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I'd shoot for fully realising the class NWN shifter is based on:
https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-many-forms/
I think that they should get access to every possible form as part of progression. I'd also give them the rakashasa race change ability.
I also suggest removing undead and constructs outright. They don't make sense for a class based on a spiritual understanding of all life.
The Vandals of Rome wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:11 amI'd shoot for fully realising the class NWN shifter is based on:
https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-many-forms/
I think that they should get access to every possible form as part of progression. I'd also give them the rakashasa race change ability.
I also suggest removing undead and constructs outright. They don't make sense for a class based on a spiritual understanding of all life.
It doesn’t, you’re right, but they’re also presently offering the strongest forms one can take; as such, I feel you’d have to offer some sort of meaningful alternative — elemental and plant shape won’t quite cut the mustard here, since if you’re relying on that, why not just play a Druid?
The Vandals of Rome wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:11 amI'd shoot for fully realising the class NWN shifter is based on:
https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-many-forms/
I think that they should get access to every possible form as part of progression. I'd also give them the rakashasa race change ability.
I also suggest removing undead and constructs outright. They don't make sense for a class based on a spiritual understanding of all life.
I think the construct and undeath forms make sense from the perspective of understanding life by exploring and understanding shapes devoid of life or filled with its opposite, particularly if you are exploring it as shape changing while moving away from the likely Druidic origins of the practice.
I'd love to see Shifter basically redesigned with the following rough outlook:
Wildshape(WS) - As druid (should be expanded to more animals IMO)
Gr WS1 - All wyrmlings sharing an appropriate AC/HP pool, skills/AB bonuses depending on the type. e.g. Red/White might be aggressive, Green/Blue defensive, Black utility.
Gr WS2 - Minotaur aggressive, Gargoyle Defensive, Harpy Utility
(continue for the rest)
Epic shapes could probably be retouched. Undead shapes are appropriate for shifter because warlock unlocks the shifter class. You've got both a druid path into shifter (where undead shouldn't really be appropriate), and the warlock path (where there's no problem with undead).
Gaining the Rakshasa's ability would be ideal for shifters, however... What is there for Rakshasa? They've already been nerfed below what they should be in the setting. Their whole thing is this ability and building 100% into bluff/perform mechanics.
If we wanted to give Shifters more powerful Shape abilties they could have a system similar to Invokers, where they have a "Stamina" resource for using abilities while shifted that would regenerate over time. I dunno how specific the system can be but certain shapes could recover it at different speeds, with unshifted being the fastest. So things like the Basalisks Petrifying Gaze wcould cost X Stamina, so the DC could be cranked up to make it actually useful but not rapidly spamable.
The Vandals of Rome wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:11 amI'd shoot for fully realising the class NWN shifter is based on:
https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-many-forms/
I think that they should get access to every possible form as part of progression. I'd also give them the rakashasa race change ability.
I also suggest removing undead and constructs outright. They don't make sense for a class based on a spiritual understanding of all life.
It's actually based on the Shifter PrC from Masters of the Wild, which predates this by actual years. Not to mention that entry is just a copy and paste of Shifter minus the teeth. But yes, we are looking to keep it true to the books. At least I am.
Also Shifter is about understanding everything that has a shape, not just living shapes.
Second Breakfast wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 3:42 amI am presently trying out a Shifter now.
My big concern is that when a class becomes 'the new meta' or is even thought to be brought up to parity with other classes, doors are closed for those who want as many cookies to further roleplay as possible and do not really care about the class' overall power.
To wit, my character is a Warlock/Shifter/Loremaster, the conceit being I can send images with my shifted forms easily and also be something of an infiltrator given I know the languages of whomever or whatever I am pretending to be. Is it a gimmick? Yes, but I'd much rather play gimmicks than some streamlined class designed to be highly competitive in PvP, where multiclassing is discouraged because the capstone requires 20 shifter or something.
The "gimmick" aspect won't be taken away. If anything you'll have more to mess with, and they'll be actually useful. I'm sure you're aware of the pretty terrible leveling experience, given your class choices. That is something I'm trying to alleviate, and give the class the actual depth it deserves to have.
Kythana wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 5:15 amThe app is unlikely to be removed.
Why, exactly? What is it about the class that requires it?
It's to ensure people play the concept properly instead of using it to play as something they're not. The application will not be removed, nor was it ever really on the table.
I apologise if I come off as harsh, wanting to nip things in the bud.
