Arelith

I'm pretty sure most of the concern around the marauder stems from the fact they now give up half their kit, for basically nothing, and that choosing to not be a marauder is functionally better than being a Marauder now.

Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization and Power attack are not exactly what I call a good trade off for taking the path, given what the path requires you to give up.

To me, it feels like the balancing team thought the Marauders were over populated, and just decided to gut the path to force people to abandon it, because these changes are massively heavy handed, and felt fairly sudden.

Arienette wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:04 pm -snip-
This does not seem like a reasonable trade, at all.

I can confirm that pathless is literally a better marauder than marauder now.

The nerfs are so abysmal that the class can barely perform as intended under endgame conditions. It has pitiful survivability for what constitutes as a "glass cannon" in this module as well.

It lost the cannon part, and just gained pure glass.

Just sort of giving this a little bump I guess?

I know we aren't "owed" anything here, but I was sort of hoping for some response from the team.

These changes to Marauder really undermine the path in a major way. I think a lot of us are waiting and hoping that perhaps some of these nerfs will be re-considered before we relevel into Abjurant Champ, Pathless, apply for -setclass, etc. I know this is the case for me.

I will preface this with two things.

One I am not a balance guru and do not make any decisions about balance. Two I play a spellsword myself so I am really familiar with the class as a whole.

Based on what I see, or this here:


Comparing these I can't say that I see that Marauder is a bad choice at all. It may not be what it was, but it is still a very valid and playable build.

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:28 pm I will preface this with two things.

One I am not a balance guru and do not make any decisions about balance. Two I play a spellsword myself so I am really familiar with the class as a whole.

Based on what I see, or this here:


Comparing these I can't say that I see that Marauder is a bad choice at all. It may not be what it was, but it is still a very valid and playable build.

One point in favor of marauder is it does go for more favorable feats, this much is true.

However, it now gains 6 damage and 1.5x STR to damage at the loss of immense AC and as well a gearing tax since it cannot 5% its own gear then imbue for +5 AC, it does not get either the imbue armor immunities, power attack being 5 AB for 5 damage only really appears to fluff up the sheet above, and so too must marauder use a 2h weapon and thus they too also lose the offhand slot for gearing.

They lose an immense amount of AC for what is a gain of about 8 damage if dex based or up to 14 damage if they go for 42 STR, but then are down now about 6 or 7 AC if dex based, or down now as well the 4 AC from weave armor bonus for as much as 12 or 13 AC, this being the 2 AC less on body than abjurant who will go heavy armor that is +5, 6 or 7 AC on shield if they use a shield skleen (where other skleens aren't uncommon because of gear inflexibility), and now 4 AC from weave AC being lost if they go STR based as it is rather untenable to go for CON, STR, INT, and then 14 DEX for even 2 of that weave AC, where 13 would be more preferable to cap out at +4 dex AC from studded leathers like draconic


Trading 1 AC for 1 damage like this is often a poor trade, and what also is not mentioned is they now lose the secondary bonuses such as AC, AB, regeneration, movespeed, etc from imbue armor and the biteback since those do not apply with imbue weapon anymore.


So the gain is really only EWS and 4/- now with no half maelstrom CD, no weave AC unless you have a hard dex mod which matches, no armor imbue nor their secondary effects, no enhancement bonus

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:28 pm I will preface this with two things.

One I am not a balance guru and do not make any decisions about balance. Two I play a spellsword myself so I am really familiar with the class as a whole.

Based on what I see, or this here:


Comparing these I can't say that I see that Marauder is a bad choice at all. It may not be what it was, but it is still a very valid and playable build.

A nice visualization!

However, I think it would be a more fair visualization to remove Power Attack from the bonus column altogether and then move "Need 13 Dex to maintain weave AC" to the Losses column.

1. Power attack is really not a useful feature. This is true for any class/build, and doubly true for Spellsword. Of all the types of builds who might tend to have Power Attack, Spellsword is in the worst position to make use of it, as it will have slightly lower AB to begin with than, say, a paladin or a weapon master. Generally speaking, the player base sees Power Attack as a pre-req feat for the Overwhelming Crit line of feats and for divine feats, neither of which Spellsword is in much a position to utilize.

