Summons are overpowered

[jubisloviu]

I'm admittedly a bit crazy in the way I play casters, as I have no fear of drawing aggro and micromanaging around it, but with that disclaimer out of the way I'm going to go ahead and say that leveling a melee character is way easier. It's just a bit more expensive.

If you are stating that levelling a melee character is way easier than a summoner, i genuinely believe you're incorrect or offering feedback in bad faith to not admit how hard summons trivialize the game as they current stand.

It's not a "bit" more expensive to level a melee character, the quantity of currency they spend just to afford their gear is no diminutive, it's a totally different magnitude compared to for instance a sorcerer, i've levelled a sorcerer to 30 just recently (hit 30 last weeek) and from 3 to epics (when i started actually gearing myself) the only expenses i had were with some healing kits (and later cure critical wound wands), never had to purchase a single spell component because i could craft those myself, never had to repair none of my equipment because the only way for your gear to lose durability is if you are attacking.
It was totally fine to live with random equipment drops that gave +1 charisma and +1 con until i reached level 27 to actually be able to enchant my gear, but this is not a thread about the disparity between melee characters and casters, this is a thread to discuss how strong summons are.

Without words, this is a summon creature V from a level 9 cleric with GSF:Conjuration. (the same can be done with a level 10 sorcerer with GSF:Conjuration and level 9 wizard with GSF:Conjuration)

And it just snowballs from there, as soon as you can afford a book of earth for a earth stream (wich you can easily afford since you pretty much swim on money from not needing to spend it on basically anything) you can use the earth elementals pretty much without trouble to tackle the module's content at your own level until you hit epics for planar conduit.
From the moment i hit level 21 and selected Planar Conduit as my feat, it was at that singular moment the buddies i played with were reduced to basically "looters" because they had more carry weight than me, and i just blasted throught zones with a mass hasted planar conduit without giving any thoughts at all about strategy or so.

[richardio]

It's so easy on my wild mage that it feels like I'm not even playing Arelith.

[Kalthariam]

Literally takes one spell, maybe two to completely wipe out a summon.

Then what? Some Classes are completely dependent on Conjurations to be able to do anything at all, and summons have already been pretty screwed over for some classes post the dumb Runic Sequencer Update.

Planar conduit can't even be resummoned like undead can be, so if you drop a planar conduit out of existence the summoner can't do anything further, except maybe a gate. Oh look it's a Deva aaaand in any serious circumstance it's gone.

Only thing conjurations are dangerous against is glass cannons and other summoners.

Weapon masters can outright delete people in less than 6 seconds in many cases, but we don't see anyone complaining about them one rounding people, and you can't even do anything but try to push as much AC as you can. (If you are a class that can do so) and hope they roll crap for their AB rolls.

I'm far more afraid of a Martial character than I ever will be of a summoner.

[AstralUniverse]

Literally takes one spell, maybe two to completely wipe out a summon.

Your first spell(s) are eaten by 42 sr or spell mantle. You need to beach the protection and THEN nuke the summon with some other spell. If you're not a spellbook caster, this will take you at least 12 second and then you are 12 seconds behind in positioning and battle tempo. It's really not as simple as you present it. You can actually thank the sequencers for that, ironically.

Weapon masters can outright delete people in less than 6 seconds in many cases, but we don't see anyone complaining about them one rounding people, and you can't even do anything but try to push as much AC as you can. (If you are a class that can do so) and hope they roll crap for their AB rolls.

I did address that in my posts above. The thing is it boils down to how the fight starts and who has more buffs on them already, whether or not the summoner already has the summon out or not. I think that the fact a weapon master can delete the mage fast is important and the only reason mundane characters are strong in pvp still and also remember that some or even most casters these days have around 60 ac (looking at caster shamans, invokers, div sorcs, div or monk clerics) when fully buffed so the weaponmaster must get the jump on them and nuke them very early on in the fight or the caster gains a huge advantage.

[Sandrow]

I'm pretty sure summons are overpowered. For example, any summoner with ESF:Conjuction could summon another summoner, the newly summoner can also summon another summoner. Soon and you have to fight against an army of summoners and finally someone who is a melee fighter as tough as yourself. These summons are more ridiculous then demons, and obviously overpowered. All summons I mentioned above deserve to be nerfed.

[I will never sleep]

I think conjurations are bland both thematically and when they are oppressively strong as is. I get tired of seeing 90% of pcs with ants or frogs. When there are a lot of pcs around, it gets to maplestory tier screen clutter of Summoned Xs or Ys combined with spell effects. I think I'd be happier overall if summons were just nerfed to vanilla tier uselessness outside of short term ones like Gate honestly.

