Honestly I have a ton to say from my own experiences with Arelith over many years, but I feel that this is the most important of it. Leveling speed and character turnover are big problems, but even bigger is the problem of meaningful conflict resolution.
I borrowed the quoting from another site, but this is an important theme here. That evil isn't just necessary on an OOC level, the setting itself requires it to exist due to the existence of evil deities and other greater powers demanding that occurrence.
written by Ed in his book "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms" on pages 134-136:
Good-minded individuals among the common folk usually tolerate evil clergy and their deeds and practices because they must. The servants of evil are personally strong, vicious or well-connected enough that they are tolerated, avoided or appeased rather than attacked.
Governments, taking a wider view, put up with evil faiths because hostility won't get rid of them and because they can be useful.
If, for example, the church of Malar in Cormyr is permitted to breed monsters or hunt beasts only in specific border areas, the Malarites can by their very presence serve as obstacles to would-be raiders from the Stonelands, Archendale or the Tun. The presence of such a church would also discourage Sembians from conducting smuggling, livestock rustling and suchlike along the Thunder Peaks, and cut down on brigands operating across the borders. Genuine marauding monster populations might also be kept in check by the church of Malar. So, the Crown of Cormyr handles the church of Malar in this way. War Wizards often covertly mind-scry Malarite priests to see what they have observed in the wilderlands and to uncover evidence (if any) on their working with foes of the realm for coin or other inducements.
In Cormyr, Malarite priests most often breed monsters for temple butchery in rituals, to sell trophy heads and other body parts and for the feast tables of the wealthy. The latter two uses are major sources of temple revenue. Malarites also breed monsters for temple guardian roles, deploying them in areas where they can't get out to roam greater Cormyr, confined to temple property.
Malarite monsters are also popular among nobles as quarries for the hunt. Such beasts are released by Malarites in specific locations at reported-to-the-Crown-beforehand times, for nobles to track down and slay. The Malarites must stand watch to down the beasts if they get away, and the Crown of Cormyr holds the Malarites responsible for any monster-caused deaths to persons not of the hunting party. The War Wizards also watch over all such beast releases, and it is a serious crime to perform such a release without informing them well beforehand – a crime proclaimed into law after the third instance of a Malarite priest hired by one noble family “accidentally” unleashing monsters into the estate of a rival noble family.
Violent and evil faiths such as those of Malar and Loviatar get along with governments by worshiping largely behind closed doors and always within agreed-upon limits. A Malarite in Cormyr or any other well-ruled locale wouldn't think of trying to kidnap innocents, citizens or government representatives to be part of a hunt. No evil clergy anywhere in a well-ruled land or city would dare to use drugs, blackmail or other coercion to gain converts or subjects for rituals. A masochist can volunteer to be flogged by a priestess of Loviatar, but neither she nor any lay Loviatan can try to gain any sort of hold over the person to force or strongly influence one's agreeing to be flogged.
Like anyone else who conspires against the Crown, traitor priests are subject Crown justice. Churches that openly defy important laws (criminal, as opposed to civil matters), or that openly work against the Crown by attacking or mistreating soldiers or Crown agents, are harshly dealt with.
Being holy confers no immunity, as opposed faiths will happily speak out against the “miscreant clergy,” and the Crown can always claim to be trying to be the impartial, secular central balance between various faiths, for the good of all. Only the loftiest holy rank or status wins any form of absolution or light treatment from secular authorities for major crimes – such as killing, torture, treason and sedition, kidnapping, slavery, coercion of the unwilling by force or threats, fraud and theft.
As a result, priesthoods tend to work against governments only through means of subtle influence – unless they can become the government (at least locally).
[…] in Cormyr, the best way to get ahead is either by covert cooperation with noble families or ambitious merchants, or by quietly reaching explicit deals with the Crown and then strictly adhering to them. “Deals with the Crown” really means with Vangerdahast from 1306 DR to 1371 DR and thereafter with Alusair until 1384 DR. In other words, very carefully following the often unofficial rules set down by the authorities and in return being allowed to do certain things while the authorities turn a blind eye.