It's to ensure people play the concept properly instead of using it to play as something they're not. The application will not be removed, nor was it ever really on the table.
If the concept is the problem, then why not rework it if it's being overhauled anyways? Or, alternatively, decouple the problematic portions of the concept away behind an app.
In the suggested rework, for example, there are feats that unlock certain types of shapes. Why not permit normal shifters with a limited set of shapes, and specific ones require applications?
We already have shapeshifting as a class feature with druid, which is free to take. Beyond that, high level spells that allow for shapechange, or even low levels one that can be put on wands or scrolls, so it doesn't really seem like the concept of changing your shape in general is outlandish.
Kythana wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:50 pmIt's to ensure people play the concept properly instead of using it to play as something they're not. The application will not be removed, nor was it ever really on the table.
If the concept is the problem, then why not rework it if it's being overhauled anyways? Or, alternatively, decouple the problematic portions of the concept away behind an app.
In the suggested rework, for example, there are feats that unlock certain types of shapes. Why not permit normal shifters with a limited set of shapes, and specific ones require applications?
We already have shapeshifting as a class feature with druid, which is free to take. Beyond that, high level spells that allow for shapechange, or even low levels one that can be put on wands or scrolls, so it doesn't really seem like the concept of changing your shape in general is outlandish.
+1
Kythana wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:50 pmIt's to ensure people play the concept properly instead of using it to play as something they're not. The application will not be removed, nor was it ever really on the table.
If the concept is the problem, then why not rework it if it's being overhauled anyways? Or, alternatively, decouple the problematic portions of the concept away behind an app.
In the suggested rework, for example, there are feats that unlock certain types of shapes. Why not permit normal shifters with a limited set of shapes, and specific ones require applications?
We already have shapeshifting as a class feature with druid, which is free to take. Beyond that, high level spells that allow for shapechange, or even low levels one that can be put on wands or scrolls, so it doesn't really seem like the concept of changing your shape in general is outlandish.
You answer yourself here.
Druids are the entry level shifters, which have already been regulated - see: plantshape - and, if people get too funky playing lapcats, will probably get regulated once more.
There's no "problematic portion"; the whole concept of the class is about being able to take any shape, in its essence and in line of the expectations of Arelith, the entire concept of a shifter is problematic.
In other words, without a massive shift from admin mentality and expectation of the game, the application will remain.
It may, however, be on the table to change the award cost.
While Shifter is being worked on can Fey'ri get their alterself power as well?
Alter self (Sp): Fey’ri can use alter self at will to assume any humanoid form, and can remain in that form indefinitely.
That is from Races of Faerun page 119.
Druids are the entry level shifters, which have already been regulated - see: plantshape - and, if people get too funky playing lapcats, will probably get regulated once more.
Plantshape, Animal Shape + Totem, Elemental Shape, Shapechange to include: Red Dragon, Fire Giant, Balor, Death Slaad, or Iron Golem.
While not available for druids, but wandable/scrollable, you have Polymorph Self to include: Giant Spider, Troll, Umber Hulk, Pixie and Zombie.
And beyond that, there is also baleful polymorph for a few other options.
Beyond the changing of Dragonshape to Plantshape, I don't really see the regulation here. And even then, Shapechange still lets you access to a dragon form.
There's no "problematic portion"; the whole concept of the class is about being able to take any shape, in its essence and in line of the expectations of Arelith, the entire concept of a shifter is problematic.
If taking any shape is the portion that's problematic, then, as I already mentioned, why not decouple that? Why not have shifter available as an existing class available for everyone, with a very limited set of shapes, and an application would open it up to more?
If, for example, non-application shifter only permitted the exact same shapechanges that a druid could do, but with the new mechanical benefits of the rework, would there really be any issue with that? And an application would grant them access to whatever the remaining shapes are, giving them the same combat ability, but with extra tools for RP.
It may, however, be on the table to change the award cost.
Unless you mean to say that it will be costing an award in the future, it already doesn't cost an award.
Let's be realistic here, someone can get away with almost anything as a druid and DMs won't really push you to stay true to the setting. Shifters aren't any different other than there isn't really a standard of how they should be portrayed on the server.
What's the problematic stuff?
Dreams wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:21 amLet's be realistic here, someone can get away with almost anything as a druid and DMs won't really push you to stay true to the setting. Shifters aren't any different other than there isn't really a standard of how they should be portrayed on the server.
What's the problematic stuff?
Agreed
TBH I find druid to be one of the most irritating NWN classes.