I understand why they exist, from the perspective of vancian magic and casters not really being able to do content much without them*, but it's not really worth the cost to me. The details can be sorted out. Cantrips and such can be made better, or solo Arelith can just die altogether- but I am really, really tired of Summons and how steeped Arelith at almost every single corner. Nearly every pc there's an elemental, or an outsider, or undead.

Also what Tarkus said is completely true, as usual. But I don't even mean necessarily mechanically. I think the extent and widesweeping nature of conjurations is deleterious to the setting and my capacity to rp seriously. That's my feedback.

The amount of people in this thread that think standing still for 12 seconds in a duel to breach or grounds mords and then wof summons is going to end well for the person doing it is funny, too.

[Kalthariam]

Literally takes one spell, maybe two to completely wipe out a summon.

Your first spell(s) are eaten by 42 sr or spell mantle. You need to beach the protection and THEN nuke the summon with some other spell. If you're not a spellbook caster, this will take you at least 12 second and then you are 12 seconds behind in positioning and battle tempo. It's really not as simple as you present it. You can actually thank the sequencers for that, ironically.

Weapon masters can outright delete people in less than 6 seconds in many cases, but we don't see anyone complaining about them one rounding people, and you can't even do anything but try to push as much AC as you can. (If you are a class that can do so) and hope they roll crap for their AB rolls.

I did address that in my posts above. The thing is it boils down to how the fight starts and who has more buffs on them already, whether or not the summoner already has the summon out or not. I think that the fact a weapon master can delete the mage fast is important and the only reason mundane characters are strong in pvp still and also remember that some or even most casters these days have around 60 ac (looking at caster shamans, invokers, div sorcs, div or monk clerics) when fully buffed so the weaponmaster must get the jump on them and nuke them very early on in the fight or the caster gains a huge advantage.

My mundane just time stops, and simply erases summons without any issue through various breaches and WoF, then deletes the summoner from existence. That's assuming they are buffed with SR. Tools exist to counter things.

My other characters a healer cleric, whom is literally worthless without summons, and the amount of mobs that have planar turning and dismissal spells are frustratingly apparent when you basically die the moment your summons disappear.

I don't see the summoner play style being really any different from the right click martial play style. You still just direct the in-game entity with a button click and watch it go. PvE martial content is right click the right mob first and stab it till it dies and your character swaps targets. Somehow that's compelling compared to directing a mob to right click the right target and watch them flail at the targets till dead than swap.

Don't understand the frustrations people have with Conjurations personally. I don't even use frogs or ants.

Also the amount of people that think all PvP exists in a 1v1 duel setting where everyone's fully warded and fully prepared all the time and in their best possible spellbooks and and having all their spells in order is kinda crazy.

[Helsing]

Don't understand the frustrations people have with Conjurations personally. I don't even use frogs or ants.

Then maybe you shall try using frog and ants before comment on pve aspect? Also try level a martial and summoner at same time to lvl 30, without help from factions and see how's difference.

[Richrd]

Okay, about that tiger that jubisloviu posted there.

Is that seriously a level 5 summon or are we being tricked here?

Because wow, if that's real then not only has effectively nothing changed for epic levels since the pocket-EDK-meta times but things have only gotten worse at pre-epics too.

Never change, Arelith. May mundanes suffer eternally.

[Subtext]

5th circle with GSF conjuration...so level 9 or 10 for spontaneous casters

[Xerah]

As someone levelling a Paladin, the funny thing (sad?) is that the tiger is about equivalent to my character at 18 (though it does less damage)

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Yes, those stats are the result of a 30-minute balance pass that was done in response to Irongron basically telling me summons needed to be buffed after the sequencer update. Summons will be back on the chopping block when someone has the motivation to do it (which won't be me any time soon), In other words, enjoy them while they last before they inevitably yo-yo back into uselessness.

[AstralUniverse]

Yes, those stats are the result of a 30-minute balance pass that was done in response to Irongron basically telling me summons needed to be buffed after the sequencer update. Summons will be back on the chopping block when someone has the motivation to do it (which won't be me any time soon), In other words, enjoy them while they last before they inevitably yo-yo back into uselessness.

LOL <3

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Yes, those stats are the result of a 30-minute balance pass that was done in response to Irongron basically telling me summons needed to be buffed after the sequencer update. Summons will be back on the chopping block when someone has the motivation to do it (which won't be me any time soon), In other words, enjoy them while they last before they inevitably yo-yo back into uselessness.

sequencers made summons more powerful in pve lolz..maybe they can't get end game bosses like they used to with a gazzilion buffs on them, I don't know I never went that route anyways, but they are still more than fine to stand there and hold the line while I use what few spells work on them to take them down bit by bit. And my assortment of those spells are much larger now thanks to sequencers.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

[

If you are stating that levelling a melee character is way easier than a summoner, i genuinely believe you're incorrect or offering feedback in bad faith to not admit how hard summons trivialize the game as they current stand.

