Is it Too Easy to be a Non-Evil Monster?

[Edens_Fall]

There is currently a vibe, at least from my own view point, that Andunor is a "Neutral" trade city that allows anyone to come and visit for shops long as they don't cause trouble within the town.

If this is the vision of the staff, then I don't think a massive amount on Neutral monster races is a bad thing. In fact it kind of works towards that goal right? Plus wouldn't monsters who live and work in a Neutral trade city slowly become Neutral themselves over time and exposure? Like a type of conversion.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

One of Andunor's greatest sins and a theme constantly pushed out by our players is a "united" Andunor. You can't escape the motif for even a second and you're immediately propositioned by characters to join their faction which all are working towards a "strong Andunor" - whatever that means.

This theme isn't new, but it certain has reached its apex with players collectively punitizing characters that aren't interested in a "united Andunor".

I don't know a solution, but it is very tiring to play in Andunor. A good portion of this issue is the playerbase's rationalization that if they start a fight with someone, they're going to be fighting that same someone for as long as either continue playing. And, they're more likely to encounter that adversary routinely because there's really no where else for them to go.

Pretty much the case unless you're dealing with someone reasonable. I was out doing writs yesterday and ran into a drow house that was very traditionally hostile towards humans. I actually enjoyed the RP: it lead to PvP of course, but I appreciated that there were still players bold enough to be aggressive. I want to see where it leads.

[Flower Power]

I will say that the number of people I've found casually hanging out with gnolls and kobolds on the surface has increased substantially since the last time I was around on the server actively. It's now not entirely uncommon to be sneered at for taking a de facto hostile stance towards monstrous races in cities/on the surface and - putting aside the issues Andunor might have with its dynamics (both interpersonal and between its disparate city sections) - that is not great.

There's plenty of reasonable reasons to want a more united and less stabby Andunor: but there ceases to be any reason to not engage in pupper RP when you can reasonably expect people on the Surface will bend over backwards to facilitate it, in addition to depriving Andunor of its internal strife.

[Watchful Glare]

Stuff

Many here have a good point. Such as Ork, and Eden's. I think it is confusing from a roleplay perspective on some aspects, when playing a Drow for instance. The wiki will go to lengths to tell you about how utterly evil these creatures are and the kind of society they live in, and the effects it has on them.

If you want to roleplay a character like the wiki is telling you to, or like the lore points out, you will be evil because that is just how things are culturally speaking. Much in the same way elves have their own lore, and though exceptions exist, their main settlement is decidedly Chaotic Good (Or jokingly lawful evil if you're not an elf). It sets a norm so people can deviate from it.

A lack of this ends up in a situation where something you're told is rare becomes the norm. You play in Maztica as you read of how the natives dislike the Helmites, and all the horrors of the situation. You make a character that has suffered from that and those experience have shaped them, and they dislike Helmites strongly, and Amnians. And then you find out every other Maztican is actually pretty alright with Helmites, they respect one another and have come to live in harmony, and the character is not only mildly bigoted, but extremely bigoted in the eyes of the Arelith setting and other existing players.

At that point I believe the information available should be changed to reflect the shift and that "most Mazticans in Arelith don't feel particularly strongly about Helm or Amnians, they get along just fine". Otherwise there is going to be some dissonance where you don't feel things are as they're supposed to be, according to the information available and what you read.

Stuff

I think the Staff should decide what kind of place they want Andunor to be. Not as in the place itself, but the player-creatures that effectively breathe life into it. You can't have a place with wikis describing the races as monsters and their evil societies, and then acknowledging a place composed of these people, ruled by two evil worshipping Houses made of said abeformentioned (completely unhinged, in case of one) flesh-warped monstrosities and evil races, is a Neutral Nice place in practice (not in theory), where every once in a while the "it's because it's an evil place" is solely used to justify the occasional smackdown and that's where it ends.

This without hyperbolizing (which is a hard thing to do in threads- As people take whatever you have said and push it to the nth degree and write about that instead).

I think, as players, people tend to slide towards the Neutral Nice end of the spectrum because that's what they are in real life. It's comfy. Being Neutral Nice is also the optimal play, from a character perspective, because you get along with everyone and you get help from everyone and everyone is your friend. It's safe. Even alluding to the horrible things your character does off-screen might be met with disapproval, since it's evil, and therefore wrong and not morally justifiable. It's just plain bad/evil.

Nothing wrong with these type of characters, either. But things get rather muddy when it's the monsters who are Neutral Nice in general. You're not afraid of being caught in the shady city of evil as an interloper because at worst, what's going to happen to you is someone sitting you down, telling you it's all going to be alright and how they're not like the others (except they are), giving you a hug and offering you a lense.

All up until recently I've never noticed myself that being neutral was allowed and required no award or application.

That should either be changed, or the monster races updated to reflect the living reality of the city.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I will say that the number of people I've found casually hanging out with gnolls and kobolds on the surface has increased substantially since the last time I was around on the server actively. It's now not entirely uncommon to be sneered at for taking a de facto hostile stance towards monstrous races in cities/on the surface and - putting aside the issues Andunor might have with its dynamics (both interpersonal and between its disparate city sections) - that is not great.

There's plenty of reasonable reasons to want a more united and less stabby Andunor: but there ceases to be any reason to not engage in pupper RP when you can reasonably expect people on the Surface will bend over backwards to facilitate it, in addition to depriving Andunor of its internal strife.

