Arelith

I do like the idea of a longer transition so it's not so sudden but calling it rpless pvp is pushing it. The player has no control, and therefore it becomes pve. That being said a longer transition is going to require a script, which is means a larger workload on the server, but it's probably worth it if it can be written clean.

As for the rest of the thread, while I think aspects of it can be improved like letting people app to start with the curse and if possible giving people the capacity to roleplay while not having control over the mechanics of the toon would be nice, I would think that frenzy is why someone would want to play a wereX. I'm not one of those people, so maybe I have it wrong, but to me I think that aspect of it is what would make it appealing.

And I know for a fact that people have played cursed with lycan stuffs characters for a long time with the parameters that are already in place, so I find it hard to believe that this is one of those things that suffocates roleplay.

Add it as an epic feat option for druids, and maybe as a domain power for malarite priests.

As for the Lycanthropy curse, along with dragging out the transformation, throw in some generic transformation indicators for the infected character to emote that something is up. Begins to twitch, grows fur on ears.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:07 pm

I do like the idea of a longer transition so it's not so sudden but calling it rpless pvp is pushing it. The player has no control, and therefore it becomes pve. That being said a longer transition is going to require a script, which is means a larger workload on the server, but it's probably worth it if it can be written clean.

As for the rest of the thread, while I think aspects of it can be improved like letting people app to start with the curse and if possible giving people the capacity to roleplay while not having control over the mechanics of the toon would be nice, I would think that frenzy is why someone would want to play a wereX. I'm not one of those people, so maybe I have it wrong, but to me I think that aspect of it is what would make it appealing.

And I know for a fact that people have played cursed with lycan stuffs characters for a long time with the parameters that are already in place, so I find it hard to believe that this is one of those things that suffocates roleplay.

it only suffocates rp'ing with someone else, that also isnt a werewolf, in-shape..without going on a rampage and having to be put down, bit difficult to rp in-shape with someone for any length of time when the current system is rolling checks every six seconds and the check increases each time until you fail it. Can you build a character to slightly work with the current system? Yes, i can build a character with high base will saves then take high wisdom+ go all in on will saves in feats but then you end up with a completely screwed character that cant /do/ any content just so you can actually rp in-form. Just to re-iterate, the current system is constantly tossing checks at you every six seconds and those checks increase in difficulty until you fail it then once you fail it you then roll to regain control. If the current system is genuinely put in place to just curtail furries from being 'frisky' then ban the furries when they act stupid and let those of us that actually want to rp an idea..rp the idea.

I think the point of the penalties and will save rampage is "lycanthropy is a curse". It shouldn't be fun or at a point where you can "solve" the problem and more or less ignore the negative side effects. It's supposed to be inconvenient because that's what a werewolf is.

silverpheonix wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:55 pm

I think the point of the penalties and will save rampage is "lycanthropy is a curse". It shouldn't be fun or at a point where you can "solve" the problem and more or less ignore the negative side effects. It's supposed to be inconvenient because that's what a werewolf is.

vampirism is also a curse

Honestly, you could 'fix' lycanthropy has it stands by just:
Keeping the current system in place for the 'afflicted' lycan
Introducing a reward that allows starting has a true lycan
Police the true lycans for sexy elven fun times, same has any other race

Kenku a few years back was a hard 'no' then they got added and peeps have done a pretty good job imo of rp'ing the race,why not try true lycans. and yes if people are stupid and sexy elven fun times with true lycans give them a bop with the ban hammer.

Player lycanthrope could just be a major reward (your choice of wolf-rat-whatever) and they could inflict the curse on other PCs instead of it coming from NPCs... similar to how vampires have thralls (though with less control over their cursed).

Azensor wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:01 pm

silverpheonix wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:55 pm

I think the point of the penalties and will save rampage is "lycanthropy is a curse". It shouldn't be fun or at a point where you can "solve" the problem and more or less ignore the negative side effects. It's supposed to be inconvenient because that's what a werewolf is.

vampirism is also a curse

Honestly, you could 'fix' lycanthropy has it stands by just:
Keeping the current system in place for the 'afflicted' lycan
Introducing a reward that allows starting has a true lycan
Police the true lycans for sexy elven fun times, same has any other race

Kenku a few years back was a hard 'no' then they got added and peeps have done a pretty good job imo of rp'ing the race,why not try true lycans. and yes if people are stupid and sexy elven fun times with true lycans give them a bop with the ban hammer.

Yeah but vampires are traditionally depicted as cold, calculating beings of manipulation and control.

Werewolves are not. At all.

There’s more than just werewolves now though. The other types got added with zero consideration of the lore behind each type really.

I like the idea of lycanthropy as a curse, but I wish there was a way to make it so that you only roll against frenzy when you move or attack, and after a kill you get a randomized period of a few minutes of control since your bloodlust is satisfied.