Coming to the aid of Crown agents, sometimes militarily, when a certain summons or alarm is raised is a promise that both the churches of Loviatar and Malar have made to the War Wizards. Priests of Loviatar help maintain law and order – and apprehend certain specific individuals, when asked – in Marsember, Arabel and Suzail, and the church of Malar does the same in rural areas. In return, the Malarites are permitted to hunt certain miscreants, some of the royal deer, specific monsters and specific sorts of beasts – an activity to which they can invite nobles, the wealthy and others they hope to convert if they so desire. The church of Loviatar, on the other hand has earned the right to carry on some of its more enticing rituals for nonmembers in certain clubs and other establishments in hopes of gaining offerings or converts.
No evil church can expect to incite people against the Crown or any law, or publicly practice rituals that scare or harm people or defy the authorities, and continue to be tolerated in the land. The “heavy stuff” goes on behind firmly closed temple doors, and much secrecy and excitement is thereby attached to it.
In public, the clergy of evil deities are models of good behavior. As such, although average citizens respect or fear and avoid said clergy, they will almost always not attack, deride, or dispute with them. Everyone in the Realms believes in all the gods, and so understands and accepts the purpose and major aims of every faith. This doesn't mean everyone necessarily agrees with or supports every religion, but that they tolerate and understand the place in society each faith occupies.
Likewise, this does not mean every devout worshiper in a faith sees eye to eye with every cleric; in deed, many faiths have bitter internal fights, schism and ongoing debates, and many high priests are watched very closely by lay worshipers try to decide which temple to obey the most, and gift with the most, and which to treat with by doing the bare minimum their beliefs require.
Priests who perform willful murder in public or otherwise “charge into unlawful behavior” in a well-governed ream like Cormyr suffer consequences. Depending on the severity of the crime, they'll wind up dead (killed by the Crown or others), delivered to the Crown for secular justice, or cast out of the church to appease the authorities. More often than the general public would be pleased to know, such miscreants are hustled covertly out of Cormyr to postings elsewhere by fellow clergy, who then tell the authorities that “internal punishments as directed by the Divine One have been enacted upon the wayward.” For more minor crimes, wayward clergy might publicly repent, and their church make redress to the Crown and wronged citizens.
There have been incidents when a priest who persists in covert self-serving dealings that give his or her church a bad name is caught by Crown agents or hired adventurers because other members of the church have tipped off the authorities as to when and where to catch the offender. Such tips usually end up in the priest being caught red-handed and therefore deserving of on-the-spot justice, particularly if he or she decides to fight.
Clergy of faiths that work against law and order, such as those of Shar and Talos, thrive in socially chaotic areas like Westgate and, formerly, Sembia, where they can play one employer off against another. However, these priests keep a much lower profile in well-policed lands such as Cormyr – where they tend to operate a service wherein you can “pay and take part in this enticing ritual, and the deity will attempt to make your desire real, over time, in some nonspecific manner.” Most of the time, these clergy prey upon worshipers more than they realy achieve anything. At least this way, they reason, they can maintain a presence in the land and wait for events to make their faith more important or attractive to factions in the realm. Only then would they dare any open defiance of the authorities.
The priests of Talos in Cormyr, for instance, work magic (in their locked temple rooms) only to add strength and destructive force to natural storms that are hammering areas of Cormyr. They never cause such storms or steer the paths storms take, because they know the War Wizards watch for that. However, if a storm should cause harm to a War Wizard, how is that their fault? (They ask this oh so innocently, after helping a storm to collapse a cottage on a wizard's head.)
Priests and priestesses of Shar, Loviatar and Sharess often use amorous wiles to establish personal relationships with persons in authority. Through this angle, they try to sow chaos by suggesting particular deeds, decrees and ideas to their lovers.