It's always been this way for as long as I've played here. It's definitely not gotten worse, if anything it's gotten better. When I started there were surface orogs and a lot of monsters chilling in Sibayad that people would socialize with, and there were a LOT of people who would go out of their way to defend them and everyone who socialized with them.

The reality is there's only a handful of players that care and who will hold it against people. And even then, those people are deep into cloak and dagger RP and have underdark contacts themself. So if those players aren't trying to maintain setting integrity, it won't happen.

And there's a secondary problem with this. It quickly turns into "EVERYONE WHO IS EVIL OR MAKES FRIENDS WITH EVIL GOES TO THE UNDERDARK!", which is equally not fun. I like Guldorand because I like the nuance of having open evil around. It gives people breathing space to say "Yeah, I'm not a good person" rather than having to justify everything they do so they can still RP on the surface.

Part of me wonders if people befriending monsters for casual tea time RP is an inherent flaw in server design, and any attempts to try and "fix" it are going to be doomed. Because players ultimately are going to find work arounds for it. I don't think anything short of deleting Andunor and monstrous races will fix it, because the problem are surfacers (I AM NOT SAYING THIS SHOULD HAPPEN, just that this is the only thing that could fix the perceived problem of setting integrity). And yet Andunor keeps getting beaten with a hammer for it, that they maintain setting integrity on their end.

The issue of surfacer setting integrity is harder to handle. There's endless reasons why surfacers might be in both worlds. Maybe they want to smuggle, maybe they're spies, maybe they want to betray everyone and see the world burn. I've had a character who's been in this position before, and I wouldn't want to deny other people being able to tell a story. And I'm not a fan of how black and white surfacers treat things either. I really do not like watching people get chased off the surface. I've watched some people go after some characters rabidly for no reason other than they OOCly hate them, and it's left a really bad taste in my mouth for players trying to wipe "evil" off the surface.

All in all, I'd rather see people go and have tea time with monsters than try to stop it. Because stopping it leads down a road that ends with the only actual conflict happening is surface vs underdark. Because everyone on the surface is busy trying to boot everyone "evil" into the underdark.

[Ork]

There really is a fine line. We can't have underdarkers attacking someone that is disguised because "I've never seen you before" (multiple rule infractions aside) and it isn't healthy for the peacekeepers paint the picture that everyone that comes down to do business in Andunor is free from harm.

I do miss the simpler days of early Andunor to be honest. We had factions that cared about their stake in the city and that led to conflict. We had drow that wanted to enslave human outcasts and we had outcasts that would pummel anyone that "talked shit" about humans. It was a weird sort of okay.

[xanrael]

From my own limited perspective I think it's easier to be a conflicting faction when you have other spots to operate and recruit from. Andunor itself shares many of the same facilities regardless of district within the Hub so you're going to end up seeing the same people every day, especially in the sub-epics.

For example on the surface Crow's Nest and Sib. have player/NPC shops, bounty offices (Sib), and writ givers. I've based surface evil characters around there over the years and recruited and been recruited into factions while in and around there. This can be done without reigniting conflicts I may have had with people who live in Cordor for example. This has given a "cooling off" period to either keep conflicts reasonably short or for longer running conflicts to remain civil in my limited personal experience.

There are already a couple of UD areas (ex: Trading Post) that are just missing a few amenities to serve as much the same as the Crow's Nest. This would give a spot for an Underdark faction that conflicts with the majority of Andunor to retreat to and operate from with a smaller recruitment pool of fresh blood without needing to have a war with battles every 24 hours till the bitter end or roll.

I'm not saying adding such would be a magical fix, but I think it would maybe push some factions on the fence to be more interested in engaging in some conflicts within the UD without feeling it has to lead to the them or the other side rolling their characters.

[Amateur Hour]

I will say that the number of people I've found casually hanging out with gnolls and kobolds on the surface has increased substantially since the last time I was around on the server actively. It's now not entirely uncommon to be sneered at for taking a de facto hostile stance towards monstrous races in cities/on the surface and - putting aside the issues Andunor might have with its dynamics (both interpersonal and between its disparate city sections) - that is not great.

There's plenty of reasonable reasons to want a more united and less stabby Andunor: but there ceases to be any reason to not engage in pupper RP when you can reasonably expect people on the Surface will bend over backwards to facilitate it, in addition to depriving Andunor of its internal strife.

It's always been this way for as long as I've played here. It's definitely not gotten worse, if anything it's gotten better. When I started there were surface orogs and a lot of monsters chilling in Sibayad that people would socialize with, and there were a LOT of people who would go out of their way to defend them and everyone who socialized with them.

The reality is there's only a handful of players that care and who will hold it against people. And even then, those people are deep into cloak and dagger RP and have underdark contacts themself. So if those players aren't trying to maintain setting integrity, it won't happen.

And there's a secondary problem with this. It quickly turns into "EVERYONE WHO IS EVIL OR MAKES FRIENDS WITH EVIL GOES TO THE UNDERDARK!", which is equally not fun. I like Guldorand because I like the nuance of having open evil around. It gives people breathing space to say "Yeah, I'm not a good person" rather than having to justify everything they do so they can still RP on the surface.

Part of me wonders if people befriending monsters for casual tea time RP is an inherent flaw in server design, and any attempts to try and "fix" it are going to be doomed. Because players ultimately are going to find work arounds for it. I don't think anything short of deleting Andunor and monstrous races will fix it, because the problem are surfacers (I AM NOT SAYING THIS SHOULD HAPPEN, just that this is the only thing that could fix the perceived problem of setting integrity). And yet Andunor keeps getting beaten with a hammer for it, that they maintain setting integrity on their end.

