Arelith

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am So let's get a True Strike -mageddon. Arelith has never shied away from trying out new, sometimes radical solutions. But it always gets adjusted and tweaked, most of the time for the better.

I agree that a D&D game like NWN should feel like we're rolling dice, and not like the pseudo-action, exploitable game it feels like right now.

Hell yeah. Let's do it.

We're at a point where my own heckin spells don't work on my own fricken summons. How much more radical can we get? True strike changes would be NOTHING.

Death to benny hill meta.

What if True Strike just gave you one guaranteed hit (wears off after a turn to stop people taking a potion hours ago and sitting on the buff, and no, it doesn’t allow auto KD)? That’s not letting someone land a flurry but it does help towards fighting the impossible ACs just a little.

I’m just tossing ideas here to play around with.

True strike is an answer to godly AC, I’m not sure what would be in its place to counter 70+ ac builds with epic Dodge.

It's not just true strike - practically everything that has the word "divine"* in its name does pretty much the same.
...and even if that went away, I doubt that it'd have done anything to solve the Benny Hill meta.

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*power/favor/might/shield/wrath = ye olde cleric or paladin wind-up

True strike, epic dodge they all have counters that you learn as you play.

Epic dodge gets eaten by knock down and potion spam leaves the user flat footed and unable to attack for a few sec which you use to sneak in a few hits just need to time it right to also avoid instant attacks.

Morgy wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:59 amTrue strike is an answer to godly AC, I’m not sure what would be in its place to counter 70+ ac builds with epic Dodge.

Axes and persistence.

When you're dishing out 250dmg per touch, luck begins working in your favor very, very quickly.

I've played a lot of EDodge builds, and they get eaten alive by twohanders, even with 70+ AC.

Just give True strike the same treatment as Divine power or Holy sword, it can't be used by scrolls, potions or wands, or even crafted by any means.

Hard agree that True Strike potions need some kind of balancing. If you're playing a dex build, you simply cannot engage with a high DPS character that is chugging true strikes 24/7. It's not so much the mechanics of them that is the problem, but that they are incredibly cheap and easy to acquire and that it becomes a one click approach to PvP that ends up just being laughable. If someone decides to chug a potion as you are trying to engage, it's basically game over if you stand there and try to tank the damage from a STR char. When a single potion is being relied upon to skew the numbers that badly, it begins to stand out very obviously as an outlier & not only that, there are builds out there that rely entirely upon the facilitation of using true strike potions simply to function as a viable build - which is fine, I'm all for build diversity, but many of these have directly lead to nerfs/reductions in classes combinations that have axed much more variety than they have provided by existing.

A few years back, the dex meta was real, but Arelith is a completely different game to back then. We have new iterations of classes that are visibly more powerful than what existed in a melee sense back then. Spellswords, Paladins, instant attack abilities - the removal of divine synergy with monk dips - much stronger summons - reworked warlocks that can hit any AC with their touch blasts etc etc.

True Strike potions are a hangover from a period when the dex meta had very few counters outside of hellball/gruin - but that simply isn't the case today. There's plenty of builds, spells and combinations now that can trouble even the highest AC dexxers.

I think at least placing them on the "thirst meter" would at least make sense. You chug 5 heal potions and you're struggling, but you can chug 50 true strikes and be fine. If anything I think most potions, if not all should be incorporated into the thirst meter in some way (obviously with scaling amounts to balance it). Bringing in a rule for heal potions, but not having that rule apply to anything else potion based makes very little contextual sense, or balancing sense.

At least then, using something like true strike would be tactical/timed and not simply just a one dimensional approach of "just do it 24/7" every-time a fight breaks out. Because let's not forget that things like true strike - whirlwind exists - you aren't that restricted on your chase potential on many builds that rely on them and when you only need 2-3 good big hits to remove someone from the fight, they simply become a crutch for many builds - just like sanctuary pots before them. Let's keep in mind also, it's a level 1 spell that has a huge effec on the mechanics of both PvE and PvP.

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am So let's get a True Strike -mageddon. Arelith has never shied away from trying out new, sometimes radical solutions. But it always gets adjusted and tweaked, most of the time for the better.

I agree that a D&D game like NWN should feel like we're rolling dice, and not like the pseudo-action, exploitable game it feels like right now.

Says the people who weren't afflicted by Loremageddon though, no?

I prefer to avoid changes that remove diversity; I think a bigger problem on Arelith is the lack of archers, battle clerics, and wizards right now. Archers would be worse off without true strike.

I am not sure the changes to the save system had the intended effect on caster populations.

dominantdrowess wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:13 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am Archers would be worse off without true strike.

I am not sure the changes to the save system had the intended effect on caster populations.

?

Arcane Archers get some of the highest AB on the server without any windup.