2. I would say that the 13 DEX requirement is a straight up "loss". Attempting to build a Marauder this way effectively turns it into a 4-stat build and is just untenable IMO. At that point you are far better off playing a pathless SS, keeping a sensible stat block, keeping your armor imbues, keeping your weave AC, etc. This would be like capping Divine Shield AC to soft DEX mod and Divine Power to soft STR mod. Technically just a "pre-req" but effectively it would pull the rug out from virtually every paladin build that exists.

This is why you have people saying that a pathless SS makes a better 2hand SS than a Marauder does now.

So for me, it’s not so much the power drop, since considering my build isn’t quite optimized I lose a little ac, and like 1.5 damage from what I was before. Marauder is definitely still playable, though much more difficult in pve circumstances, I haven’t tested pvp, but I suspect it is largely unaffected, (pvp smart people please correct me if I’m wrong here lol). And I think almost everyone agrees that it was overturned and needed a nerf.
Problems arise for me when I ask the question, why play a marauder?” 6 damage from epic weapon spec, alright cool, for a dps glass cannon makes sense. And…. And… power attack? Uh, yay. On the other hand, an unpathed two-handed ss gets +5 armor, which opens up more gear options, armor imbue effects, deals slightly less damage with an equal cd on maelstrom, and idk what the ac on an unpathed ss ends up, but I imagine it would be low 50s ish. Imo almost people seem to be upset due to the fact this doesn’t feel like a balancing, but like the identity has been stripped from marauder because to many people played it.

TLDR;
There’s no reason to play marauder now, they are less flexible, more feat taxed, and even more difficult in pve for a relatively small damage increase. The nerf feels like it was trying discourage people from playing marauder, rather than balancing the class.

Also, I get that balancing classes is a real pain, and I’m not trying to criticize the devs, this is just what I have observed in my own marauder and from other people’s comments.

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:28 pm
2. I would say that the 13 DEX requirement is a straight up "loss". Attempting to build a Marauder this way effectively turns it into a 4-stat build and is just untenable IMO. At that point you are far better off playing a pathless SS, keeping a sensible stat block, keeping your armor imbues, keeping your weave AC, etc. This would be like capping Divine Shield AC to soft DEX mod and Divine Power to soft STR mod. Technically just a "pre-req" but effectively it would pull the rug out from virtually every paladin build that exists.

Why 13 dex? Don't you need a base 18 to maintain the dex? 13 dex is just going to give you +1 weave AC.

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:28 pm Comparing these I can't say that I see that Marauder is a bad choice at all. It may not be what it was, but it is still a very valid and playable build.

Why does Marauder not have the same loss with the no offhand as bladesinger?

At any rate.

Obviously, a lot of people play spellswords because they are very strong but also because people like the arcane warrior play style. So, the class as a whole should be adjusted.

I wouldn't have much to complain about if they got back the half malestrom cooldown and EB bonuses (maybe give them offensive only lvl 26 benefits), but if those aren't comping back, then champ should get a similar nerf.

So more apples to apples, why don't we look at it this way:

What is it like playing an un-pathed SS that goes 2hander vs. a Marauder that uses the 2-hander?

Svrtr wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:22 pm as well a gearing tax since it cannot 5% its own gear then imbue for +5 AC

I am not really sure what you mean by this.

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:18 pm So more apples to apples, why don't we look at it this way:

What is it like playing an un-pathed SS that goes 2hander vs. a Marauder that uses the 2-hander?

Assuming both go DEX and human with a 14/16/12/8/16/8 split with gift to DEX and INT, both using a Onislayer nodachi, and assuming you can Bless Weapon before Imbue Weapon (I haven't tested this fact), the important stats:

Pathless (14/16/12/8/16/8)
Damage: 40.5/hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 52
AB: 49
Feats: 2 extra to spare; 1 general feat, 1 spellsword bonus feat

Path (12/16/14/8/16/8)
Damage: 44.5/ hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 49
AB: 49
Feats: Lose 1 feat due to Toughness; has 60 more HP due to more CON and Toughness

Pathless has more AC than its counterpart due to Imbue Weapon (+2 AC over Fine Silk Shirt) and Cold Armor Imbue bonus.