The issue of surfacer setting integrity is harder to handle. There's endless reasons why surfacers might be in both worlds. Maybe they want to smuggle, maybe they're spies, maybe they want to betray everyone and see the world burn. I've had a character who's been in this position before, and I wouldn't want to deny other people being able to tell a story. And I'm not a fan of how black and white surfacers treat things either. I really do not like watching people get chased off the surface. I've watched some people go after some characters rabidly for no reason other than they OOCly hate them, and it's left a really bad taste in my mouth for players trying to wipe "evil" off the surface.

All in all, I'd rather see people go and have tea time with monsters than try to stop it. Because stopping it leads down a road that ends with the only actual conflict happening is surface vs underdark. Because everyone on the surface is busy trying to boot everyone "evil" into the underdark.

I feel like a lot of these problems could be addressed with a little more DM setting-preservation guidance along what was given for Andunor.

The admin team has clearly stated within the last year how Andunor should be viewed: a trade city, theoretically open to anyone with enough coin and enough discretion, but not at the expectation of immunity to violent reprisal. But based on some comments in this thread, it seems like people disagree on what the norms are for other areas of the server, and the only way to address it is to get some firm DM guidance rather than arguing among ourselves, even if that firm DM guidance is "it's however character sentiments happen to play out", i.e. how we as players want it to be.

Even if you have a character who doesn't abide by the norms, there's a difference between RPing a position where the character knows they're advocating outside the norms versus RPing that position as if it were a norm. For example, regardless of whether it's "acceptable" to have a character who splits their time between the Underdark and the surface, you could have a character do that, and do it well--but if it's considered abnormal/deviant/suspicious, they'd use disguises, stealth and wards, etc. versus walking around bare-faced like they have a right to be there. I think most characters who come down hard on other characters for various norm-breaks are doing so because the players feel it's in the name of setting integrity--something we're supposed to be largely abiding by--rather than just a desire to quash fun wherever they see it.

[Zavandar]

I think one of the biggest issues is that there isn't much incentive to not cooperate.

[garrbear758]

I think one of the biggest issues is that there isn't much incentive to not cooperate.

This. The settlement system itself rewards cooperation and that carries down to factions

[xf1313]

Maybe another settlement in UD? Or a couple more, make them monsters only. A drow city, a Kobold town etc. That would give people some freedom to be more racist (in game). Currently in Andunor, one must corporate to survive.

Sometimes it is not the characters are being nice, even evil guys know what they must do to survive

[I Don~t Feel Like Dancing]

A neutral monster doesn't necessarily seem like a great concern to me. They, if played true to neutrality, probably don't want any trouble. An inclination toward selflessness or an urge to help protect the surface from the threats of the UD would be hallmarks of a good aligned monster and wouldn't belong in this category. A neutral monster shouldn't need to collaborate with the surface much, if at all. A neutral monster would be keenly aware that most surfacers would want them dead, and would more than likely strive to avoid the surface as much as possible similarly to how many neutral characters on the surface would avoid the UD for fear of being enslaved or ritually sacrificed.

It's been written in one of the UD lore books on drow (there are too many, I'm sorry for people who demand a source) that a significant portion (I believe something around a third) of the drow population is just neutral and "going with the flow" of what the Lolthites demand because they don't want to be killed/sacrificed/turned into driders. These are targets for conversion by Eilistraeeans, who hold the persistent hope of redeeming their lost kin. This is an example for just one race, but it notes the significance in lore of some alignment divergence among the drow as part of their culture - if almost everyone is irredeemably evil outright, the Eilistraeean proselytizing is not actually a very big threat/concern to the Lolthites and there's little motivation to actively seek out and hunt them.

Actually good aligned monsters are another kettle of fish, and presently it's hard to say they feel worth playing. The UD is at times comically over the top evil, and it makes attempting to play a good aligned character there a surreal and unsatisfying experience. Good aligned monsters would, in an ideal environment, largely remain in the UD to avoid endangering their surfacer allies with their presence (save for brief meetups for the sake of things such as passing off news of UD raid plans or similar). Andunor doesn't accommodate good/evil conflict within UD races well, as there isn't much alternative in places to go as an UD'er once you've been identified as a "good guy" by the population at large.

[dominantdrowess]

One of Andunor's greatest sins and a theme constantly pushed out by our players is a "united" Andunor. You can't escape the motif for even a second and you're immediately propositioned by characters to join their faction which all are working towards a "strong Andunor" - whatever that means.

This theme isn't new, but it certain has reached its apex with players collectively punitizing characters that aren't interested in a "united Andunor".

I don't know a solution, but it is very tiring to play in Andunor. A good portion of this issue is the playerbase's rationalization that if they start a fight with someone, they're going to be fighting that same someone for as long as either continue playing. And, they're more likely to encounter that adversary routinely because there's really no where else for them to go.

This. It's taking what everyone knows to the logical extreme.

If you start a fight-- or someone starts one with someone you know, and you get roped into it ... and someone says: "You employed this person and they attacked me." ... they put entire swaths of people on the hook for it. Such characters frequently (and often quietly behind their back) get black-listed.

The problem is: There is nowhere to go. Even for humans.

Sibayad, Sencliff, and Crow's Nest for some reason won't sell to Outcasts. Unless you own the abyssal citadel or a shadow plane house.. or there's something available in Dis I am unaware of... that's about it. Players can, and will turbo-gank outcasts just for doing -dungeons- on the surface.

