Arelith

Good Character wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:12 pm Summons are pretty fantastic in PvP for a blackguard.

For a 20 blackguard a Verdant Prince starts out at 39 AB as you mentioned. With SF: Conjuration it goes to 40 AB. Adjust for an extra 2 AB from Bull's Strength. 42 AB now. Divine Might for a lv 20 blackguard gives the summon an additional 4 AB. Slap on a Divine Sequencer for the Aid, and now you're at 47 AB. If you're doing the 3 fighter/7 knight/20 BG build, then that's an additional +2 AB from Rallying Cry. 49 AB and Spell Resistance to make the summon hard to get rid of with WoF.

Paladins are going to get flat-footed and lose all that Divine Shield AC to somebody - either the summon or its caster. We're not even accounting for the +2 AB flank bonus.

Not to mention blackguards now have access to the best undead summons is letting blackguards have their cake and eat it. If I understand it right blackguards get access to all undead summons as long as they learn the stream. In concept wights will be nasty with a valiant knight build, but we'll see what "weaker summons" actually ends up meaning.

The Elder Verdant Prince has 33 base AB, I think your calcs need some adjustment.

Also,

Algol wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:33 am Spellswords need 30 levels for +5

I dont believe this is correct as Spellswords have access to GMW as a spell and so should get access to +5 at level 17, right?

Is the Verdant Prince of blackguard so different than warlock's? I was getting 50+ ab on that thing quite recently, with gsf conjuration and bull's.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:31 am Is the Verdant Prince of blackguard so different than warlock's? I was getting 50+ ab on that thing quite recently, with gsf conjuration and bull's.

BG bulls and div synergies push it a bit higher on AB, I think, though I haven't checked stacking on sequencers and BG bull's strength.

TurningLeaf wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:19 pm I dont believe this is correct as Spellswords have access to GMW as a spell and so should get access to +5 at level 17, right?

Stacking enchantment abilities > non-stacking enchantment spells (GMW, keen blade, etc). Can't compare GMW to a stacking enchantment ability like corrupt weapon because a GMW weapon will never have keen and essences which adds considerable damage to a weapon's output.

Spellswords have an imbue ability that gives ab bonus (or enchantment bonus for marauders) that maxes at L30 with a 5 ab(or enchantment). This can be applied on any weapon which means they can gain keen and essence damage in addition to other wild goodies if they're creative enough - same with corrupt weapon.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:31 am Is the Verdant Prince of blackguard so different than warlock's? I was getting 50+ ab on that thing quite recently, with gsf conjuration and bull's.

As of my testing yesterday, yes.

39 AB on the prince with SF Conjuration ring and bulls ability applied.

Arienette wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:57 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:31 am Is the Verdant Prince of blackguard so different than warlock's? I was getting 50+ ab on that thing quite recently, with gsf conjuration and bull's.

As of my testing yesterday, yes.

39 AB on the prince with SF Conjuration ring and bulls ability applied.

I hate to ask this since you're not exactly clueless to these things but you did check in combat log and not the sheet, right?

Yeah checked by attacking stuff. The AB on sheet was 37 IIRC but in combat log was 39

Ork wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:44 am

TurningLeaf wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:19 pm I dont believe this is correct as Spellswords have access to GMW as a spell and so should get access to +5 at level 17, right?

Stacking enchantment abilities > non-stacking enchantment spells (GMW, keen blade, etc). Can't compare GMW to a stacking enchantment ability like corrupt weapon because a GMW weapon will never have keen and essences which adds considerable damage to a weapon's output.

Spellswords have an imbue ability that gives ab bonus (or enchantment bonus for marauders) that maxes at L30 with a 5 ab(or enchantment). This can be applied on any weapon which means they can gain keen and essence damage in addition to other wild goodies if they're creative enough - same with corrupt weapon.

But GMW sure works great for breaking DR which is the primary purpose of caring so much about the difference of being at +4 or +5, which any savvy NWN player cares very much about.

Also, no combination of essences with GMW? Huh? My level 30 cleric rocked a bronze weapon with GMW and essences as standard gear.

Finally, Keen can be obtained through consumables right? But +5 can't.

You can get +5 weapons with a GWM scroll if you are appropriate level.

In almost all cases, there are many better options than a +5 bronze weapon with a temp essence, just refer to Ork's post as why.

Seems like some form of recursion to both say the class gets to be OP if it can have an epic dump but get to +5 like everyone else, but then also say dw about +5 it's no big deal. Everyone knows it's a big deal, it's important to be able to break through +5 DR. Any spellsword who doesn't have GMW in their spellbook from levels 13-29 is an odd bird.

Also btw it's fairly strange to see people falling all over themselves to present bad/wrong info for reasons it should be so.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would I present the wrong information?

A spellsword using GWM really doesn't understand their class abilities. If it is that important, you can cast it on a weapon to swap in the circumstances that you need it, but you'll be able to make a better weapon in most cases with enchanting and imbue weapon.

Also btw it's fairly strange to see people falling all over themselves to present bad/wrong info for reasons it should be so.