It would open up a lot more options for RP, and allow the cursed to flee after doing some damage, instead of absolutely always being gangbeat and force fed wolfsbane within two minutes of shifting.

As a curse, it should be bad enough that it doesn't allow for a normal life, but not so bad that the only possible option anyone can think of is death. Even paralysis doesn't work, because it's only delaying the inevitable.

I am a huge fan of were-creature lore. I've even DM'd a game around it and built so many of them in 3.5, so I would like to start off by saying the only reason I have avoided intentionally getting the curse on Arelith is because it is quite a time commitment to get infected with underwhelming RP around it (Everyone is just force fed the cure right away). I think GrumpyCat had a wonderful idea of making were-creatures an award, but if that was done lots of other QOL things could change as well, for example:

1) Keep the curse version as is, make the form even deadlier but slow down the will save to lose control. Perhaps 1/round is too much and make it 1/turn, but have the DC increase each save. When you lose control, people should die. The beasts should be terrifying. RP and mechanics should reflect each other.

2) FOIG methods of curing the disease are way to easy. It is a curse after all, so make it actually respect the new curse system. Remove curse should work on it, but add behind the scene modifiers that alter the success rate. With that slightly modify the current cure by adding a new herbalism potion that has a high chance of curing but requires the current cure to make, with probably a freshness bit to it. This makes is harder to cure, adding more wait, and requires you to find things or people able to do so.

3) Add a reward lycan (evil Lycan's only for this to really work). Reward lycans cannot be cured, but also wouldn't suffer rage problems (or maybe only during the full moon). They get a weaker form they can turn into off the full moon, but get to keep the diseased stronger form during the full moon. Also, PC lycans should be able to spread the curse via their attacks, like the NPCs, but also, for RP purposes, can guarantee to inflict it on another player, with the other player's consent, similar to vamps.

I think it would be really cool to see packs of lycans form, or secret malarites trying to spread the disease with their 'gift'. As it stands now, as someone who loves lycanthropes and lycanthrope lore, I find the current systems just so underwhelming that I would rather spend my time and effort building other types of stories.

Make it so the DC (or however it works) to remove the Lycanthropy curse via Remove Curse increases dramatically after their first full moon. When they frenzy, add a script that checks if surrounding PCs have the curse and only hostile the uninfected.

Another idea is expanding the range of things the lycanthrope won't auto-frenzy at. At the moment they won't frenzy at another of the same lycanthrope type in the party, maybe that could also include priests of Malar, gift of devotion Malarites, rangers of Malar, druids of Malar, maybe Selune also, non-alive things like vampires. At least that gives some options where RP can be extended?

A timer before frenzy with indicators that the frenzy will occur still seems like the best way to do it when interacting with PCs.

I think either making it less awful to control or making a reward race like vampire would work best with it. Lycanthropes are a cool and popular monster in D&D with great potential for conflict and antagonism like vampire provides. If there is concern about cringeworthy RP that is what enforcement of the setting is for in the first place.

The auto-frenzy is definitely just anti-RP and like there were past examples of druids or animal-adjacent races acting in an immersion breaking sense it should be punished case by case. Far as I know there hasn't been recent issues with druids, kenku, rakshasa, gnolls, or kobolds given concerns for furries. Far as I am concerned you can fetishize elves or halflings and it has happened before and rules enforcement is the solution. It would be cool to have for Malarites and Selunites as stated above able to potentially help with the frenzy as an option. Like vampires they wouldn't be permitted to live in most settlements due to their unstable nature.

Hm, i will share my perspective on how I would see playing the Lycan.

From the start i would make it lore-friendly so the born lycans can control when they shift into the animal-form.

Infected werewolves transform during the full moon involuntarily. Members of their race that are born with the curse can infect others and can control their shifting.
Source: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Werewolf

Wouldnt make it alignment-locked into evil as - again - we have neutral and good ones that will surely find their own places to thrive.
If someone is not aware:
Good aligned lycans: Swanmay (Any good), Wereowl (wrowl) (NG) and Wereravens (LG)

The frenzy itself its a tricky one. Currently as we all agree its a quite underwhelming experience, and should be changed one way or another. In my opinion the frenzy could be non-avoidable only during full-moons. If someone wants to avoid it entirely its just a 1 IRL hour sit-down offline or away from people. It would be a reasonable middle-ground between those wanting it to be a bad thing and those who dislike the idea of losing control and attacking people at random. During other moons it could have a DC save dependent from moon phase but without nat 1 failure as 5% chance is quite a lot if we roll it every 6 seconds or even minute.

The infected ones could have +X DC to losing control because they lack experience in controlling the curse. And the cure itself should be harder to aquire. I actually really like Darkstorn's idea of the cure:

2) FOIG methods of curing the disease are way to easy. It is a curse after all, so make it actually respect the new curse system. Remove curse should work on it, but add behind the scene modifiers that alter the success rate. With that slightly modify the current cure by adding a new herbalism potion that has a high chance of curing but requires the current cure to make, with probably a freshness bit to it. This makes is harder to cure, adding more wait, and requires you to find things or people able to do so.

