff and debuff, but man it was boring!) into something that has all sorts of potential niches and uses depending on how you wish to build your character.

Agreed. Before the changes, if you played bard, you were: the good div dip build, a meme, or a disc dip. I would have never played any these prior to now. The the solo QB issue is a valid discussion, but the idea of reverting the changes is a complete non-starter in terms of constructive feedback.

Sincra wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:50 am Just to clear this up, I am not defending the situation of bard, but the points I made are those I myself have observed others making, this one in particular was put forward by Build advisors as if it was some horrific variant that needs only be mentioned in private.

I misunderstood the skill mastery update and I'm sorry for being edgy about it on discord so whatever I said in a PM is irrelevant truthfully. But as I *also* said on discord (and that's my main concern here really) it's the fact that bard can solo qb and also still be good at leveling solo and being very hard to kill in party pvp while providing your party auto-win if the enemy team doesnt also have a bard, that's my current concern. The fact solo QB is even possible is a big problem imo, and even more so now that these builds arent useless outside of solo QB and can also level to 30 solo, which is the main difference compared to before. There used to be a HUGE drawback from making a solo QB build, but now... there just isnt.

The main problem with Arelith is that classes have to be balanced to the small minority of characters who do things like quarter breaking. Every bard that does not go hard on dex and int to do that, ie the vast majority, just have more options, as their number of skill points remain the same. That you can now make a str based bard, or a charisma based bard, or even a dexer and still be useful is a fantastic change.

But I do agree that the change make specialist a rather obsolete class, with the exception to the builds where you need a bonus ESF and can spare a pre-epic feat.

Hello friends, I am transferring my post from the newest QB thread, as it is better suited here:

With the current state of Bard, they are able to solo speed level to 30 and to perform solo quarter breaking. It feels it is a matter of time before everyone will have a solo QB bard character in their vault, for the wrong reasons.

The worst thing about it is, a bard is traditionally one of the most RP intensive classes. Not being able to lvl to 30 solo was one of its strengths, as people had to double down on their class choice and whip out their best RP game when creating a bard IF they were committed to hit 30 with it.

Now I think I can create a 30 bard quarterbreaker on my own and not even speak to another PC until I hit 30 and just go about busting people's houses

PS: I am not saying Bard being mechanics savvy and able to solo stuff is the main issue here. I think the main issue is Bard having Open Lock and Disable Trap as trained skills.

Here's my recommendation:

• Revert bard class skills
• Remove good hope from bard spells
• Remove Rogue's Cunning from bard spells
• Nerf Pilfering Poem

If bards want to quarterbreak, they should make meaningful sacrifices to achieve it. When the most important aspect of a bard is bard levels, a quarterbreaker should sacrifice some bard levels to achieve their objective.

Kenji wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:13 am Adding Bard to the list of classes to delete:

• Monk
• Druid
• Bard

Kenji, you are my hero

Delete also Rogue and shadow dancer too

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:12 pm Here's my recommendation:

• Revert bard class skills
• Remove good hope from bard spells
• Remove Rogue's Cunning from bard spells
• Nerf Pilfering Poem

If bards want to quarterbreak, they should make meaningful sacrifices to achieve it. When the most important aspect of a bard is bard levels, a quarterbreaker should sacrifice some bard levels to achieve their objective.

I've already put a solution to the team, it just needs consensus.
This in particular feels a bit extreme to do all at once so we'll see.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:44 am

Sincra wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:50 am Just to clear this up, I am not defending the situation of bard, but the points I made are those I myself have observed others making, this one in particular was put forward by Build advisors as if it was some horrific variant that needs only be mentioned in private.

I misunderstood the skill mastery update and I'm sorry for being edgy about it on discord so whatever I said in a PM is irrelevant truthfully. But as I *also* said on discord (and that's my main concern here really) it's the fact that bard can solo qb and also still be good at leveling solo and being very hard to kill in party pvp while providing your party auto-win if the enemy team doesnt also have a bard, that's my current concern. The fact solo QB is even possible is a big problem imo, and even more so now that these builds arent useless outside of solo QB and can also level to 30 solo, which is the main difference compared to before. There used to be a HUGE drawback from making a solo QB build, but now... there just isnt.

Wasn't aimed at you! I was told by someone else the build you were likely referencing, don't believe you pm'd me it.
I'm generally of the opinion solo qb shouldn't be viable so I am leaning on the issue that way.

Sincra wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:06 pm I've already put a solution to the team, it just needs consensus.
This in particular feels a bit extreme to do all at once so we'll see.

Ideally just nerf Solo QB as much as possible or outright remove it. Bard as a class will still remain hilariously strong and there's nothing to worry about.

