Arelith

Yvesza wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:13 pm People from Skal basically right outside the boat rental in the freeport of Guldorand

Thanks, I wish to try to address this IG.

We need to address that people are leaving Skal at 18, sometimes 19 these days because of the new Skal content. There's plenty of areas you can go to straight from Guldorand. I remember taking a character of mine on a walk straight from Guld to Minmir as soon as they got off the boat with no difficulty, grabbing portals along the way.

The thing is, you have to know that you can do that. More to the point, you have to know that your character is prepared to deal with those things.

But we're all acting like that's somehow unique to Guldorand. If you feel like Skal holds your hand, it's probably because you're playing with other people who know what they're doing and where to go, or you already know the module so well that you know how to navigate it.

But the mainland server is a lot bigger. And even the most populated settlements have times of the day where you just can't find anyone. It can be pretty hard to find your footing sometimes, but it's a problem everywhere. And it boils down to, "People are people," and this is a player-oriented server. You won't always be able to find people to RP with.

As a side note, it'd be nice if I didn't have to walk my butt all the way out to soulhaven whenever I want to teleport out of Guld. Cordor's got a portal right in the cultural district. I know that soulhaven is a nice setpiece, but still.

Ebonstar wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:39 pm

chocolatelover wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:18 pm

Ebonstar wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:40 pm

there wont ever be a lvl 2 up for Guld simply because outside the gates is 20-30 content just to get to and from the city, just like you mentioned.
Guld is for epics and those who use the ship system alot.

So, perhaps the solution is to MAKE Guldorand another possible starting point. Yes, it will take some work. Divide up the sewers so that everything in the port area is level 1-7, and everything around the middle of town is Level 8-15. Divide up the seres in some areas. Stick another cave right outside the town. Put some crypts under the monastery. Put a small island off the coast that you find clues to and a small boat.

nice ideas but Guld took years to put together as is. The places you are saying to divide up are already writ areas for nearly epics.

Maybe the answer is have Skal land at the crows nest or cordor

So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

chocolatelover wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:10 am So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

Wish I knew, I gave it a go myself, it's a lovely server. Maybe it really is so simple as highbies like to be around lowbies.

ElvenEdibles wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:07 am

Richrd wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:27 am 2. The fact that the docks and the rest of the city are split onto two different servers is awkward.

I think ALL ports are on the Surface server, for every city, including Andunor.

The area you arrive at in Cordor as a new character was moved? I wasn't aware.

chocolatelover wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:10 am

Ebonstar wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:39 pm

chocolatelover wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:18 pm



So, perhaps the solution is to MAKE Guldorand another possible starting point. Yes, it will take some work. Divide up the sewers so that everything in the port area is level 1-7, and everything around the middle of town is Level 8-15. Divide up the seres in some areas. Stick another cave right outside the town. Put some crypts under the monastery. Put a small island off the coast that you find clues to and a small boat.

nice ideas but Guld took years to put together as is. The places you are saying to divide up are already writ areas for nearly epics.

Maybe the answer is have Skal land at the crows nest or cordor

So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

IMO it’s because the server in general is too big. The surface of Arelith (I’m counting this as everything minus UD and Skal) has 5 major settlements, around 5 mini or pseudo settlements, and another dozen miscellaneous RP hubs.

If there is 120 people online, and almost half of them are in the wilderness? That leaves you with 70 players hanging around settlements or other RP hubs. The elves are congregating in Myon, the earthkin in Brog and bendir, various people in the Tower, Westcliff, Sibayad etc. That leaves you with 30-40 people let over. If the majority of them tend to hang out in Cordor (and they do), that means you are left with 5-10 people for Guldorand.

And that’s at average peak prime playtime. When 70 people are online, that leaves Guldorand with 0-5 people.

Arelith is big; maybe too big.

Richrd wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:08 am The area you arrive at in Cordor as a new character was moved? I wasn't aware.

Sorry, I thought you meant player ships.

EDIT: On Guldorand.

