Arelith

MissEvelyn wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:47 am

Why not equalize it for everyone, then? Like this example:

Your highest class level contributes 1:1 towards Dispel CL.
Characters who multi-class take a penalty to their overall Dispel CL. The second-highest class contributes 1/2 class levels towards Dispel CL.
The last class contributes only 1/3 class levels towards Dispel CL.

Numbers could be tweaked for balance, of course

I like this. It would allow for a bit more creativity in builds.

I can't even tell you how many times a creative/intersting build was shot down as useless because it would never hit that critical CL versus Dispell benchmark of 26 or 27 or whatever it is.

That'd have only needlessly nerfed certain builds instead of actually addressing the real issue here.

The actual issue is that ATM non-caster builds get their full character lvl as CL vs dispels while caster builds specifically are being constrained by their highest spellcaster class level for this purpose.
That severly limits their multiclassing options while still yielding suboptimal results unless multiclassing is waived altogether (along with discipline access in most cases). This is unwarranted IMO.

Changing it to flat character level getting used as CL vs dispels for all builds would've been great if possible.

You guys might be missing the forrest for the trees. Take a peek at the druid, cleric and wizard I spell lists and consider being able to cast any of those spells with a 17 level investment and no drawback in terms of cl vs dispel.

It’s not a small deal to change something as intrinsic to the core of the game. If anyone wanted to seriously suggest that this be done they would have to go through literally all those spells and consider how they could be used with 13 other levels t play with (or 15 if all you wanted was 8th level spells, 13 for 7th and so on).

It’s not a casual thing.

Takes wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:53 pm

You guys might be missing the forrest for the trees. Take a peek at the druid, cleric and wizard I spell lists and consider being able to cast any of those spells with a 17 level investment and no drawback in terms of cl vs dispel.

It’s not a small deal to change something as intrinsic to the core of the game. If anyone wanted to seriously suggest that this be done they would have to go through literally all those spells and consider how they could be used with 13 other levels t play with (or 15 if all you wanted was 8th level spells, 13 for 7th and so on).

It’s not a casual thing.

Oof imagine if WMs, Barbs and other strong builds could just get access to any spell at CL 30 vs. dispel? Oh wait… that’s how it is already.

Tongue in cheek reply aside, this is no big deal as most of those spells are not “fight deciders” especially at low caster level (just not vs. dispel) and the ones that are live fairy high on the beach list. Unless we for some reason nerf mords then it becomes a huge problem.

The issue is epic casters being gimped vs. dispel compared to mundanes using pieces of paper (ironically made by the same gimped epic casters). Why should a wm be cl 30 v dispel and not a 27/3 wizard? Literally makes zero sense.

Alternatively if you’re that concerned about a shallow cross class with a caster like Druid move the threshold for full cl vs dispel up to lvl 23 or so.

I can't count the number of times I've had martials try to run away from my level 30 Cleric's buffs because they thought I was a 27/3 like everything else, and thought that me buffing them would make them weaker.

It's kinda silly that it's so engrained into the server now that even level 30 Casters whom sacrifice multiclassing to be harder to dispel still get flack for it.

I agree with alot of people here that it's silly that epic level casters are easier to dispel than mundanes..

Here’s a thought.

We have base attack bonus, yes? Which impacts how well you can physically attack something.

And that is opposed by armor class.

At the moment, spells are (usually) opposed by saves, and (for those who have it) Spell Resistance.

Caster level impacts getting through Spell Resistance.

But, most don’t have Spell Resistance.

And those who don’t want to get (for example) knocked down by a mundane with a sword will need to invest in Armor Class AND Discipline.

Step 1: make Spell Resistance something like AC; everyone has it, and gear can provide additions to it.
Step 2: primary casters (those whose spells go to level 6 or higher) get 1/1 for magical attack bonus, half casters get 0.75/1, and non-casters get 0.5/1. They can spend feats to boost their MAB, with pre-reqs. Their primary spellcasting stat impacts their MAB as well (for non-casters it defaults to int or cha, whichever is higher).
Step 3: spells that just deal damage no longer have saves, those that have crowd control effects would deal damage as well as those crowd control effects and the damage would trigger if they get through the SR, but the effect would not if their target makes the save.
Step 4: spellcraft is changed to only provide bonuses for hard ranks, not soft ranks.
Step 5: skill dumps are made mechanically (almost) impossible; folks can only save a maximum of 1 skill point when levelling.
Step 6: dispelling would be required to breach their spell resistance to have any impact. This gives mundanes a way to try to build to keep their buffs/wards.