I think that's hella fair. There's really only a few ways to hit the 127DC, and bard just happens to be one of them. I do still stand by that class skills need a reduction, but I'm grateful for any change to make bard a one-man skill monkey.

It might be useful to calculate all the ways to 127DC so that quarterbrakers have a 5% chance of success (on a natural 20) but also a 5% chance of triggering the trap. That way you'll have more people interested in dipping rogue for the feat. Currently bards have a 15% chance to get 127DC with a 5% chance of trap failure.

i think a class giving an entire party an effective 10-12 ab (depending on if anyone else is providing aid and leadership) and 10 ac is a little wild. this, plus the swings of the skills and unisaves. and it's not like you're useless otherwise.

i feel bad for rogues. the martial aspects of their class fantasy are largely fulfilled by swash, and the skill-monkey aspect greatly overshadowed by bard.

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:55 pm i think a class giving an entire party an effective 10-12 ab (depending on if anyone else is providing aid and leadership) and 10 ac is a little wild. this, plus the swings of the skills and unisaves. and it's not like you're useless otherwise.

i feel bad for rogues. the martial aspects of their class fantasy are largely fulfilled by swash, and the skill-monkey aspect greatly overshadowed by bard.

Not to mention bards can scry ward with a song now too. Rogues get a 7 minute imp invis wand, and people get really angry if you suggest to lengthen the duration. "jUsT gO ReNt A rOOm", ok I'll carry the scry warded room with me while I'm stealthing in places I should not be. thx for the great advice.

I'm not the biggest fan of sea shanties either.

Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?

msterswrdsmn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:02 pm Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?

It depends on what you consider crippling yourself. Its not going to be pretty, but you could make a high dex high int qber that happens to be able to turtle up really well in group pvp while buffing the rest of the gang. If you mean "my bard qber also wants to be a monster solo pvp god" and its inability to do that is crippling, then yeah. Because you can't do that. Hell, I still think for that sort of build you want to dip same as it always was.

And yeah, I spent a lot of time messing around with bards because I made one about a week before these changes, so I feel I can confidently say that these recent changes gave bards more options to be skill specialists (all the skills! though choices still have to be made), made them better at solo dungeoneering (I was floundering in the mid teens for a week, I hit thirty today thanks to these changes), and have made it less pointless to be in a group with another bard (selfish solo is the best song, but it only buffs yourself. So one bard buffs the group, the other uses selfish solo. And yeah I was wrong when I called this not good enough.). Thats it. All the other nonsense people are on about have always been a thing, and were actually once stronger with vanilla since it buffed all the skills and debuffed all the skills with the same two songs instead of having to take a round to switch it up if you want to attack different things. The trade off to that for the new songs was that some of the skill specific songs now boosted 20, whereas the vanilla bard song I think maxed out at 17, but i might be wrong on that. Curse was definitely 17 though, and I think most of the debuffs are still 17 with the new songs there. So yeah, the only difference is people are actually playing them now.

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:12 pm If bards want to quarterbreak, they should make meaningful sacrifices to achieve it. When the most important aspect of a bard is bard levels, a quarterbreaker should sacrifice some bard levels to achieve their objective.

just to be clear - the previous solo QB bard was a 26/4rogue split - which is pretty standard in terms of a dip (27/3 26/4)

the "sacrifice" was a couple extra points on skills & 1ab/ac on song + 3 or 4 more CL on spells.



The problem with theory crafting and spreadsheet mathematics - is that it doesn't take into consideration gameplay.

Yes, solo QB CAN hit a 10-15% chance of success on a trap (Actually, its 15%*15% = 2.25% - Because there is an invisible SEARCH ROLL to even see the trap, which you also only have 10-15% on)

Combine that with the new changes where you can't spam doors, and every attempt takes 5+ seconds for the roll..... means quarterbreaking becomes a painfully long process.
Before these changes it would take 20-30 minutes to break into a maxxed out quarter. - I was a QB, I broke into many and i can verify that it legitimately took that long to do.

Now you're adding an additional time barrier of a 5-fold increase per attempt....

In spreadshet theory, playing a quarterbreaker is easier than ever- but its also a BIGGER WASTE OF TIME than ever, with new daily thievery limits introduced combined with new delays on quarter mechanics.... Its a waste of time.

msterswrdsmn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:02 pm Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?

You're putting a minimum of 7 feats into skill focii.

It is completely gimped and unable to do anything beyond quarter break.

Its constitution will be 10-12.
Its strength will be 8-10.

Its basically a commoner with handy dandy lockpicking skills who can sing, kind of.... and cast some spells.... So not really a commoner... Just a weak bard.