The vast majority of Arelith settlements started small and grew to accommodate growing player populations. Guldorand did not follow this trend and that's why it feels empty. I do not really see it as a failure though, and some of it's population is hidden on the surface server in the Myon High Hall. I do not consider it a failure though, it just shouldn't see any expansion for a long time. Revision, yes, expansion, no. I think it's size is due to excitement over the inclusion of haks, as that was around the time it was released.

ElvenEdibles wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:38 am some of it's population is hidden on the surface server in the Myon High Hall.

This is very true. Really Myon, The High Hall, and all of the Skull Crags should be on the Guldorand server, and if that was the case you would likely see it's numbers jump to that of Cordor. A bit more spread out perhaps, but it would give a clearer picture.

msheeler wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:10 am

ElvenEdibles wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:38 am some of it's population is hidden on the surface server in the Myon High Hall.

This is very true. Really Myon, The High Hall, and all of the Skull Crags should be on the Guldorand server, and if that was the case you would likely see it's numbers jump to that of Cordor. A bit more spread out perhaps, but it would give a clearer picture.

This isn't simply about server ndecision. It's about dropping new players off in a beautiful empty city near a beautiful empty monastery. Weird decision.

Is that in a fairly good place for people from Skal to see?

The problem with that sign is it sends people to other players who may or may not be online (probably not). There needs to be actionable info for them to be successful (i.e. go elsewhere).

That said, new characters starting in Cordor who have never played the server before are going to have similar issues regardless and the learning curve is part of the charm, I think. The confusion of what to do when you got Guldorand seems no different than running into Armoured Ogres the first time on Skal, for example.

As a whole, it would make more sense for them to go to Cordor, but the design is such that it is a way to help population flow (which doesn't work because the writs are either too high of a level or too difficult when considering the under geared people of Skal).

msheeler wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:28 am


Is that in a fairly good place for people from Skal to see?

People from Skal arrived on the Skaljardian Ferry in the freeport, not the pier. And there's already a sign near their spawn point actually.

Guldorand's current iteration has had problems since day 1, which was 19 months ago now.

The conception of the city, the artistry, its all great, but it's not working as intended, and is in need of Dev work.

As an example, we were told that these massive dungeons in the form of the Deep Wells would be added to over time, and would be something for everyone to look forward to... instead, they're rarely ever entered because of how they are set up, and there haven't been any additions to them that I am aware of in the last 19 months.

Cordor works so well as a city partially because of its layout, but also partially because it's a melting pot. Every day new characters arrive and are introduced to the establishing and established characters already there, prompting roleplay and interaction. Someone can make a name for themselves in Cordor, or, they can choose to move on to something more fitting for them.

Guldorand is set up as a mid to high level city. Those who get there are usually at least partially established, and where are they established? Generally elsewhere, as the city itself isn't set up for faction play, and the few factions that tried to get established when I was playing there in the first six months of Guldorand's existence either failed because of natural attrition, or because of issues with Guldorand's set up (the set up of the overseeing council and the alliance with Myon, laws in general, locks on government buildings not able to be changed, lack of guildhalls (there's one, woooo), city design not facilitating public square engagement, selling after adventures being irritating, writs with poor risk vs reward ratios, etc.). Some of this has been addressed, some has not.

I've not set foot in Guldorand in any meaningful way in months, and I've no desire to.

I can't imagine this being any better for someone coming from Skal.

In my opinion, people coming from Skal should be dropped instead at Sibiyad. It has writs of an appropriate level, is still on Distant Shores, is more self contained, and works as an introduction to things like Speedy Messenger, Portals, Riding, Boat travel, etc.

From there, they can choose to get a boat to the main island (Crow's Nest), and from there explore the jungles or get another boat to Brog, Guldorand, Cordor, etc.

chocolatelover wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:10 am So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

I think it's simply because it's hard to get to for most new folk and by the time they get there, as someone else already said, they've already established themselves. They've likely found RP around Cordor or maybe Bendir. If they haven't, they might get there at an empty time, think "this place sure is dead" and go back to try Cordor again. For the established characters (and perhaps players in some cases) they also have IC biases. There is a lot of IC fist-shaking against other settlements about their laws, history and practices. Some of them wouldn't be seen dead in Guldorand, I imagine. Guldorand's very liberal policy on religious factions, for example.