Just an idea, but, something like this could definitely help address part of the issue.

Please note that I do not know if this idea is even possible with the NWN engine.

Anomandaris wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:34 pm

Takes wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:53 pm

You guys might be missing the forrest for the trees. Take a peek at the druid, cleric and wizard I spell lists and consider being able to cast any of those spells with a 17 level investment and no drawback in terms of cl vs dispel.

It’s not a small deal to change something as intrinsic to the core of the game. If anyone wanted to seriously suggest that this be done they would have to go through literally all those spells and consider how they could be used with 13 other levels t play with (or 15 if all you wanted was 8th level spells, 13 for 7th and so on).

It’s not a casual thing.

Oof imagine if WMs, Barbs and other strong builds could just get access to any spell at CL 30 vs. dispel? Oh wait… that’s how it is already.

Tongue in cheek reply aside, this is no big deal as most of those spells are not “fight deciders” especially at low caster level (just not vs. dispel) and the ones that are live fairy high on the beach list. Unless we for some reason nerf mords then it becomes a huge problem.

The issue is epic casters being gimped vs. dispel compared to mundanes using pieces of paper (ironically made by the same gimped epic casters). Why should a wm be cl 30 v dispel and not a 27/3 wizard? Literally makes zero sense.

Alternatively if you’re that concerned about a shallow cross class with a caster like Druid move the threshold for full cl vs dispel up to lvl 23 or so.

The 'fight deciders' are actually simple things, like having your haste last 3+ minutes, rather than 1 minute, or having divine power/favor, magic vestments.... Put these things on a weapon master and it really changes the whole game inside out, and will be hard to balance, will probably take months or even years to return to our resemblance of equilibrium. It's a pretty big can of worms I just dont think any dev wants to open, and for a good reason. This game is all make-belief in it's core. Should be easy to come up with some rando IC reason for why caster's magic isnt as reliable as a potion or a wand. It doesnt really matter.

Not really?

Mass produced store bought potions that are weaker in effect than the magic an epic spellcaster can cast should never had any reason to be better and more resilient than a level 27 spellcaster.

That's really a completely different topic though, but there is literally no plausible situation that a CL 3 bull strength potion is better than a CL 27 bull strength cast be a wizard when it comes to being dispelled.

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:50 am

Anomandaris wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:34 pm

Takes wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:53 pm

You guys might be missing the forrest for the trees. Take a peek at the druid, cleric and wizard I spell lists and consider being able to cast any of those spells with a 17 level investment and no drawback in terms of cl vs dispel.

It’s not a small deal to change something as intrinsic to the core of the game. If anyone wanted to seriously suggest that this be done they would have to go through literally all those spells and consider how they could be used with 13 other levels t play with (or 15 if all you wanted was 8th level spells, 13 for 7th and so on).

It’s not a casual thing.

Oof imagine if WMs, Barbs and other strong builds could just get access to any spell at CL 30 vs. dispel? Oh wait… that’s how it is already.

Tongue in cheek reply aside, this is no big deal as most of those spells are not “fight deciders” especially at low caster level (just not vs. dispel) and the ones that are live fairy high on the beach list. Unless we for some reason nerf mords then it becomes a huge problem.

The issue is epic casters being gimped vs. dispel compared to mundanes using pieces of paper (ironically made by the same gimped epic casters). Why should a wm be cl 30 v dispel and not a 27/3 wizard? Literally makes zero sense.

Alternatively if you’re that concerned about a shallow cross class with a caster like Druid move the threshold for full cl vs dispel up to lvl 23 or so.

The 'fight deciders' are actually simple things, like having your haste last 3+ minutes, rather than 1 minute, or having divine power/favor, magic vestments.... Put these things on a weapon master and it really changes the whole game inside out, and will be hard to balance, will probably take months or even years to return to our resemblance of equilibrium. It's a pretty big can of worms I just dont think any dev wants to open, and for a good reason. This game is all make-belief in it's core. Should be easy to come up with some rando IC reason for why caster's magic isnt as reliable as a potion or a wand. It doesnt really matter.

Again, not caster level, caster level vs dispel. So it would not affect duration or potency.