I never do the bad faith thing, and I am rarely incorrect. But I also said that I have no fear of drawing aggro on a caster, which probably leads to me thinking that. Sure, I could just let my summons go and hide until the fights over, that seems pretty easy. But it also seems completely boring, and I actually enjoy challenging pve.

That being said, there is definitely an exaggerated narrative surrounding how hard it is to level a mundane. It definitely takes more knowledge of the game, as you need to know what to kill first and what buffs counter what spells, and the buffs can get pretty expensive if you just load up on them from the jump and have to refresh from time to time. But if I find myself guzzling a ton of healing along the way, chances are I'm doing something wrong. Melee characters are all about positioning yourself right, and whether that means using a corner to your advantage or bringing the melee guys toward the casters/archers so whatever said casters and archers do cause an aoo (who doesn't like free attacks per round?) or some sort of mix of the two really depends on the situation.

And yes, at the end of the day (or more accurate, at level 30) the caster has more gold than the warrior. But now that Caster needs some warrior friends to survive pvp, so chances are they are more than willing to help you finish your gear set

[-XXX-]

That being said, there is definitely an exaggerated narrative surrounding how hard it is to level a mundane.

It is not hard, but imagine how old farming all the adamantine and runic materials must get when you're trying to gear up your 12th cookie-cutter weapon master this year alone.

People need to stop sifting through characters so fast, slow down and chillax a little.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

That being said, there is definitely an exaggerated narrative surrounding how hard it is to level a mundane.

It is not hard, but imagine how old farming all the adamantine and runic materials must get when you're trying to gear up your 12th cookie-cutter weapon master this year alone.

People need to stop sifting through characters so fast, slow down and chillax a little.

If i play two characters in a year I played too much nwn that year, so I can't relate.

[Richrd]

Yes, those stats are the result of a 30-minute balance pass that was done in response to Irongron basically telling me summons needed to be buffed after the sequencer update. Summons will be back on the chopping block when someone has the motivation to do it (which won't be me any time soon), In other words, enjoy them while they last before they inevitably yo-yo back into uselessness.

Well, that's for sure one hell of an honest and self-deprecating reason for summons being the way the currently are.

Based. *tips hat*

[Exordius]

Most pvp is not 1v1 its more like 20v1 so thats bs and if you nuke summons that makes casters unplayable. Saying mundanes are weak is also an outright lie, 90% of the non-caster melees i fight take about 10 seconds to kill my summon and about another 10 seconds to kill me. Does not matter what summon i have out, they kill it as if it was not even there so please spare me the made up narrative sheesh.

[Kalthariam]

Don't understand the frustrations people have with Conjurations personally. I don't even use frogs or ants.

Then maybe you shall try using frog and ants before comment on pve aspect? Also try level a martial and summoner at same time to lvl 30, without help from factions and see how's difference.

I have.

I've watched my frogs in the past get turned and turned useless by random mobs all the time, watched them get dissmissed, watched them get killed in a few seconds by a bad pack of enemies and bad rng. Still happens with other conjurations that I have now too.

Sure they hit hard, removing summons has never been hard. It happens all the time in PvE and PvP.

My summoner doesn't use Frogs or Ants now because their alignment doesn't allow them to. I have used them in the past.

My mundane has infinitely easier time doing content on their own than my summoner does post sequencer update.

If you compared it before the sequencer update then sure it'd be easier as a caster, but that's not the world we live in. Hasn't been for a while now.

Seriously it takes nearly zero effort to remove a summoner's main form of damage, then they are just a sub par caster (Assuming they even have offensive spells that were not just gutted by all spells now respecting Spellcraft)

Everyones got Evasion or 35+ saves in every damn category in PvE and PvP, the only people that don't are very low level monsters whom haven't had their templates jacked to 11, or low level players. Without conjurations in many cases casters are literally just punching bags for martials while they are running around frantically hoping you Nat 1 a save on a spell so they can finally stop running.

While Martials run around and have the capability of one rounding people these days with little to no recourse for many.

This pointless hate against conjurations when conjurations are literally the only tools Casters have right now to do any meaningful amount of PvE content is ridiculous. Join a group? Why so that all you do is sit there and ward the Martials and get to >watch< them do everything because after you ward people your limited spells are already taken up by casting wards on the martials so they get to go crazy and all the monsters you run into have minimum 35 saves half the time?