Even priests of the most violently evil faiths are seldom foolish enough to draw daggers and seek to carve up soldiers or Crown agents in the streets. A dead foe is just that: dead, and soon to be replaced by another. An influenced foe, on the other hand, is well on the way to becoming an ally, increasing the sway of the deity.
The Forgotten Realms setting literally says that evil forces have to be at least tolerated to coexist because those forces won't take no for an answer.
Now, to the practical examples.
Some evil necromancers start making a fuss near Cordor and the Cordorians don't approve. Rather than a mechanical exile of them (which is just not fun), or kill-bash until they don't want to play any more (also not fun)... what about an approach where an agreement is struck allowing the necromancer's presence provided he agrees to certain terms, like not practicing their necromancy in the city limits and its immediate surroundings, and that they be willing to be called upon in times of need? This provides meaningful RP instead of locking people out of fun in some capacity. And then when the necromancer is called upon, the RP opportunities are vast between the tension involved and the innumerable ways that each party involved can handle the presence of someone that is working on the same side, but also that they are not overly approving of how they're doing so.
Drow House Ela'drow'name is a rising star and is aiming to take down their rival house Oth'drow'alibi. House Ela confronts their rivals with the best made plans and still gets crushed. Rather than killbashing or exiling(see above, not fun), House Oth drafts everyone from House Ela into their ranks, having them do their bidding (in a reasonable and fun manner OOC) in exchange for their lives and livelihood. This, in turn, allows the House Ela loyalists the opportunity to rise in power and try to take control from within. Again, RP possibilities abound.
Nothing works out that cleanly; and as has been mentioned, a little polite OOC communication between parties goes a long, long way. (really the more the better, in my opinion. Everyone's trying to write the same story, so if more authors are on the same page it all works out much smoother)
The point I'm trying to get at here is that allowing our "enemies" or "undesirables" to coexist with us contingent on reasonable conditions that make for meaningful RP situations is a very effective, and most importantly a very fun outcome for most cases. And yes, this means we're accepting the fact that we know they aren't going to play by the rules. That's all supposed to be part of the OOC fun.
Sure, this isn't mechanically enforceable. But enforceable "punitive" mechanics also aren't fun for the majority of players. That's what exile already is.
We're all here to have fun, and as humans we're trained that losing = not fun, and that winning = fun. Thus naturally we're inclined to want to win.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:03 pm
...We have to unpack what exactly "losing" and "winning" means in a conflict scenario. Undeniably, losing sucks. You lose mechanical stuff. Your character is perceived as a "loser." Heck, maybe they're best friend died and your actual enjoyment of the story will be a struggle.
Winning is way, way more fun.
PvP and meaningless death really only creates mechanical consequence around *stuff.* Not story. Good roleplayers will lose gracefully, but losing still sucks.
I think, if you're looking at systems and tools, you need to figure out ways for putting the burden of victory on the VICTOR not the loser...
Clearly I'm not the only one who sees this situation, and as such, I challenge us to all reconsider what "winning" is.
Take a DM making events, for example? They make events, but every adversary they create for players will ultimately fall to the hands of the players. Is that not still winning for the DM?
Make small goals for our evil characters and consider that getting foiled is a win because you finally got noticed and you moved people to do something. So now to brew up the next scheme. See the above "letting our adversaries coexist" bit.
Fixtures can make for excellent tools for polite, antagonistic, evil RP without actively interfering with other players' fun. Put down some necromantic circle fixtures in the graveyard, or some infernal summoning circles in the temple and watch Cordor raises an army and an inquisition to find out who did it. And then when they finally track it back to you, be happy in the fact that you orchestrated a wide range of players to engage in RP to /do/ something.
Ahh, I remember those days well! That was a good scrap. But I seem to remember Vance taking a literal vacation from Arelith, and the entirety of Xyvil'kor leadership taking a 'permanent vacation' from Arelith shortly thereafter. But, if you were on the other side of the conflict, shoot me a DM regarding what was going on behind Vance's curtain in a DM so we don't derail the thread.