And yet they're still non-functional and very few play them now. Even the Black Archers aren't archers anymore, and nobody uses the drow crossbows.

AnselHoenheim wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:04 pm Just give True strike the same treatment as Divine power or Holy sword, it can't be used by scrolls, potions or wands, or even crafted by any means.

The problem with this, is that again, the AFK-Champions with 76 AC stand there, AFK and automatically win. Even the instant-strike system is broken with regards to Epic Dodge, because there's no way to make them interact with epic dodge-- so Epic Dodge can dodge Smite evil -and- your auto attacks in the same round. If True Strike is removed? Epic Dodge itself would have to go -- and I don't think dex builds, mathematically, can survive that.

There is also a huge discrepancy between dex builds in dueling (where they lose the element of surprise, true-strike potions are common, etc.) and in a crazy melee combat where 4 people pile on a dexer because their team is already dead.

I think it is a bad idea to try to make PvP more like PvE. Trying to encourage players to stand there like mindless dummies to be hit.

To get what you're asking for in a balanced way, you'd have to change the core foundations of how NWN's flurry-system works, and I feel like that's probably unhealthy for a NWN's server to do...

...

... unless maybe we-- made it so ALL attacks are instant strikes? So that way everything is hard-coded to an Arelith specific balance.. Huh. Thinking. It would basically be like parry mode being on all the time, but you have to hit an active attack button for actions the same way spells work.

But that is like-- a BIG change. But it would be very easy to hardcore effects and balance -- and interactions with true strike, or Epic Dodge and feats into that comparatively, as well as unclutter the action queue.

But that would be doing something very different from what Arelith has done up until now; but would certainly make it more D&D-like.

The only problem I have with this, is when you do this stuff, you make running away less effective because the game is now balanced around NOT using powerups or having much notice for this stuff. You can SEE a true strike go off... but now? Since it's just a move on someone's "real time turn"... PvP ends up MORE shot-gunny and surprise-y.

Sounds like AC on some builds is simply to high

Nobs wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:22 am Sounds like AC on some builds is simply to high

The thing is it isnt. The livelords with the ridiculous AC are really inefficient builds. You either never lose and never win or you get dunked by some lucky crits and lose insta. Those builds AC is not even balanced around true strike, it's balanced around the 54 ab and 250+ damage crits some melees reach these days. This is why nerfing livelord builds AC in order to then remove true strike is really not the answer here.

I reiterate that the best course of action would be to simply treat true strike as alcoholic to prevent spam.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:35 am

Nobs wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:22 am Sounds like AC on some builds is simply to high

The thing is it isnt. The livelords with the ridiculous AC are really inefficient builds. You either never lose and never win or you get dunked by some lucky crits and lose insta. Those builds AC is not even balanced around true strike, it's balanced around the 54 ab some melees reach these days. This is why nerfing livelord builds AC in order to then remove true strike is really not the answer here.

I reiterate that the best course of action would be to simply treat true strike as alcoholic to prevent spam.

Uh. Don't mean to troll or derail, but can you explain 'livelord' to me? I feel so old.

Hazard wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:37 am explain 'livelord'

Livelord is a build that has it all banked on defense and has little to no damage as a result. It's a build focused on living rather than killing. Those builds are not threatening to your average meta build these days ever since the dex meta died.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:35 am

Nobs wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:22 am Sounds like AC on some builds is simply to high

The thing is it isnt. The livelords with the ridiculous AC are really inefficient builds.

Don't droods get some crazy high AC and offense at the same time?

Dr. B wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:50 am Don't droods get some crazy high AC and offense at the same time?

Oh they get ABSURD stats, but they cant cast spells or use items or scrolls while in shape and that's a pretty big deal. I also dont think their offense is that amazing. They get 3 apr, which turns to 4 with haste but then you either drink 650 gp potions or the cheap ones with just 5 rounds of haste. You also get a very long and effective Sprint so you dont really need haste for the movement or the casting or even the ac since your dodge is capped already, so you just live with 3 apr most of the time. The kill pressure against the really good builds isnt quite there. I'm not going to say druids are weak but at the same time I dont think they are the problem except when they (unironically) spam true strike pots + IKDs with their size bonus. tl;dr I'm pretty sure a big guy with a big axe beats tree in most scenarios.

Dr. B wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:17 pm

dominantdrowess wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:13 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am Archers would be worse off without true strike.

I am not sure the changes to the save system had the intended effect on caster populations.

?

Arcane Archers get some of the highest AB on the server without any windup.

They can barely hit mobs with 80+ AC. Ops warlock can.

Helsing wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:51 am They can barely hit mobs with 80+ AC. Ops warlock can.

Comparing AA and Warlock is like comparing apples and oranges.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:15 pm

dominantdrowess wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:49 pmFor this to work, you'd have to reduce the AC of some classes, which in some nich setups can have upwards of 76 Armor Class in some races, like Genasi Halfling.