This is conflict-- but it isn't a conflict of ideology or interests.. it turns into Underdark vs. Surface simply by that. Even if it's broken down into smaller team fights rather than massive wars? It's still the same song and dance. It's too easy. And there's no "evil" surface city... and Sibayad stopped being an ambiguous black-market a long time ago.

United Andunor is the logical conclusion because anything else becomes: "Win or die." so often. Nobody ever lets things go -except- the people trying to unite things who are willing to look the other way because the "majority" does on something. It isn't actual law or balance.. it's.. very corrupt, but it's the source of that problem.

Tipping it on it's head won't fix it-- that's just the turbo-gank civil war because we're all trapped on top of each other. Without other places to go? This is not an easily fixed problem. Lurking in 'No PvP Zones' like Dis or Shadowvar simply are not a solution to allowing multiple factions that because of history cannot co-exist within 10 feet of each other for (in my opinion) legitimate RP reasons.

Andunor's got growing pains because the population's gotten bigger, even if the city itself is physically the same size. Adding the 3rd district helped-- but it's not a solution to the problem of The Hub existing. Players in defiance of the social agreement of Andunor need other places to go and The Ogre's Fist or Saltspar is NOT really enough. It needs the protection of guards not loyal to Andunor.

I honestly think a functional Underdark Castle, with it's own settlement system somewhere with the Under-sea might be in order similar to Guldorond vs. Cordor ... so someone doesn't -have- to answer to Andunor if they don't want to. Other places with goblin runners, or wisp-keepers.. so they can function distinctly from Andunor as a place to live. Shadowvar's good-- but it has no quarters in it.

The Underdark needs more settlements (with a banishment system and lockable doors) not more vaguely NPC-protected zones that ignore player RP until people complain to DMs.

If not a castle, maybe put Deepgate, and other neutral guild-halls on the player auction system for Andunor. Increase the tools of divisiveness and you will get more conflict. Otherwise? People will all line up behind the easiest possible path. Spread people out so they can't control everything just by locking down the hub with an anger squad.

The more players you force to use the hub, the easier Andunor is to strangle, and the less likely you will find conflict because people don't want THE SAME CONFLICT over and over and over. They get tired of repeating it. So they play nice. Arelith as a server has gotten bigger.

Underdark needs a few more toys to stay attractive and to stir the pot.

Also? Underdark doesn't really get the new player throughput a lot of places have. This is in part because it's harder to get things. (Surfacers have easier access to Andunorian goods for obvious reasons, and easier access to Ogre's Gauntlets, Warrior's Will necklace, and Nullification Gems because loot is not evenly distributed across servers.) So I feel it's more die-hard UDers than fresh blood in most cases?

Neutral becomes easier when taking risks comes with no reward and frequently has harsh punishment that people have already played out time, and time again.

What do you actually gain fighting people in the hub? We've all done it. Everyone. But look at the long-term ramifications and revenge politics, assassination contracts, etc. Things there's no real defense against. There's very little that fighting (or even mere infighting) can solve.

I think one of the biggest issues is that there isn't much incentive to not cooperate.

This is the king of comments. We gain nothing by betraying or killing each other. Punishing them doesn't reward us. All you're doing is putting a big 'gank me at the bank' sign on your head. Nobody cares about the vendors in the hub refusing service for murder... all people care about in the hub is the portal in relation to their quarter: Other portals exist; but they aren't home or near player shops that sell potions.

This is why so many fights in the hub are "The Mob" vs. 1 or 2 annoying people. It's the only "safe" combat... because the belief is that the DM's aren't going to shop-block 8 people and 2 cooperating settlement leaders for spitting on the decapitated corpse of a pick-pocket or mouthy slave if the hub-crowd approves of it. So there's this safety in numbers and group-think stuff that happens inherently with DM enforcement... which is why I prefer the settlement system and PLAYER enforcement that Cordor/Myon has but Andunor can't really give us because of Claddeth/Freth being uncaring gods.

When enforcement and authority presence is inconsistent... people just do what the majority does.

[magistrasa]

Things are the way they are because this is the natural and logical course players will take on both an IC and OOC level. If any long-term change is desired - and I sincerely hope it is desired - I can think of a few solutions that can be implemented on multiple levels, with varying degrees of effort. There's no singular "magic bullet" that will "fix" the situation, which goes without saying since I'm sure some will argue that nothing needs to be fixed and everything is fine; but even if you don't think there's anything wrong with the UD as it currently stands, I do think it's worth considering how things could be improved.