Xerah wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:06 pm

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:28 pm
2. I would say that the 13 DEX requirement is a straight up "loss". Attempting to build a Marauder this way effectively turns it into a 4-stat build and is just untenable IMO. At that point you are far better off playing a pathless SS, keeping a sensible stat block, keeping your armor imbues, keeping your weave AC, etc. This would be like capping Divine Shield AC to soft DEX mod and Divine Power to soft STR mod. Technically just a "pre-req" but effectively it would pull the rug out from virtually every paladin build that exists.

Why 13 dex? Don't you need a base 18 to maintain the dex? 13 dex is just going to give you +1 weave AC.

With the recent change, if you do not have a base 13 Dex, you lose all 4 weave AC you previously had. As a marauder.

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:18 pm So more apples to apples, why don't we look at it this way:

What is it like playing an un-pathed SS that goes 2hander vs. a Marauder that uses the 2-hander?

To answer this I will quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Forget Abjuration Champion. Forget what Marauder "used to have". Lets just compare the Pathless to Marauder. This is what it boils down to as of this moment. Taking Marauder over Pathless means you lose all this:

1. The ability to use whatever basin enchanted armor you want imbued to +5 armor AC
2. Class level 25-30 & base (Hard) INT 18+: 30% immunity and 15/- resistance against a chosen element
3. Four bite-back damage
4. Weave bonus AC of 4
4. Your choice of the following, flexible on rest:
Acid: The above retaliation damage increases by 1d8.
Cold: Spellsword armor class increases by 1 (AC Dodge Modifier).
Electrical: Spellsword movement speed increases by 20%.
Fire: Spellsword attack bonus increases by 1.
Negative: Spellsword gains regeneration equal to her base (Hard) intelligence modifier, up to a maximum of +5. Healing scales with a target's immunity/vulnerability against negative energy damage.

You trade all of the above for:

1. DR of 4/- (theoretically 5/-)
2. Epic Weapon Spec (6 damage)

This does not seem like a reasonable trade, at all.

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:47 pm

Xerah wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:06 pm

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:28 pm
2. I would say that the 13 DEX requirement is a straight up "loss". Attempting to build a Marauder this way effectively turns it into a 4-stat build and is just untenable IMO. At that point you are far better off playing a pathless SS, keeping a sensible stat block, keeping your armor imbues, keeping your weave AC, etc. This would be like capping Divine Shield AC to soft DEX mod and Divine Power to soft STR mod. Technically just a "pre-req" but effectively it would pull the rug out from virtually every paladin build that exists.

Why 13 dex? Don't you need a base 18 to maintain the dex? 13 dex is just going to give you +1 weave AC.

With the recent change, if you do not have a base 13 Dex, you lose all 4 weave AC you previously had. As a marauder.

Was that changed? You only get a bonus weave AC = DEX mod. You need 18 DEX to get +4 weave AC

Xerah wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:04 pm

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:47 pm

Xerah wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:06 pm

Why 13 dex? Don't you need a base 18 to maintain the dex? 13 dex is just going to give you +1 weave AC.

With the recent change, if you do not have a base 13 Dex, you lose all 4 weave AC you previously had. As a marauder.

Was that changed? You only get a bonus weave AC = DEX mod. You need 18 DEX to get +4 weave AC

Oh geeze, your right. Either that was quietly edited from the original change or I just had an “old guy” moment lol.

Either way, that’s a loss of 4 AC for basically every existing marauder. Better to go path less 2hand SS if you intend to keep that AC, as only marauder has this requirement.

There is no reason to pick marauder over unpathed 2h spellsword now.
It’s not good.

Good Character wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:41 pm Pathless (14/16/12/8/16/8)
Damage: 40.5/hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 52
AB: 49
Feats: 2 extra to spare; 1 general feat, 1 spellsword bonus feat

How are you coming up with that sort of AB and AC?

msheeler wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:35 pm

Good Character wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:41 pm Pathless (14/16/12/8/16/8)
Damage: 40.5/hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 52
AB: 49
Feats: 2 extra to spare; 1 general feat, 1 spellsword bonus feat

How are you coming up with that sort of AB and AC?

Got lazy on the formatting.