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:50 am

Anomandaris wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:34 pm

Takes wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:53 pm

You guys might be missing the forrest for the trees. Take a peek at the druid, cleric and wizard I spell lists and consider being able to cast any of those spells with a 17 level investment and no drawback in terms of cl vs dispel.

It’s not a small deal to change something as intrinsic to the core of the game. If anyone wanted to seriously suggest that this be done they would have to go through literally all those spells and consider how they could be used with 13 other levels t play with (or 15 if all you wanted was 8th level spells, 13 for 7th and so on).

It’s not a casual thing.

Oof imagine if WMs, Barbs and other strong builds could just get access to any spell at CL 30 vs. dispel? Oh wait… that’s how it is already.

Tongue in cheek reply aside, this is no big deal as most of those spells are not “fight deciders” especially at low caster level (just not vs. dispel) and the ones that are live fairy high on the beach list. Unless we for some reason nerf mords then it becomes a huge problem.

The issue is epic casters being gimped vs. dispel compared to mundanes using pieces of paper (ironically made by the same gimped epic casters). Why should a wm be cl 30 v dispel and not a 27/3 wizard? Literally makes zero sense.

Alternatively if you’re that concerned about a shallow cross class with a caster like Druid move the threshold for full cl vs dispel up to lvl 23 or so.

The 'fight deciders' are actually simple things, like having your haste last 3+ minutes, rather than 1 minute, or having divine power/favor, magic vestments.... Put these things on a weapon master and it really changes the whole game inside out, and will be hard to balance, will probably take months or even years to return to our resemblance of equilibrium. It's a pretty big can of worms I just dont think any dev wants to open, and for a good reason. This game is all make-belief in it's core. Should be easy to come up with some rando IC reason for why caster's magic isnt as reliable as a potion or a wand. It doesnt really matter.

... spellsword.
you are talking about spellsword, which already exists and is designed around exactly what you're worried about.

Anomandaris wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:07 am

Again, not caster level, caster level vs dispel. So it would not affect duration or potency.

I meant caster level against dispel being 30, and actual caster level being around 17. So yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

solar separation wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:06 am

... spellsword.
you are talking about spellsword, which already exists and is designed around exactly what you're worried about.

Can you go 21 ss 4 fighter 5 wm and have 30 CL vs dispels? No, you cannot. So what I am talking about does not exist.

So for a 17th level caster haste would last 102 seconds, that's 22 more seconds than a player made haste potion. A 21st level caster would have double haste duration compared to what a mundane can get from potions. This is significant.

Summons is another can of worms. As are meta magic feats for 3 and 4 stat builds. Time Stop. Acid Sheath. Spell Resistance.

Bards that do not use spells and only song is very strong. Bard/FTR/BG or Pally with no concern for CL would be pretty extreme.

Pally/FTR/WM is a concern.

This is just off the top of my head as I'm drinking coffee before work. That is why I say that this is a pretty big deal that would require looking at every single spell, every single class combo and making a whole range of specific rules like 'if character is X level, then Y is disabled'.

There are ways to do this, but it's just not a casual thing. It would be a tremendous amount of work.

Once again, it seems like the only wrench in the entire notion is the Cleric with its roster of well known balance offenders - div favor, div power and magic vestment.

This tweak would have been absolutely fine with regards to arcane spellcasters - both wiz and sorc have low BAB progression = good luck coming up with a viable WM build that sports 17 wizard levels.

Similarly, the overwhelming majority of any buffs that a melee build could have gained from taking something like 17 spellcaster levels are already accessible to them through consumables - such option would have only alleviated the so often criticised operating costs of melee builds.

Summons scale depending on the actual spellcaster level (even mummy dust requires a minimum of 21 spellcaster or 10 dirgsinger lvls). Tweaking CL vs dispel calculations wouldn't have affected this whatsoever.

Rewieving the three offending cleric spells (div favor/magic vestment granting a +1 bonus for each 6 cleric lvls instead of 3 for example) might still make this proposition viable and something worth considering IMO

Nah cleric is not the only offender. There's also bard, ranger, paladin, hexblade and spellsword. That's a lot of classes to suddenly slap WM on and still use long duration hastes, or even things like warcry, aid, holy sword, blade thirst, and probably other things I'm missing... overall it really isnt centered around divine power casters. It also isnt just about slapping wm on everything, while it's the most obvious go-to class to abuse such interactions.