Though it should be noted, as someone brought it up earlier, that Cordor revoked their laws against certain faiths recently, so even there unless you're actually part of some murder group, you're fine worshipping pretty much whoever.

I first made the journey to Guldorand myself simply because exploring the island has been a big goal for me as a player and for my character. Now, regularly, I wander between most of the settlements to check in on news, but my main tie to Guldorand is it was the first place I found an afforable quarter I could rent. After that I got pointed towards the Skull Crags Rangers as a potential faction to join and here we are.

Arienette wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:16 am

chocolatelover wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:10 am

Ebonstar wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:39 pm

nice ideas but Guld took years to put together as is. The places you are saying to divide up are already writ areas for nearly epics.

Maybe the answer is have Skal land at the crows nest or cordor

So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

IMO it’s because the server in general is too big. The surface of Arelith (I’m counting this as everything minus UD and Skal) has 5 major settlements, around 5 mini or pseudo settlements, and another dozen miscellaneous RP hubs.

If there is 120 people online, and almost half of them are in the wilderness? That leaves you with 70 players hanging around settlements or other RP hubs. The elves are congregating in Myon, the earthkin in Brog and bendir, various people in the Tower, Westcliff, Sibayad etc. That leaves you with 30-40 people let over. If the majority of them tend to hang out in Cordor (and they do), that means you are left with 5-10 people for Guldorand.

And that’s at average peak prime playtime. When 70 people are online, that leaves Guldorand with 0-5 people.

Arelith is big; maybe too big.

average peak play time has 200 people online, but that isnt why Guld only has 20 people or less.

nice ideas but Guld took years to put together as is. The places you are saying to divide up are already writ areas for nearly epics.

Maybe the answer is have Skal land at the crows nest or cordor
[/quote]


But that misses the point... well 2 points. Guldorand is/feels empty. They (whoever they are) are actively trying to build up and are recruiting from Skal. Trying to explain why this is a shaky plan.

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:20 am

Arienette wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:16 am

chocolatelover wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:10 am



So then we've solved Skal people not coming to Guldorand, but why isn't anyone else? This place is SO EMPTY!!!

IMO it’s because the server in general is too big. The surface of Arelith (I’m counting this as everything minus UD and Skal) has 5 major settlements, around 5 mini or pseudo settlements, and another dozen miscellaneous RP hubs.

If there is 120 people online, and almost half of them are in the wilderness? That leaves you with 70 players hanging around settlements or other RP hubs. The elves are congregating in Myon, the earthkin in Brog and bendir, various people in the Tower, Westcliff, Sibayad etc. That leaves you with 30-40 people let over. If the majority of them tend to hang out in Cordor (and they do), that means you are left with 5-10 people for Guldorand.

And that’s at average peak prime playtime. When 70 people are online, that leaves Guldorand with 0-5 people.

Arelith is big; maybe too big.

average peak play time has 200 people online, but that isnt why Guld only has 20 people or less.

200 includes the 15-25 people on Skal and the 40-50 people in the UD.

A realistic number for “the surface” to include Sibayad, Cordor, and Guldorand is more like 120. Those 120 people are spread across too many settlements and other RP hubs for most of them to ever feel very populated.

In order for a city as large as Guldorand to feel fairly well inhabited, you would need about 30 characters there during peak times.

Let’s say there are 120 characters to “go around”, and none of them are out adventuring; all of them are hanging around doing social RP. And let’s say none of them are in “mini settlements” or other RP hubs. If you distributed them evenly across Cordor, Bendir, Brog, Myon, Sibayad and Guldorand, that would give you 20 characters per place. The tower, the grotto, westcliff, etc, all empty. Even then, Guldorand might feel sort of empty due to its size.

