Arelith

Windows95 CD-ROM wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:20 pm

I think this should be considered importantly for the argument of this spell being considered for high saves or pvp, given how rare these items are to be found or how difficult they are to attain.

It's probably easier than getting greater breach rods, faerie fire rods, greater restoration stones, mords gems, anti-magic potions, and timestop clocks.

I really cannot see myself PvPing enough to need more than a handful of these potions in the entire lifetime of my character.

RaeRey wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:34 pm

Evangalist / Loremaster / Dirgesinger for example will currently have CL28, CL30 vs dispels, and a near limitless amount of CL25 Mords scrolls to spam repeatedly.

And the fact that this is terrifying is exactly why I feel like the power of Mords is hobbling any changes to Wizard or Sorcerer. If we make any of those spells better on the face, everyone else who can hold up a piece of paper gets access to it and then some.

Ultimately, the answer is to either make a set of spells that cannot be scribed which gives Sor/Wiz some of their juice back... Or convert them to using MMOesque casting systems to alleviate the pressure. Either way, it will require something drastic.

RaeRey wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:41 pm

Sincra wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:31 pm

I'd like to see how your gear looks with just t2 runes to reach that!

this also looks like it exceeds the 20 cap.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:50 pm

this also looks like it exceeds the 20 cap.

Yes, because people use DC35 spellcraft-bypassing Dirty Fighting, so it's good to get +30 mundane saves even if some spellcraft saves end up going over the soft cap.

The sheet accounts for the +20 soft cap, if that's what you were wondering. It's not using +23 soft saves in the total.

Okay, Zedd. I don't think CL25 mords spam is even a consideration because of action economy. Next!

It's not just spellcasters throwing around mords either. Let's not forget the breaches.

Spellswords are also still exceptionally powerful. And many, many classes can reach it gearing certain ways. Swashbuckler Weaponmaster Loremaster. Fighter weaponmaster Loremaster. Rogues. Etc.

It's not just certain spellcasting classes that are accessing this. Will there be players who are not sitting there all sweaty maximizing their builds and pre-planning every aspect of their gear for the highest optimal efficiencies? Yes. Absolutely.

I also am not trying to suggest that PVP is the be all and end all experience of Arelith. It isn't. But I'm going through dungeons with others and I don't know what purpose my character has anymore. A dirgesinger bard does hilariously more damage more consistently, gets the same undead summons, can use scrolls for anything I'm lacking, and provides endlessly higher amounts of utility and skills.

The cleric has breaches for PVE, the cleric is able to cast hastes, heal, and has more powerful abilities.

The warlock is an insane beast with comically higher damage, infini-haste, and infinite control spells AND will outheal the cleric AND have a touch AB of like 58 ignoring concealment.

Hemomancers and elementalists have been -absurd- with what they are able to perform. Arcane flux being able to do something once very 5 minutes that these other classes do forever and constantly with almost 0 downtime is not even close to an enjoyable experience.

I feel like sorc could be maybe touched up on significantly by some kind of bloodline system maybe offering neat bonuses, custom spells. Maybe it can lose its div dip unless it's got some specific bloodline that has less power in other areas, I don't know. I feel as if this is something that could be done. Hell, I could write up a design document. The only problem is I don't really have the programming knowledge.

I have even ideas for how you could work wizard. Add some new archetypes or paths via feats that allow for different synergies, or certain benefits to the class beyond specialist wizards. Especially considering most... of these aren't good. Or by taking them you're deleting even more of the possible abilities you can bring to a party and otherwise just being... bad at your job.

I really don't want to try and just be super negative here. Like I said wizard is my favorite class. But I don't think I've met a sorceror in an incredibly long time. Not when warlock, elementalist, and hemomancer exist. And I still don't know why you'd play a wizard over a spellsword in 99% of situations anymore. Because yes you lose summons. But outside of planar conduit you're uh. NOT MISSING MUCH.

If I could just cast spells without getting interrupted reliably by the baseline consistent damage output that would be a start. Give all caster clases ESF concentration and/or change how the check works.

And drastically limit antimagic items in loot table. Maybe consider making premo +6DR so it’s not just tissue paper and breach padding and does something if you get bonked. And consider dialing back AB and damage numbers, they’re insane. Or add an exhaustion factor where ab declines after so many swings so they don’t have infinite damage output and deal with same issues of limited output.