Yeah I'm sure wizards have so much fun literally just watching everyone else fight as they get turned into Mass Haste bots, because that's the most contribution they can provide to a PvE group outside of warding people. Oh? They can spam cantrips now? That's nice they can just spend their entire turn spamming 20ish average damage at something while everyone else murders everything.

Its even worse on cleric paths that don't get infinite refreshes on combat focused abilities. Only time my healer cleric gets to EVER feel useful in PvE content is against undead. Otherwise? I'm just a buff bot that watches all the martials completely ignore damage outside of some waves of mobs that like to randomly spawn 3+ mobs that all like to chain cast meteor swarm. Then I might get to cast a single circle of healing! I just love watching everyone else do everything and just watching from the backline, because without conjurations I literally contribute nothing to a party once my buffs are applied.

This entire outrage over Conjurations being able to clear PvE content is absolutely stupid.

Martials as always are the real threat when it comes to any PvP encounter, and once you buff a martial they clear PvE content faster than a Conjurer ever does. Only time this isn't the cast is when the martial is low level and has garbage gear. But even at low level there's a night and day difference between Martials getting Wards from higher levels and casters.

My cleric wards a low level martial, they become a demi-god whom can PvE forever and runs into no issues. Best I can do for a conjurer is try to slip them a higher level summon monster scroll that they can physically read and hope for the best.

Side note:

I love how people say martials have to spend sooo much money on things and that casters get everything for free (Laughable, have you ever heard a wizard not complain about how much gold they have to spend on spell components? xD), but my level 30 healer cleric has been level 30 for ages and doesn't have to use spell components for spells but averages about 700-900k in the bank.

Yet my mundane that spends tens of thousands of gold on Time Stop, mordes and WoF scrolls and every potion under the sun has been 30 for less than a month and has a bank account over the million gold mark.

Martials make plenty of money, ESPECIALLY when you actually go out and do things to sell stuff to other players and be productive.

If all your doing is coasting on writ money and complaining about having to buy baby potions (I buy druidic / shamatic potions, much better, taste better too than store bought.) then that's a YOU issue. Your not going out of your way to actually make money, plenty of people are constantly in need of various supplies in the world that can be in many cases gathered from areas that you don't need to ward to get to, or in some cases you don't even really need to FIGHT at all to get the materials.

It's silly that for all the complaints that martials have so much consumable tax, I can literally often just approach anyone with a staff in their hand and by being polite and nice generally get a few wards that can tide me over for most situations. (Then you can find the people that ENJOY randomly buffing people and letting them run off with buffs, like my cleric), and go stab things and make a few grand to easily pay for the mundane consumables I need.

Sounds to me it's not a lack of ability to make money on martial characters, it's a lack of effort.

[AstralUniverse]

Everyones got Evasion or 35+ saves in every damn category in PvE and PvP

At this point I believe you argue in bad faith. Not a lot of builds go for evasion and MANY builds cannot even reach 35 on their lowest save even with +20 soft cap. Please stop.

[Xerah]

I’ve never seen a post on here that much different from my own experience, it’s wild.

[Aren]

Yes, those stats are the result of a 30-minute balance pass that was done in response to Irongron basically telling me summons needed to be buffed after the sequencer update. Summons will be back on the chopping block when someone has the motivation to do it (which won't be me any time soon), In other words, enjoy them while they last before they inevitably yo-yo back into uselessness.

Well, that's for sure one hell of an honest and self-deprecating reason for summons being the way the currently are.

Based. *tips hat*

Before the 30 minute balance pass, you couldn't even do low level writs as a caster without spamhealing your summon. And even then it would get shredded. SK did the right thing when she buffed the summons. Are they too strong right now? Possibly. But the balance pass was necessary at the time.

[Aren]

Also keep in mind that a lot of the newer content is balanced around the current power levels of characters, spells and summons. And I know from experience that earlier content slowly is being updated to be in line with newer content, balance-wise.

[Kalthariam]

Everyones got Evasion or 35+ saves in every damn category in PvE and PvP

At this point I believe you argue in bad faith. Not a lot of builds go for evasion and MANY builds cannot even reach 35 on their lowest save even with +20 soft cap. Please stop.

Have you tried tossing a DC spell at an epic dungeon random mob recently? Even the dumb ooze tubes of mobs have ridiculous saves because NPC Saves are inflated. Unless you push your DC's to be 40+ your not often hitting too many save DC based spells.

A bad save is minimum what? 11 at level 30? 6 from leveling up to 20, then another 5 from the epic levels? Toss in a +20 through Spellcraft gearing ect, and your at 31 minimum.

35 is a very mild exaggeration (except when it's not), you dismissing the entire post due to a very mild exaggeration is what is bad faith.

And since all spells now respect spellcraft, getting full +20 to saves is even more so easy for people to achieve.