Admins - Reevaluate the Surface/UD Dynamic
"The Underdark needs the Surface, but the Surface does not need the Underdark." As I mentioned in a previous post, the asymmetrical relationship between the Surface and UD creates a certain isolation and stagnancy down below. The underdark is dependent on the surface for fuel and motivation. It's no coincidence that many of the most influential and significant figures in the underdark are humans, because they are able to freely cross the boundary between worlds and meaningfully affect both without limitations imposed by their racial tag. Monsters are constantly grasping for information on the hated surfacers; their weaknesses, their leaders, their settlements, anything and everything that they might use to actually accomplish what their designated role is. The underdark's primary purpose is to antagonize the surface. Meanwhile, the surface could not seem to care less. The natural limitations imposed upon UD interaction means you simply don't encounter anything having to do with the underdark unless you're going out of your way for it. I've been on the surface for somewhere around two years now and I have not once encountered anyone based out of the UD - nor have I even really participated in any storylines involving it. And I'm the sort of person who goes out of my way for it, too! You could delete the underdark and a good chunk of the server wouldn't even notice. Which seems like a missed opportunity, if you ask me. Make the surface dependent in some way upon the underdark, or at the very least create the opportunity for more regular encounters, and you'll start to see more meaningful interactions between the two sides. This could mean anything from UD-exclusive resources, to expanded settlement trading, to some odd mechanical phenomena that results in some manner of mutual consequence if it goes ignored...
- Specific ideas come to mind here. What if the Deep Wells of Guldorand opened up into a new cavern of the Underdark, and Andunor suddenly had a vested interest in the fortress city? What if Andunor had a representative on the Founder's Council, and created some neutral ground in the Deep Wells for surfacers and underdarkers to discuss trade and negotiate conflict? Or - and I find this much more interesting - consider the Heartwood Grove. At several points of its history, the subject of diplomacy with the Zurkhwood Grove has been a point of extreme contention. Realistically speaking, both groves would be invested in the welfare of the other, because the ecosystems they exist within would naturally have some interplay. But since that reality isn't represented in game, the Zurkhwood is treated like a hostile or heretical force to be shunned and opposed without second thought. I've always felt like the relationship between the Heartwood and Zurkhwood was a prime candidate for administrative action to create a space for purpose-driven conflict and collaboration between surface and UD forces. And I think that "purpose-driven" term is key when it comes to a good neutral territory here. I'll be the first to agree that we don't need more casual hangout venues, and I'm not in the market for a kobold/halfling cuddle puddle pillow fort. I just think that the server narrative would be improved by the creation of a space where it is socially acceptable and even expected for dialogue between the two worlds to take place. Shadovar and Dis are not accomplishing the same thing.

Devs - Create a New Settlement
I think there's a lot of very good and thoughtful posts here already that go into the merits of a new settlement in the Underdark. Of course, Irongron has commented many times in the past about his reluctance to follow through on the idea, remembering "ye olden times" all too well. But I do believe strongly that the desire for a more traditional, antagonistic, conflict-driven Underdark experience is there, and the server has the numbers to support it. Just imagine! It could be a duergar fortress, which would naturally predispose it towards trade and competition while also maintaining the justification for a cautious reluctance towards incurring the wrath of surface-dwellers (and also discourage the potential resurgence of your traditional bow-or-die toxic lolthite). As an added bonus, you'd probably see more Duergar in the world, which would be absolutely delightful.

DMs - Apply Subtle Influence
I don't know why DM intervention always has to be staged as some Big Thing, but I think if you're trying to direct the player base into certain behaviors, you'd see better results with many gradual nudges, over one big push. Grand sweeping announcements from Peacekeepers styled as a "this is the way things are and if you don't like it too bad" could be phased out in favor of targeted conversation and NPC banter to express the background opinions that exist beyond the players' notice. And this could be used to encourage conflict just as well as discourage conflict. Use NPC dialogue to play on racial tensions and inspire player-led witch hunts for some unknown local threat. If things really are too mellow and "neutral" in the Underdark, you can always give people some small and character-building thing to be dastardly over.

Players - Exercise Self-Awareness
Like DominantDrowess and others already touched on, conflict invariably leads to lasting animosity and a fracturing of the community, with lines drawn over who picked what side and who has what friends. That is what makes sense in such a hostile and cutthroat environment, where you need to scrape and claw and fight to survive. Thing is, it doesn't make sense in the meta-narrative, where you want to create the most fun and engaging story possible. Taking a step back and inderstanding the rippling effect your IC actions have on the story we all share is a necessary component to collaborative storytelling. It's easy to slip into a tunnel vision perspective where you look only at what you and your character want from a given situation, but at the very least attempting to understand the world around you and all its varied conflicting motivations will go a long way towards working alongside your fellow player to craft a compelling narrative. Obviously that advice extends beyond just the Underdark, but I'd say Andunor is the truest test of one's ability to work with their antagonists. There's a reason why all the server's best storytellers keep finding their way back down.

[Aradin]

I think one of the biggest issues is that there isn't much incentive to not cooperate.

Didn't think it was possible to sum up my feelings about Underdark interaction/conflict in a single sentence, but here we are.

[Edens_Fall]

It seems like it would be easy enough to convert the upper trade post, shipyard, or saltspar into a counter Andunor.

[Ork]

My honest opinion is that each district deserves a "hub" and commerce is pushed into the districts instead of the centralized location of the Hub. Keep the shops, but remove the portal.

[Skibbles]

This thread seems to have derailed into a better topic than I started it with. Trigger warning: vague outcast 'rant' but also trying to be funny. Probably to be received poorly, but I am being facetious for much of this.

Magistrasa is really nailing it on a lot of this insight I think, and particulary with how influential figures that drive huge exciting narratives across the entire island (above and below simultaneously that is) are very often humans, or have humans in their near-to-the-top employ. Ex-surfacers to be more exact, because they bring all their ongoing drama (the good kind) down with them and they're actually infamous and the subject of actual roleplay.

Andunor used to be able to contribute to the island narrative by sending out its own humans that drummed up shenigans, built connection, wove intrigues, and so on. Now, surface-UD interaction is gated behind bluff of 100+ just for the luxury of having a god-save speedrun attempt at a plot hook before the spot bots come along to ensure nobody gets a glance at the magenta-level classified public news board on which all of civilization rests its very survival. This is not limited to any one locale.

I really miss when outcasts could be sketchy gray area merchants or dark liasons that hid in plain sight and raised questions and intrigue just by openly being themselves. These characters used to be able to tie the two worlds together without a monstrous skill tax and blind luck, or going bench-afk in the hub for a week to learn undercommon because productive underhuman RP both starts at 30 and also by avoiding being slapped with a court mandated protection order against the entire world.