But of course characters do not distribute themselves across locations equally. And player count divided by settlement count is not the only cause of Guldorand being underutilized.

But let’s say the devs made some change that made Guldorand super amazing. To the point that a much larger number of characters decide to make it their main hub. Those characters have to come from somewhere else, which would just make one or more of the other settlements feel empty (or more empty).

When Guldorand was just a village, this worked out. 10 or so people in “old Guldorand”/Westcliff made it feel very alive. A couple in the trade hall, a couple in the Logjam, a few standing outside by the gate and BAM. A lively little village.

New Guldorand appeared out of nowhere, but presumably an appropriate number of new players were not magicked into existence to fill it up. At that time none of the settlements felt too crowded. A new space was created -a very large new space- and was bound to be empty just due to simple math. And even in the best case scenario where Guldorand was attractive enough to draw enough PCs to it to fill it up would just mean that other places would feel sad and empty.

I think we can all agree that if “the surface” had only 1 city, it would be too crowded. And if there were 100 cities, they would all be empty. Somewhere between 1 and 100 is the sweet spot. It seems obvious to me that replacing the small village of Westcliff with a massive city was enough to tip the equilibrium of the server. Back in the day, nobody would have complained that Village Guldorand was empty because it only had 5-10 people in it. But here we are.

ETA: Another example to illustrate. Let’s say a few players who are currently very active in the goings-on of other settlements decide to transplant themselves to Guldorand. Five from Bendir, 5 from Brog, 5 from Myon. Ten from Cordor and 10 from Andunor. Only Cordor and Andunor could survive this. You would have traded one ghost town for 3.

Arienette wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:21 pm Back in the day, nobody would have complained that Village Guldorand was empty because it only had 5-10 people in it. But here we are.

From a 2015 thread titled: Is Arelith "too big"? referring to the logging camp village:

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:05 pm I entirely agree with Scurvy. Also - if we must get rid o fa human settlment it really needs to be Guldorand - it is by far the least used settlment.

There's a fair argument in this thread that truly new players could be shepherded better from Skal to the mainland. I haven't seen any convincing answers why moving the landing settlement would change anything. Maybe the answer is expanding the -ama system into something like FF XIV's sprouts.

Otherwise, I'm not buying any of the side arguments that the server is too big. According to the player counts thread there were 674 players in 2016. Last updated July 2022 for 2357 players. The data obviously supports having more spaces for more players.

Skal to Guld doesn't work because Guld doesn't work.

It needs to have a central two-way portal right in the middle of the city somewhere.

For a settlement to be active you REALLY need those lower level players. Who do you think is buying all the heal kits and arrows and jewelboxes? That funds the cities economy and gives people a reason to park their epic there to make money.

The freeport should have all of it's temp shops on the docks and maybe a ferry or two to some offshore islands for early lvling.

Make it so I can start on the docks and work my way up from there. Selling my overflow at the shops right near where the ships are. that way I can meet people heading out on the ships and maybe catch a ride with them. You come to the city to do shopping, sailing, and writwork. Put that stuff all close to each other so people can mingle more naturally. Gimme my temp shops and my low level writs all down on the docks and let me start in Guld and then maybe I can meet some peeps from skal as they roll in.

You need to be able to have people grow up, per se, in Guldorand for it to really have life.

Mattamue wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:01 pm

Arienette wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:21 pm Back in the day, nobody would have complained that Village Guldorand was empty because it only had 5-10 people in it. But here we are.

From a 2015 thread titled: Is Arelith "too big"? referring to the logging camp village:

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:05 pm I entirely agree with Scurvy. Also - if we must get rid o fa human settlment it really needs to be Guldorand - it is by far the least used settlment.

There's a fair argument in this thread that truly new players could be shepherded better from Skal to the mainland. I haven't seen any convincing answers why moving the landing settlement would change anything. Maybe the answer is expanding the -ama system into something like FF XIV's sprouts.

Otherwise, I'm not buying any of the side arguments that the server is too big. According to the player counts thread there were 674 players in 2016. Last updated July 2022 for 2357 players. The data obviously supports having more spaces for more players.