10 base
15 dex
3 tumble
1 boot
5 imbue armor (armor ac)
1 cold armor
1 dusty skleen (shield ac)
5 shadow shield (natural)
1 mage armor (dodge)
4 weave
2 armor skin
4 shield spell (deflection)

BASE AB 20
DEXTERITY 15
WEAPON FOCUS 1
EPIC WEAPON FOCUS 2
IMBUE WEAPON 5
EPIC PROWESS 1
WEAVE AFFINITY 4
TWOHAND 1

Good Character wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:41 pm Assuming both go DEX and human with a 14/16/12/8/16/8 split with gift to DEX and INT, both using a Onislayer nodachi, and assuming you can Bless Weapon before Imbue Weapon (I haven't tested this fact), the important stats:

Pathless (14/16/12/8/16/8)
Damage: 40.5/hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 52
AB: 49
Feats: 2 extra to spare; 1 general feat, 1 spellsword bonus feat

Path (12/16/14/8/16/8)
Damage: 44.5/ hit (without elemental strike)
AC: 49
AB: 49
Feats: Lose 1 feat due to Toughness; has 60 more HP due to more CON and Toughness

Pathless has more AC than its counterpart due to Imbue Weapon (+2 AC over Fine Silk Shirt) and Cold Armor Imbue bonus.

I would also point out that the Marauder still has 4/- physical DR, which can be stacked with something like 15% physical res. based on gear.

Yes but the question is, does 6 damage and 4/- DR make up for the several things you lose?

Trading 6 dmg and 4/- DR for 4 AC, armor imbue AC, passive imbue bonuses (including the option for 4 regen per round), 4 biteback damage, etc is just a poor exchange all around.

That’s just compared to Pathless, not to say anything for the loss of EB and the loss of faster malestroms.

Arienette wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:12 pm With the recent change, if you do not have a base 13 Dex, you lose all 4 weave AC you previously had. As a marauder.

Xerah wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:04 pm Was that changed? You only get a bonus weave AC = DEX mod. You need 18 DEX to get +4 weave AC

The change was:

Update wrote: Weave Affinity: Bonus AC cannot exceed a Marauder's base DEX modifier.

And reminder that weave affinity is:

Update wrote: Weave Affinity:

The Spellsword gains +1 AB and dodge AC per 7 class levels, limited to her base intelligence modifier.

So a STR SS Marauder with something like a 17/8/14/8/16/8 spread cannot get weave affinity AC because their hard DEX mod is -1. That means essentially no weave affinity for the STR 2h Marauder; the stats spreads won't support it. That same non-path 2h STR SS can get 4 weave AC because their affinity AC is max hard int, and they'll have +4 int. I think that's the point Arienette was making.

Worth nothing, if you emergency shield turtle and you're not using a 2h as a Marauder, you lose the weave affinity AB too.

Honestly having played Maurader through PvE content, I cannot really say that I've ever really felt the effects of the 4/- DR.

I can't say I've ever been in a situation where I sat there and thought. "Man, I'd be dead if not for that 4/- DR" or "Thank gosh I have 4/- DR"

It's an invisible modifier that doesn't really remotely feel like it has much impact at all, I didn't even know I had it till I was nearly level 30 when someone pointed it out to me. It doesn't really seem to make me any noticeably tankier.

Arienette wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:57 am Yes but the question is, does 6 damage and 4/- DR make up for the several things you lose?

And the answer is yes. In PvP, at least. If you lean towards solo PvE I recommend considering pathless and maybe even going imp expertise ( it's not to say marauder can't pve, it's just a bit slower ).

Currently Marauder is still one of the strongest 2h on the server. It beats most standard builds in a 1v1 with a few exceptions as I haven't tested all the fights. It has some counters, mostly summoners, but that has always been the bane of 2h. The big list of nice pathless things keeps being posted but ultimately it boils down to 5 AC ( 4 from weave, 1 from +5 elven chainmail ) and 4 regen when doing PvE content ( I prefer magic over fire because fire is too situational ). Permahaste, premonition, energy shield, elemental shield lets them build more greedy and play more greedily in PvP because ultimately your job is to blow up people and get the hell out. You don't really need much else.

Different story if the AC threshold was around 53-54 with pathless but it's not. There could be a good argument why one should consider it and either options would be fine. Currently marauder is better ( again, if you care about PvP ), but you can absolutely go pathless if you want some AC for solo PvE purposes.

... also 4 dr is strong, it's equal to ignoring someone's epic spec. Or 2/3 of masterly damask damage, or 8 strength points worth of 1h damage, etc.

Idk, when I’m taking 60 point hits average, that extra four is kinda hard to notice. But I’m no pvp expert.