More than anything else I wish we could just try, for like six months, to be rid of this awful tag and just let it have its day again. Give it a chance. What is honestly the worst thing that can happen that isn't basically happening already? Go-betweens almost exclusively come from the surface and we're so desperate for it we'll give a full or half-blooded elf a pass just to hear something other than district election propaganda, love triangle gossip, or WTB Profaned Decapitator posts.

Andunor is a trade city, and it's still awesome, but who is it actually trading with? The only thing I can think of is Graklstugh and that isn't even in the module. Writ runners buying potions? Surfacers looking for a bar or two of adamantine? What happens if the kobolds have a bad batch of hatchlings and the tax income from scale scrubbers and basic adventure supplies snoutdives? Surely the Hubmaster has a few prospects just in case of another kobold dry season.

Open the lines of communication. Get some sketchball NPC from Andunor into Guldorand or Cordor that pisses everyone off but at least lets people know that maybe it's more than a pit of evil as long as everyone continues to ignore the fact House Claddath just built another monstrosity out of a half a city block of its own people and House Freth had another sulfur-related detonation training exercise deep within their mansion.

The UD has no real way to project homegrown intrigue, or remind anyone they're there, unless it's a wandering raid likely to begin and end in pvp of some kind. Presumably this genuinly entertains very few for long, and I doubt many of us need much imagination to know why.

[magistrasa]

This post is from another thread but I just think it's too good and still very relevant to the topic of Andunor's "neutrality" - sorry Arigard but you're in the conversation now.

I think the issue with the Underdark and the Surface relations has always been a feeling of characters being hamstrung into being helplessly blindsided time and time again to respect the idea of a "trade city", regardless of the lore of their races etc & ongoing events within the world itself.

Now, I think as players we all understand what a trade city is supposed to mean. Gold is valued above all and the only thing that comes in the way of that is when said trade is being threatened. An issue i find is that we only ever hear about justifications for trade for not stopping characters from engaging, rather than consequences for characters and races that actively choose to act in ways that undermine the city. The way Andunor as a trade city is portrayed is as being apolitical - in that it only cares about gold. But the issue is that trade is deeply entwined with politics by definition, even if that politics is only its policing of its own self interest. Who buys, who sells, who gets discounts, who gets barred from trading. A trade hub that is solely about selling, with zero tactics about who/why and how they engage is simply unrealistic and incredibly claustrophobic.

For example:

- Active surface plots that attack/plot/plan and convene against Andunorian citizens who may run shops, frequently buy and sell goods below/ or run institutions in the city, is clearly an attack on trade within, I would say. But that is something I never hear being mentioned either OOC, or in RP often, if at all.

So let's just say that common sense dictates it is an attack on trade - The issue with Elves comes not just from the lore, but because there have been phases of time where Elves in particular are a heavy antagonistic presence to the city. There have been plenty of periods where bands of Elves have been picking off Andunorians, hunting them, or outright waging war against them and for whatever reason their ability to organise (hats off by the way) has created a much more vocal distrust for Elves in general in my experience playing in the UD. So, regardless of Andunor being a "trade hub" - it becomes difficult to justify as a resident not viewing all surface Elves instantly on the lesser scale as a potential spy/informant/infiltrator and on the grander scale as potentially aids to the various iterations over the years of the groups that have clashed time and time again & sometimes even walked right into the hub and targeted Andunorians.

Now, is there a problem with this in RP? No, not at all. I think conflict is necessary to make things interesting. The problem it causes to Andunorians is trying to play a character that is faced with a threat that is:

1. Already a racially distrusted group based on the lore by many Monstrous races

&

2. An Arelithian (game lore) mistrusted race that is frequently being seen to actually hinder trade in the city - But the city does not seem to overly care about it on a setting level (Keep the gold coming!) - yet it cares about losing gold - except for when it's own citizens and traders are targeted, because keeping the flood gates open is more important that closing them selectively to protect it's foundation.

-Are Andunorian traders/regulars who run the actual place/set up shops/run events and bring plenty of trade cycle by cycle less important than some surfacers who visit and -might- buy something?

-Gold is important, but traders are not stupid. They do not buy and sell to their enemies to make them stronger, simply for the sake of gold. The politics of trade is something that I think often gets overlooked when it comes to Andunor.

-I've literally seen characters murder Andunorians on the surface and then waltz into Andunor the next day, looking for things to buy to facilitate them going out and murdering more Andunorians under the guise of "Trade City - I got my rights". Rpwise, your trade is not going to do so well, if all your traders are being murdered by their own customers - And I know this is a real extreme, but at a certain level, players have never really been totally sure what it actually means for how they are supposed to conduct their characters and what counts as a valid self protection mechanism.

The above is then made even more difficult by the contrast in which Underdark races have in cities above, by which all could be considered "trade hubs". Any city with a port, is going to be relying considerably on trade. The majority of cities that exist within Arelith are likely considered massive trade hubs, so I think one of the underlying issues that causes a disconnect with players on this idea, is why Andunor is so special that it often is expected to shoot itself in the foot for gold, sell openly to its enemies without a care in the world and constantly coerce its inhabitants to make the same mistakes over and over again to enforce a semi OOC driven concept that it is a trade hub?