I've played builds like this, and STR still wins nearly every time, if it's built competently.

I very much agree with this and all said by TRM. People complain a lot about high AC builds, but honestly, for most of them, that's all they do. They have no kill pressure, all they do is being good at not being one rounded.

Even then, they still lose, because if the Strength build makes a mistake they just take a bit of a beating, if the AC build makes a mistake (such as getting flat-footed), chances are they will be killed.

I am not a particular fan of TS potions, they seem like a cheap solution for something that's not really a problem. What is the high AC build out there that would suddenly be problematic should TS potions suddenly vanish?

Don't nerf Brew Potion

Dr. B wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:17 pm

dominantdrowess wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:13 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:44 am Archers would be worse off without true strike.

I am not sure the changes to the save system had the intended effect on caster populations.

?

Arcane Archers get some of the highest AB on the server without any windup.

I mean there are other archers too, but regardless of the non zen archery build; all archers heavily benefit from truestrike because you can't back away from and just stay out of melee range. It's a good recipe to for stacking called shot penalties and giving a big middle finger to the highest of discipline scores.

That being said, I don't mind the one idea someone came up with of adding sobriety to truestrike. Even just a minute amount.

The other ideas like 'longer duration but less ab bonus' are just trash as truestrikes potions at most only give 15 ab to begin with when there is a soft cap.

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:17 am
The other ideas like 'longer duration but less ab bonus' are just trash

Aw, thanks man, I love you too.

Anyway. The problem with TS pots is that they aren't just used to hit 76 AC builds. They also put ridiculous kill pressure on builds with moderate or even high AC who will be hit on almost every strike unless they run. That's overpowered, especially given the ease of acquiring mass quantities of TS pots. If there's a mouseslip or lag or you get snagged by faulty AI pathfinding, you're dead.

If god-tier AC builds are what make the latter necessary, then there's an argument there for looking at the AC meta, along with epic dodge.

Dr. B wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:34 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:17 am
The other ideas like 'longer duration but less ab bonus' are just trash

Aw, thanks man, I love you too.

Anyway. The problem with TS pots is that they aren't just used to hit 76 AC builds. They also put ridiculous kill pressure on builds with moderate or even high AC who will be hit on almost every strike unless they run. That's overpowered, especially given the ease of acquiring mass quantities of TS pots. If there's a mouseslip or lag or you get snagged by faulty AI pathfinding, you're dead.

If god-tier AC builds are what make the latter necessary, then there's an argument there for looking at the AC meta, along with epic dodge.

I mean I have trash ideas, doesn't mean I am trash. Sorry if you took it that way. I really did not mean that. The reduced AB but longer duration would just make it more OP is what I am trying to say. Like with a plus 5 weapon with no other sources of of soft AB and having a plus 10 instead of 20 would only be 5 less than a normal truestrike potion but longer duration. Longer duration will just force people to run away longer unless the buff towards ab was so little that it wasn't even worth the action economy of using it anymore. Eveng a longer duration but plus 5 ab would be very strong in the hands of classes with already strong offense. Like a 25/5 already hits 7 of their soft ab after second winding, and will be at 12 out of 20 soft ab from a plus 5 potion (not even thinking of other sources like bardsong, etc). To be precise, a race with plus str 25/5 can reach 54 ab on 2nd wind. you add a reduced ab but longer duration truestrike (this was the idea I was calling trash, I don't even remember if you precisely mentioned it.. I saw multipel posts saying lots of things on this thread). And now they might be at 59 ab for more than just a round with a 12-20x 3 crit range. so rolling a mere 12 will hit 71 ac as they whirwind + first flurry you. I am not sure what numbers you had in mind for longer duration, but weaker truestrike buff. But that's what comes to my mind. I apologize if i had not thoroughoully read. Even if we found the perfect number to make them still worth using and not mandatory to use (might be too mandatory with increased duration), I think they would be for the worse. The idea that no one is safe is good imo, there are counters to the things that make you not safe. But I would be all for adding sobriety to truestrike potions so you cant just indefinitely keep gulping them to stop some dexer from approaching you.

Making them harder to acquire just punishing players who have less resources/connections to have an even playing field; they will be still assumed in the meta by the git gud people.

I don't think god-tier ac builds is what make true strikes necessary. I actually think true strikes are not a necessary evil, I think they are a good thing and keeps things interesting. I would support sobriety *edit*

Mouse slips kill you even without truestrike as you can end up flatfooted, etc.

The only thing that makes true strike annoying is true strike itself (the back and forth dance of spacing away from one another). If it was tied to sobriety, it would require more brain to use and people would need to use it in clutch situations, and also it would cost them Heal pots sobriety.

What if TS potions added the AB bonus only to the next attack roll, rather than a time based bonus.