I never understand why people need to act so smugly in these situations. If I'm legitimately wrong, then I can be corrected and that's great, but "falling over themselves" is quite a rude comment to add to any sort of reasonable discussion.

I'd like to add, that when someone says something that doesn't make sense to me, I tend to check the wiki to see if I'm misunderstanding something to correct myself. I don't really see what I'm misunderstanding in this case and have always operated based on what Ork is saying.

TurningLeaf wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:19 pm
The Elder Verdant Prince has 33 base AB, I think your calcs need some adjustment.

Also,

I dont believe this is correct as Spellswords have access to GMW as a spell and so should get access to +5 at level 17, right?

Correct. 33 base, but accounting for epic caster bonuses gets it bumped up to 39. (1/ab per odd level, 1/stat per odd level)

GMW is not a good comparison to Corrupt Weapon. GMW is unrestricted and attack bonuses do not stack. Corrupt Weapon can give +6 AB weapon with 12 physical damage if you use a m.damask at lv 20. Even at level 16 BG that's 4 AB and 10 damage.

So you can have:

A)
+5ab
5 phys
1d6 temp essence

Or

B)
+5AB
5 phys
4 perma essence
1d4 from basin
1d4 massive crit from basin
Keen from basin
3x +2 skill from basin
1d6 temp essence

I don't think these are remotely comparable

TurningLeaf wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:14 pm
But GMW sure works great for breaking DR which is the primary purpose of caring so much about the difference of being at +4 or +5, which any savvy NWN player cares very much about.

Also, no combination of essences with GMW? Huh? My level 30 cleric rocked a bronze weapon with GMW and essences as standard gear.

Finally, Keen can be obtained through consumables right? But +5 can't.

What? I don't care about DR, I care about damage. DR mitigates damage so having a +5 weapon is nice but I'm not going to sacrifice having a lower crit range because of it. Keen cannot be applied to a weapon with consumables, it must be enchanted or already present on the weapon.

You can't use a GMW on a weapon with a permanent essence, it'll not allow the enchantment to stack.

I'd really try to avoid making generalizations about savvy players since your comments aren't really painting you as one.

But for a blackguard vs. a fully defensively essences target, I think the best option damage wise is bronze weapon with "keen edge" on it, no?

Algol wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:37 pm So you can have:

A)
+5ab
5 phys
1d6 temp essence

Or

B)
+5AB
5 phys
4 perma essence
1d4 from basin
1d4 massive crit from basin
Keen from basin
3x +2 skill from basin
1d6 temp essence

I don't think these are remotely comparable

The spellsword gets access to A at level 17 and B at level 30. I'm not sure what holding up both and saying they're not the same is supposed to demonstrate. The spellsword can break +5 DR from character level 17.

Algol wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:06 pm But for a blackguard vs. a fully defensively essences target, I think the best option damage wise is bronze weapon with "keen edge" on it, no?

No, the best choice is a weapon with a good crits range, keen, and stacking damage types.

Say you have a weapon that is slashing, but also has 4 bludgeoning damage.

Hit it with corrupt, now it has +6 AB, 6 slashing and 4 bludgeoning damage. 6 AB and 10 physical dmg. Also add a permanent essence (divine) and a temp.

Algol wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:06 pm But for a blackguard vs. a fully defensively essences target, I think the best option damage wise is bronze weapon with "keen edge" on it, no?

I'd say the best weapon is mdamask, keened cavalier sword for blackguard. The damage type stacks with corrupt weapon enchantment.

TurningLeaf,

SS can do it at 17 via GMW spell. So can any other class with the spell in their spellbook, and there's 6 other classes.
Anyone with a GMW scroll and a bronze weapon can do it at 17, including BGs.
SS can do it at 30 with imbue.
BG can do it at 20 with curse weapon, which is actually less restrictive from a multi-class perspective than 30 SS imbue because the BG can have another class pre-epic.
Rangers can at 26 with blade thirst, and can cast BT on anyone else so technically anyone else at any level can get +5 by having a Ranger friend.
Rogues can do it at 19 with a +4 weapon because they get +1 innate.
Hexblade can do it at 25 with curse.
Monk can do it with Ki strike.

I'm sure I'm missing others. Listing all the different ways and levels to +5 isn't the point. Other classes can do other things that are different from BG. They don't all have to be the same. That's literally the nice thing about multi-classes and is part of design.

I think you're trying to make an argument that other classes get stuff at different levels than BG, so BG should get it, but honestly that isn't an issue. That's fine.

Why are you swinging on someone that has +5 DR active anyway? Being able to do damage through premo is a nice surprise tactic to try to rush someone down, but you should be breaching.

Ork wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:24 pm

Algol wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:06 pm But for a blackguard vs. a fully defensively essences target, I think the best option damage wise is bronze weapon with "keen edge" on it, no?

I'd say the best weapon is mdamask, keened cavalier sword for blackguard. The damage type stacks with corrupt weapon enchantment.

I agree, although I use a cav axe for the x3 instead. I like the burstier damage, but I can see why the 18-20 is favourable with BG's great ability to confirm crits with that AB.