Honestly, I think because of the above, the idea that Andunor is a "Trade Hub" simply does not work, mainly because OOC it leaves too little room for Andunorian players to work with & there really needs to be much clearer guidance on what that actually means for the rules of the city and conduct. Rebranding Andunor to a "Black Market" would be something that would be much more manageable and would make sense within the way the game is being played. It's a dangerous place you can go to, to find things you might desire that may be difficult to find elsewhere. But it should be dangerous, it shouldn't be somewhere that you get a free pass because today you decided to take a break from your monster hunting to buy a shiny dagger that tomorrow you might use to gut the very monster you bought it from.

Should Elves be allowed in if they can prove themselves? Yes, for sure - It should take a lot of work and trust, but that's already been happening in Andunor ever since I've been playing there at least (Last 3 year or so - Duvain/Sarek etc). Ultimately the issue with the "trade hub" motif is that it's almost expected that if you go there, regardless of who you are, or how little effort you've put into the preamble, all you need to do is go "But I'm here to trade and the Peacekeepers wouldn't like it if you did anything to me!" and you have a get out of jail free card every time - And the issue with that is - There's ultimately no safety in the UD for Andunorians and there's no other home settlement in Arelith that you can play that same card.

God what a good post.

[Edens_Fall]

This

Have I ever told you how much I love your funny, yet informative posting style? No?

Well, consider yourself informed.

[neverwinternightly]

outcast tag things

I was in Andunor for the better part of a year and a half and managed to be a go-between for the most of it. Without having 100+ bluff at that! And the main reason this worked? I was playing a human (in appearance) who started surface who never took the outcast tag.

I considered taking the tag for a long time. My character certainly deserved it. But why should I? As far as I could tell over all that time, the UPSIDE is that you can use the Hub portal (and a few others that don't really matter a ton) and that you can vote in districts. Maybe a few extra NPCs you can talk to that are hardly relevant.

The DOWNSIDE? You drop that mentioned gate down on your foot. Suddenly even the newest player on surface knows you're an awful criminal. You cripple your ability to have any kind of interesting rp between Andunor and the surface so severely unless you have insanely high bluff.

I don't know if it needs to be removed to allow for a more fluid environment or changed in some way, and this thread isn't about that, so I'll avoid further ranting on the topic. Just like one and a half of my two cents about a point here that resonates with my own thoughts!

[Itikar]

"The Underdark needs the Surface, but the Surface does not need the Underdark."

I think that this is one of the greatest post I read and at the same time one with which I cannot really agree. Not because of any personal opinion but simply because of experience. When I dived into Andunor drow Lolthite roleplay and inter-drow faith conflict was pretty strong and nuanced. Hence to me the surface represented, and still represents in general, at most an optional outlet and factor in roleplay, and not necessarily one that I saw perceived as a positive one. Sibayad used to be a pretty exception to that, but it is gone now, while I think Sencliff is the single place on the surface whose players managed to break through the reluctance of my drow characters to get involved with the matters of the "cursed lands above". I won't deny that I got some fun from the surface, but the reason why I made a drow character was not to have fun surface interactions, it was to have nuanced Underdark interactions, both with my race and the other communities of the Underdark, Underdark humans very much included.

This is not to say that Underdark-Surface interactions cannot be improved or that they should not be improved in the way you suggest. I find the proposals you make very sound and interesting, but I want also to stress that there are also players in Andunor who are more interested in Underdark to Underdark interactions, and there is even a group of them who even resents interaction with the surface. Alas, it is hard to mediate between all these different attitudes, but I am still confident there is a way to make the roleplay of most more satisfying.

More than anything else I wish we could just try, for like six months, to be rid of this awful tag and just let it have its day again. Give it a chance. What is honestly the worst thing that can happen that isn't basically happening already? Go-betweens almost exclusively come from the surface and we're so desperate for it we'll give a full or half-blooded elf a pass just to hear something other than district election propaganda, love triangle gossip, or WTB Profaned Decapitator posts.

One of the reasons I am so familiar with some aspects of Skullport as a setting is that before playing Arelith I played on a D&d based game which had Skullport, Menzoberranzan, Waterdeep and many other Forgotten Realms locations completely visitable in game, and often reproduced with great adherence to sourcebooks.

Specifically I recall how Skullport played a very interesting dynamic in regard to Underdark and surface communities. Essentially, people from the Underdark went there to do backroom deals and trade with the surface, and vice versa surfacers went to Skullport to do the same. Going to Skullport, staying in Skullport or even being from Skullport was a delicate matter, and depending on the character it could cause them to become the unofficial equivalent of an Arelith outcast in the community. An Oghman going there for learning some spells was of course not going to have a hard time, but somebody belonging to a goodly faith or an elf devoted to the Seldarine would have had to provide some very sound and reasonable explanations for what they were doing down there, lest they would face very severe consequences. Even being a native from Skullport, as it was a possible starting town there, was something that was akin to a very uncomfortable secret for the affected character and something to reveal only to the most trusted allies.

For what concerns Arelith I believe there should be some merit in an approach that has some of the characteristics explained above. First and foremost because it is more sensible and nuanced, and attinent to the lore, as the Skullport sourcebook describes the denizens of Skullport in such terms. Secondly because it replaces those which are frankly OOC meta considerations into more healthy IC dynamics. In other words you are not Outcast because you have a tag near your name, despite you being an absolute nobody that nobody cares about, but you are Outcast because you are /known/ to regularly accompany yourself and live with those that most of the surface society considers monsters. And you pay the price for it.

This should also probably be accomodated with some additional changes, such as removing the Hub portal, enhancing districts and some other places with services that allow them to become more reliable as roleplay hubs, as some already mentioned in the previous posts.