Cap div save progression. Limit uni save stacking. Reduce spellcraft effect on certain spells like before. Change sorc and Wiz to d6. There are options here.

It's wild to me that in Arelith's landscape, sorc and wizard still don't have at least d6 hp, but c'est la vie.

Until save or die spells are reined in and retooled, I doubt wizard and sorc'll ever have a particularly enjoyable repertoire of spells for PVP, but for what it's worth, as a Wizard Enjoyer, I can assure you that Wizard has come a very long way in the last few years and is perfectly playable in PVE in a variety of situations with proper planning and some gumption.

You might have to spend some money on -gasp- consumables like a fighter might if you're doing dungeons solo, but even on unhinged specialist builds I was able to punch up a little more than I reasonably should have.

As far as wizards fitting into party comps, while you might struggle to fill the role of a blaster caster in a group with a hemomancer or an invoker, well. If you wanted to fill that role better you'd play those classes. That's what they're there for. The class fantasy isn't the same and that sucks bigtime because I have always kind of wanted to be the stereotypical mad explosion wizard, but hey. Arelith doesn't agree with every class fantasy.

I can't speak for Sorc, because every time I look at Sorc I think to myself, "This would be a really fun class to play if I could pick more than two total spells to use for fun ever," and that just feels like a losing battle. Why would I ever play Sorcerer when, as a Wizard, I can at least pretend to have a choice over what spells I want to use? Sorcerer is just in a sad state, and if any class needs some variety breathed into it, it's sorcerer. I don't think it needs to be particularly stronger, though? Just. More interesting. Literally any amount more interesting and enjoyable than licking 80 grit sandpaper for an hour straight.

As an aside, I worry that cutting down on common sources of boosting saves that many classes have access to will just cause the sweatier pvp nerds to gravitate towards builds that can still get those saves, even if it means leaving entire classes behind. While the number of players who are really into pvp don't make up the bulk of the server, it's something to consider; If you're going to bring down general sources of saves, you should want to bring down specific sources, too. Otherwise the same problems are going to persist and Nothing of Consequence will have been solved.

Okay bye.

Not just Premonition, Greater Stoneskin should get a boost to +6, maybe limit it to the classes that more actively rely on these sorts of defenses. +5 weapons, all the items, high saves, the issues with this class have been piling up. It's almost like someone got hurt by a Wizard long ago and now they're holding a grudge, this just doesn't make any sense to me. Elminster, Khelben Blackstaff, Vecna, Manshoon, these are all Wizards, are they all just supposed to be glorified buff bots now?

Everyone has access to wands, Death Ward is not on the breach list and even then, you just have to focus on having enough Fortitude and drinking a Clarity potion so you don't lose yourself. If the Wizard manages to finally corner you with a spell. You finally failed a save and it looks like you're done for, but just type -pray, say a few Hail Marys and you're back in the game. I didn't realize the gods were so invested into every damn fight that happens on this island.

Save or die is not a standalone dynamic. With the state of damage output for many it’s “get touched and die.”

How many builds are built around reliably 1-2 rounding someone with alpha strike? Or hp stacking to prevent it because it’s so common…

Why can a str martial have reliable 1 round pressure as a standard, and do that over and over without losing gas in the tank, but a wizard getting a save or die lucky roll is somehow bad for server health? Mind you that’s likely the casters only prepped casting of wail until next rest and required a mords first (and I repeat death ward is not in the breach list and lasts ages unlike NEP or fom!). Very odd… maybe add it to breach list and reduce duration to match?

I'm surprised people are surprised that niche options are being used in PvP situations on Arelith.

Like-- the creators of the server have purposely made it to where conflict is inevitable, they have purposely gone out of their way to make sure PvP is always a viable option, that PvP is always a threat, that PvP is potentially just around the corner, and done nothing to curb the people that use PvP for every situation.

How is anyone surprised that people would take anything on this server and apply it to situations to give them an edge in potential PvP combat? This is the culture that has been cultivated on the server. The people making the server wanted PvP to be a major part of it, they literally say "You can't avoid pvp forever." even if you express you don't want to PvP.

LIterally on the main discord if you talk about wanting to build a character, but mention you don't want to PvP, you're just told by multiple people "Well it doesn't matter if you want to PvP or not, it's going to happen you should be prepared for it."