Yes, it was less populous than other settlements. And replacing it with a gigantic city was supposed to improve that?

Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. I’m not saying that Arelith doesn’t have enough players. I’m saying it doesn’t have enough players to even attempt to fill all the spaces provided, even some of the time. Walk into any “surface” settlement or semi-settlement that isn’t Cordor, on any given day at 8 AM, Noon, 2 PM, 6 PM, and 10 PM. Take your pick. Often, many of these places will be empty or have 1 or 2 people in them at best.

Arelith’s surface has so many “places” that almost all of them will necessarily be completely empty almost all of the time. Cordor, Guldorand, Myon, Brog, Bendir, Sibayad, Shyr Farm, Gloom, Darrowdeep, Jotunhold, Westcliff, Grotto, Tungsten Turret, Tower, Radiant Heart, Bane Church, Greyhammer, Grove, Sencliff, Crows Nest, Etc. Not to mention 10+ player owned ships.

The question is less “why is Guldorand so empty” and more “how on earth are we so lucky that any of these places ever feel lived in?”

Yes, there are systemic things about Guldorand that make it less attractive than, say, Cordor. But even if it was just as attractive or 90 percent as attractive as Cordor, that would not necessarily solve the issue. Depending on settlement size, in order to feel alive, a settlement needs a certain number of very active “settlement PCs” to whom their citizenship or allegiance is a key part of their characters personality and motivations. These people make up the government officials, the guards, the merchants, event organizers, and the folks that like to hang around and chit chat about the goings on in town.

Cordor has enough of these characters, perhaps a small surplus. The racial settlements constantly struggle to have enough of these characters to keep “afloat”. Even if people became highly incentivized to transplant themselves to Guldorand: where are these necessary 20+ “settlement characters” supposed to come from?

it makes sense to drop people off at guld from skal cause it's geographically close enough to have a ferry. So is Brog so maybe that should be where they get dropped off. Can then take a boat or go up to the halls and walk down the mountain. would be level appropriate too.

That doesn't change the fact that guldorand should be more low-mid level friendly. It's holding the city back because we basically tell people that if you're not lvl 20 or up there's nothing here for you but places to spend money you probably don't have much of yet.

Rowlind Salem wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:25 pm Skal to Guld doesn't work because Guld doesn't work.

It needs to have a central two-way portal right in the middle of the city somewhere.

For a settlement to be active you REALLY need those lower level players. Who do you think is buying all the heal kits and arrows and jewelboxes? That funds the cities economy and gives people a reason to park their epic there to make money.

The freeport should have all of it's temp shops on the docks and maybe a ferry or two to some offshore islands for early lvling.

Make it so I can start on the docks and work my way up from there. Selling my overflow at the shops right near where the ships are. that way I can meet people heading out on the ships and maybe catch a ride with them. You come to the city to do shopping, sailing, and writwork. Put that stuff all close to each other so people can mingle more naturally. Gimme my temp shops and my low level writs all down on the docks and let me start in Guld and then maybe I can meet some peeps from skal as they roll in.

You need to be able to have people grow up, per se, in Guldorand for it to really have life.

Thank you for saying this better than I did!!!!

Brog would be a great place to drop Skal folks off. It’s active, it has amenities, it has level appropriate writs, the dwarves are friendly enough to answer questions and if you’re not a dwarf it’s a good place to be when figuring out where you’re headed next.

Hello!

As I've dedicated about 95% of my online time these last few months to Guldorand I want to give some pointers

I chose Guldorand this time around because the city and the concept are both awesome and it's a niche I hadn't tried before.
And wow, I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. There are a lot of IC initiatives surrounding Guldorand that are both interesting and storied. Unfortunately there is also a lot of stuff that I've assumed to be OOC motivated - some of which are quite obviously that. The biggest point of frustration has likely been old players playing new characters that keep regurgitating the same narratives IC. As I don't usually partake in OOC discussions, this thread has really been helpful in understanding that my assumptions have likely been correct. I'm happy to address a few points.