In truth anything is improvable concerning Surface-Underdark relations, because they are managed in a way which is essentially equivalent to World of Warcraft, where those who are at the opposite sides of the divide cannot even walk on the other side, and where the interaction is for the most part sterile mechanical fighting. Then of course we will have again people complaining about "cuddly" monster rp, but I believe at this point it is abundantly clear it is impossible to make everybody happy.

[magistrasa]

When I dived into Andunor drow Lolthite roleplay and inter-drow faith conflict was pretty strong and nuanced. Hence to me the surface represented, and still represents in general, at most an optional outlet and factor in roleplay, and not necessarily one that I saw perceived as a positive one. Sibayad used to be a pretty exception to that, but it is gone now, while I think Sencliff is the single place on the surface whose players managed to break through the reluctance of my drow characters to get involved with the matters of the "cursed lands above". I won't deny that I got some fun from the surface, but the reason why I made a drow character was not to have fun surface interactions, it was to have nuanced Underdark interactions, both with my race and the other communities of the Underdark, Underdark humans very much included.

I totally agree with this sentiment, and hoped I framed my post in such a way that did not imply the need for every UD character to have some kind of surface-related objective in their roleplay - although, reading back, I could have done a better job at expressing this. So let me try to better establish the line of thought.

Andunor, along with every other Underdark society, would not exist in its current state without the Surface. Drow as a race are defined and motivated by their history and hatred for the surface elves. Outcasts must always reckon with the circumstances that led to their seeking refuge in the Underdark. Monstrous races are best known for their reaving and slaving, which they could not do if there were no lands to pillage or enslave. Abyssalists and Infernalists that make their home in the dark seek to shape the world in their fiendish image, and would not be able to pursue such aims if there were no world to be shaped. The narrative function that motivated the Underdark's conceptual creation was to be "the terror that lurks in the deepest dark," and is almost always depicted in relation to the Surface that must always fear and defend against it. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that "Bad" can arguably only exist with a "Good" to compare it to.

Thus, everything in the Underdark invariably winds up relating back to the surface in some way or another. Yes, you can have nuanced and interesting roleplay storylines that have nothing to do with the Surface. But the characters engaged in those storylines pretty much only exist because of the motivation the Surface provides, either directly or indirectly. Many of those Drow you had so much fun interacting with were probably exploring some surface-related schemes on the side, or even considered them primary to their character. Many conflicts are, on their face, sparked by some interaction with the surface. And the surface simply does not exist in the same state. That's the contrast I'm trying to draw.

That's all why I said the underdark's "primary purpose" is to antagonize the surface - I meant that in a more "in-character, narrative function" sense, where pretty much all intelligent life that resides there seems to want to get up top and cause some mayhem because the lore these races are founded on was written up because the heroes need a bad guy. But I think, speaking towards the meta-narrative of our little roleplay server, it's main reason for existing on Arelith is to create a space where a more honest exploration of selfish, destructive, nihilistic philosophy can be played out and explored in deep and meaningful ways. Or at least, that's my main reason for playing in the Underdark, because it happens to accomplish this so well.

Then again, maybe I'm just too rigid in my way of conceptualizing these things.

[Amateur Hour]

good stuff

good stuff

I think some of the problem can be summed up as follows:

When the Forgotten Realms was first designed way back when, the assumption was that the players would be playing what on Arelith are "standard surfacers". Efforts went in to make those cultures make sense independently. Arelith's Underdark is filled with beings that were initially designed to be the NPC fodder that the party of heroes is supposed to hack and slash their way through. They didn't have to make sense. They just had to pop up out of dungeon floors to be an obstacle.

Future Forgotten Realms development has fleshed out these groups now so they are playable, but the legacy of their original intention has created this imbalance that I don't think can ever be truly fixed without complete lore overhauls, which I highly doubt will happen on Arelith.

[Kalthariam]

One of Andunor's greatest sins and a theme constantly pushed out by our players is a "united" Andunor. You can't escape the motif for even a second and you're immediately propositioned by characters to join their faction which all are working towards a "strong Andunor" - whatever that means.

This theme isn't new, but it certain has reached its apex with players collectively punitizing characters that aren't interested in a "united Andunor".

I don't know a solution, but it is very tiring to play in Andunor. A good portion of this issue is the playerbase's rationalization that if they start a fight with someone, they're going to be fighting that same someone for as long as either continue playing. And, they're more likely to encounter that adversary routinely because there's really no where else for them to go.

I am of the opinion that this sort of mentality is due to the fact that many races have been fully confined to the Underdark as a Setting rule, they -have- to work together more often than not for even the most basic things. To further add to that you have the surface acting as an antagonist to many whom live in the Underdark, sure the Underdark definitely isn't innocent in any means, but there's plenty of instances of surface raiding parties coming down and killing writ workers whom literally have no connection to whatever UD faction they are angry at.

Thus the "United Andunor" is suddenly far more appealing, because it means if you get attacked, someone's going to either help you or avenge you, you have people to lean on in bad times, and it keeps trade (Which is essential to a trade port) Open and flowing heavily leads to everyone being more enriched at least in some way, whether it be through information, trade goods, or raw gold.

Everything in the Underdark is centralized, everyone's constantly running into each other, everyone's constantly reliant on the same merchants and writ paths.

It's not remotely a surprise that the idea of having Andunor be united against the threats of not only the underdark, but the surface too, is a popular one. If you wanted to try to break up this idea that people are behind, you'd have to break up the underdark itself.