It's not related to mechanics or RP - it's their oversized shape sprites and overall "blob of 6 bodies" routine that can seriously interfere with targetting.
Maybe something to consider if/when shifter gets some attention.
Kythana wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:50 pmIt's to ensure people play the concept properly instead of using it to play as something they're not. The application will not be removed, nor was it ever really on the table.
If the concept is the problem, then why not rework it if it's being overhauled anyways? Or, alternatively, decouple the problematic portions of the concept away behind an app.
In the suggested rework, for example, there are feats that unlock certain types of shapes. Why not permit normal shifters with a limited set of shapes, and specific ones require applications?
We already have shapeshifting as a class feature with druid, which is free to take. Beyond that, high level spells that allow for shapechange, or even low levels one that can be put on wands or scrolls, so it doesn't really seem like the concept of changing your shape in general is outlandish.
the concept isn't the problem
it's quality that's a concern - as has been seen with the case of things like fey'ri
i'm not splitting the shifter class into more applications or anything else, nor am i going to suggest that
that's a PITA and a waste of time
druids are also not the same thing as a shifter
also i'm gonna address the 'while you're working on shifter can you do x' - i'm not doing that, i don't think anyone else is going to go off of that currently either
make separate suggestions for separate classes, races, etc please. because it won't be tracked here. this is solely to see if there's anything worth adding to the shifter rework pitch. for shifter. the class. shifter.
i also never wanted shifter to cost an award, and that will not be included in the pitch.
the concept isn't the problem
it's quality that's a concern - as has been seen with the case of things like fey'ri
I don't find this to be true. The concept and the quality go hand in hand.
You use Fey'ri as an example, but the low quality is only so striking because of the concept. Because it's an elf, with a demonic connotation(and ties to succubi), with a command that lets you have wings on the fly, there's no question on how this would get abused.
I fail to see the same with shifter.
For something like Harper/Zhent/Assassin, I can at least see the implication in that they can influence the setting through their unique abilities like offing settlement leaders for assassins, voting in every settlement + base for harper/zhent.
Shifter has nothing like that, and it feels extremely arbitrary.
i'm not splitting the shifter class into more applications or anything else, nor am i going to suggest that
that's a PITA and a waste of time
I never suggested more applications. I suggested moving the application from being able to take the class baseline to unlocking certain shapes. There would still be 1 application.
Why is that a waste of time? It would enable more than 0.1% of the entire population to play a class that likely has a significant non-interest because of being blocked by an application.
Rubricae wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 3:15 pmWe're looking to hear of any issues with current Shifter, ideas for future Shifter, and if there are ideas for band-aid fixes to implement in the mean-time while waiting on the actual overhaul.[/color]
I've done some testing with current shifter and the main problem preventing it from being even remotely usable is that while polymorphed there is no stats from gear.
with warlock 5, shifter 10, barbarian 15, the dire tiger gets 36 AB, and 41 AC. With gear, those numbers would be in the mid 50s both. Without that, PVP is a dream, and PVE is extremely difficult.
The other issue is that I believe the Con score selected should take highest, not use the new creature form.
Quizmar wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:56 pmI've done some testing with current shifter and the main problem preventing it from being even remotely usable is that while polymorphed there is no stats from gear.
with warlock 5, shifter 10, barbarian 15, the dire tiger gets 36 AB, and 41 AC. With gear, those numbers would be in the mid 50s both. Without that, PVP is a dream, and PVE is extremely difficult.
The other issue is that I believe the Con score selected should take highest, not use the new creature form.
Shapes do infact take stats from gear. When you polymorph it creates three invisible items and depending on the shape it will merge stats from your equipment onto one of those three items . Item one will merge all weapon properties you have. Item two will merge all armor, sheilds and helms. Item three merges everything else. (Gloves/Bracers are the only item that cannot be merged.)
There are two problems with this however. First not all shapes have all three slots available for merging. Typically if the shape wields a visible weapon like the Minotaurs and his axe, will benefit from all three item merges. Most of the other shapes only benefit from the second two sets of item merging. Then there a couple shapes for whatever reason only benefit from their armor set being merged. Secondly because of how the merging works, duplicate stats are useless as the strongest one overites the others. Meaning if you have +1 str on a ring and +2 str on an amulet the merged item will only have +2 str.
Yep, shifter currently requires very specific gearing. Some properties DO stack such as DI%, regeneration, and anything on the held weapon (even ability points) will stack on top of whatever the other stuff is so long as you’re in a weapon holding shape.