Guldorand is empty
If you're looking for city square campfire RP, this is probably true. Personally I cannot think of many things more mind-numbing than idling in the square and waiting for someone to get bored enough to do something stupid, but I can respect that it is what other people like. If you measure settlement activity by Discord activity, I can't comment on that.
It's simply not true in any other way, neither in numbers on the playerlist, nor in activity. To say otherwise is insulting and disrespectful to the time people have spent IC trying to make Guldorand an interesting place.
Granted, the people I have had the opportunity to roleplay with aren't online 24/7. There are likely downtimes during US late / EU mornings.

I have a feeling that there are people commenting on the current situation of the Guldorand server that fall in this category:

Rei_Jin wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:23 amI've not set foot in Guldorand in any meaningful way in months, and I've no desire to.

Guldorand needs a central portal
That's true, I don't know why Cordor gets a random portal source in a random green space like that. The portal situation is what makes Guldorand feel "out of the way".

Guldorand lacks the supply of low-level characters
Yep. There are a couple of great points made on this topic. All the more, directing migrating Skaljard players to other settlements doesn't make things better, it makes things worse. Add on top that I've actually had this sort of interaction a couple of times:

Arriving Skaljard character: "Hi can you help me"
Me: *helps* Oh, and do you want a tour, I can show you available quarters and explain how you can get involved
Arriving Skaljard character: "Oh no don't bother I won't stay long"

And still, some Skaljard randoms stay around. People who want to move on from Guldorand to Cordor or elsewhere, will. There's no need to change that. "Send characters directly to Cordor/Brogendenstein" is not a suggestion that helps the situation.

Guldorand difficulty is too high to allow for low-level characters

This is very true. Guldorand would likely benefit from exchanging mobs to allow for difficulty progression as you move outwards from the city, as it is for settlements. Brogendenstein has a similar situation, but bugbear mobs are way more forgiving than boogins and harpies.

Guldorand's concept sucks
Having to deal with this IC/OOC is very tiring. I wish more people would simply respect the setting. Don't get me wrong, I can enjoy dealing with nonsense IC, but the times people have tried to "change the Charter" with clear OOC gripe instead of working with what you're given is absolutely ridiculous. Guldorand is designed to be melting pot in a way that Cordor, Brogendenstein, RH, Bendir, Andunor, Sencliff etc. never can. It's designed to have nuance and allow for unparalleled depth. It doesn't shoehorn you into the ever same, but by its very concept, allows for constellations that aren't possible elsewhere. A paladin might not want to, or survive, hanging out in the Andunor hub. A pirate usually won't be allowed to linger in Cordor. Abyssal cultists won't be tolerated in Brogendenstein. Duergar won't frequent Bendir...


All of this leaves me with two points to make

About old players
I invite old players to get out of their bubble, get involved and try to respect the setting when they play in Guldorand, instead of repeating the ever same narrative. You're not making things better. Maybe you can ask yourself what you want to achieve when you pick one of the two camps:

1. Create a character and be a pain about how Guldorand sucks and the concept [charter] needs to be changed for Guldorand to become "relevant".
2. Don't create a character and keep telling everyone Guldorand is empty and sucks.

Maybe there's something else that can be done here.

About new players
Why does Skaljard to Guldorand not work for some people?
Because Skaljard is often as idle / adventure / hub RP as it gets, while Guldorand is, by concept a difficult place to navigate in, with a lower character turnover. I really love Skaljard and enjoy the RP there when I play new characters but it's a very, very different culture to play in.

As has been said, new players could use a little more guidance when entering Guldorand. Something that can be addressed IC and Dev-side.

Guldorand is near the top tier of settlements in terms of portals. It’s sort of far away but it’s a safe zone.

Bendir is way worse off. And Brog is not far behind unless your an earthkin or a settlement official.

Many people might not know this, but Guldorand had a source portal smack dab in the middle of the city. It’s just behind a locked door only settlement officials can open for whatever reason.