As for the sexualization problem, it can come with any other race. And if it does happen team is quick to react.

The sexualization of lycanthropy is a silly concern.

If someone sexualizes lycanthropy and turns it into weird fetish roleplay, eject them from the community.

Ita the same solution applied to people who get too juicy over tieflings, elves, halflings, genasi, gnolls, or minotaur. If that solution is insufficient for lycanthropes, then the policy and solution for being horny about any races needs to be reexamine.

Regarding the current system, it sucks. It has been this way through all of its minor variations since I've been here, even predating the current administration.

The argument that it's supposed to be a bad thing doesn't hold water. Statistical debuffs from disease, hunger, thirst, are bad things. We say lycanthropy is a curse, it's not supposed to good. But actual curses mechanically represented in the system (such as bestow curse) provide a malus without removing control of your character for an indeterminate amount of time.

Removing the ability for a player to control their character for more than a few seconds should only be used as an out of character punishment, ie a ban or character deletion.

Lycanthropy sucks because it's a random lottery where the prize is losing the ability to take actions for 20 minutes. Lycanthropy sucks because it forces characters to take actions that are so disruptive to the environment that we have ooc rules regulating them, but gets a free pass because weve had to make exceptions for that system. Lycanthropy sucks because a thematically similar curse, vampirism, provides benefits and operates in completely different way that doesn't remove agency (and is apparently so fun it has a months long waitlist even after being locked behind big boy awards). Lycanthropy sucks because the cure for it plays like a routine errand - going to the not so secret place(s) to gnosh on a loot item is as engaging as going to the market to get milk and eggs. You even get to wait in a checkout line while the item spawns but you can't chat with the checker because it's a container fixture and no rp that could be done during that wait is better served by occurring in thst location than any other place.

Don't remove player control of characters, remove lycanthropys current implementation as a system that encourages people to get up and get a coffee instead of playing the game.

I honestly cannot take any suggestion that because furries exist that werewolves have to be trash seriously. It's about as big as joke as dealing with werewolves are at the moment. You get 10 seconds of "what is going on?" before everyone and their mother is curb stomping the guy and force feeding him wolfsbane. If it's going to remain trash, please just remove it, because its comically bad and does not add anything to the server.
This thread is full of good solutions. Let's not have pointlessly bad content and refuse to fix it, if its deemed to remain bad, we dont need to have it at all.

Our current iteration of lycanthropy covers only one form of lycanthropes, which is the LE Werewolf. Another thing to keep in mind is that Arelith's Lycanthropy is coded from a long time ago when the mechanics wasn't as well defined and thought out as they are now.

The LE alignment is enforced through the lack of control from the player if failing the save, and thus hostiling and attacking anyone in the vicinity while transformed. The werewolf is the staple lycanthrope form. And most of all, it's afflicted only (to be elaborated further).

So, it's missing the following:

1. Differentiation between humanoid, animal, and hybrid form
2. Other lycanthrope forms such as LG Werebear, LE Wererat, and neutral Wereboars/Weretigers
3. Natural Lycanthropes (birth) vs Afflicted Lycanthropes (disease) vs Cursed Lycanthropes (maledictive)

We should consider doing the following if we are to do a Lycanthrope Overhaul (I dub it the Furries Summer):

• Forms
  • Werewolf (CE) - high str and unarmed damage
  • Werebear (LG) - high con and DR/DI
  • Wererat (LE) - high hide/MS, sneak attack (1/3 lvl)
  • Weretiger (N) - high dex AC, sneak attack (1/2 lvl)
• Types
  • Natural Lycanthropes - gated behind major rewards and DM application and can transform at will, strongest (better scaling) of the three (optimal). There will likely be alignment and/or deity restrictions based on the choices
  • Cursed Lycanthropes - can only be obtained through in-game Ritual or DM events, same way for cures, baseline stats for all 3 (viable)
  • Afflicted Lycanthropes - obtained through being wounded by a lycanthrope, either PC or NPC, weakest of all 3, can be cured by Cure Disease or Greater Restoration. No access to Hybrid form.

Hybrid form would be model-wise similar to Rakshasa or Hound Archon/Warden Archon with player character's head replaced by an animal's head or something, with a boost to stats and AB/AC/dmg while being vulnerable to certain things like silver weapons or moon-related spells.

A lot of the mechanics will require further details and discussions, but this should be a good framework to start out with.

I think you should probably double check what the current system is.

It includes werewolves (always CE), wererats (always LE), wereboars (always neutral), werecats (always chaotic good, though what we have is probably more like werepanthers than werecats). Probably also worth double-checking the Monster Manuals for 3.5 to get accurate info on them in the setting. Werebats and some other NE ones were included in the Monster Compendium for FR specific ones too.