Seriously. how is any of this surprising to anyone?

To reiterate: This is the culture that was cultivated by refusing to reign in PvP, and actively promoting it, and pushing it even if people do not want to engage in PvP.

Because frankly D&D was never designed as a PvP game, it's not balanced for PvP. Having your own party members getting dominated and being a threat was a MAJOR problem for a reason.

It's not that wizard is incapable of dong nothing. It can do things!

The problem is that even support wise, with the way cleric domains work, they are just... better. Take magic domain for instance. Greater dispelling once per minute. Starting at level 10. In order to do this as a wizard, I need to be level 15. But then also, I need to give up all conjuration magic. It gives the cleric so many spells that wizards would use and want. Sure. Not greater breach or mords. But at the same time it gives mantles. Mage armor. A bonus language. Additional spell craft and crafting points. A free scribe feat (Or possibly craft wand depending)

A single domain of which you get two, negates many benefits of being a wizard. As that same cleric can also use the same summons, gets access to undead sooner than you do as a wizard, has far -far- better buffs, can heal, and has much more versatility. And you can do this (Minus the summoning) as a war priest, and hit 56 AB while doing so. Still having all the absurd buffs you'd want and as much damage as a weapon master with elemental avatar meaning you drop 3 AC.

Cloistered can spam all sorts of spells linked to domains almost non-stop. Far more powerful ones than a wizard can.

Healer/Defiler will keep everything alive or murder it and can still use anything they want summon wise. They don't get armor. Sure. But they can still give +15 AC as a minimum. 19 with haste. Or literally upwards of +25 AC if they have the right domains which also offer insane other value and power.

Most cleric paths give additional power with minimal, if any, downside to them.

Warlocks depending on their pact can infinicast boatloads of damage, boatloads of CC, and eldritch blast is no joke. They have so much versatility with how you can make them, and don't even need to rely on DC's to be consistent with what they do.

Favoured souls have some boons but I feel like are just worse versions of clerics now (I know this isn't 100% true, I just feel like domains now give so much power and so much path benefits that favoured soul which had a super cool niche of being an ultimate battle-cleric adjacent thing is now lacking).

Shamans have some neat build paths with barbarians, bards, rangers, and can be really interesting casters or melee-esc builds, or even a full on pokemon trainer with elemental swarm, animal empathy, and 2 tribals where you send an entire army after people.

Elementalists/Hemomancers just obliterate things. They even still have some minor supports.

Bards who are support still give -massive- buffs to a group unable to be achieved by any other means both in and out of battle. God forbid it's a dirge bard where you can burst reliably for like 400 damage, giving even more insane buffs, and crippling debuffs while still getting full bardsong and mummy dust.

Druids have interesting spells but are encroached on now by clerics and shamans. I feel like they are good due to the fact that totem exists despite the intrinsic issues with the stat hits up front and early. But the wildshapes and interesting spell list at least gives it something that stands apart from its peers.

Wildmage is interesting and has power, but still often relies on DC's for it to be effective. It falls into the same issue that the rest of wizard does.

Shadowmage giving shadowdancer capabilities is one of the biggest jokes I've seen in the universe and should be actually deleted or reworked entirely because it suggests something might be viable but it's probably one of the biggest mistakes I could ever envision somebody making. Maybe if you're going to be a VERY specific palemaster or necromancer focused character or have some other small benefits it might hold a more capable spot. The RP of it is neat! But you're trading flavour for a boatload of power and usefulness being tossed out the window.

Also we have transmutation specialist wizards at home. It's called Spellsword. I cannot fathom a world where anyone plays this for anything other than RP, and it still being bad compared to a spellsword.

But yes. I could write up a document for sorceror bloodlines/synergies.

Could even write up some ideas around wizard.

Arcane trickster - Assassin/rogue/shadowdancer synergies.

We have arcane archer. It's honestly not a terrible idea at all.

Maybe some kind of crafting variant, that allows it to make things better. Might not be super optimal for PVP/PVE but it gives neat support variations. Maybe it can make stronger/more interesting golems or support creatures only it can use but it has to invest in them in meaningful ways.

Some kind of mystic theurge.

Some kind of summoner class, that has to invest additional feats in creating a custom creature that it can use like an Eidolon rather than a familiar.

Shadowcaster rather than the shadowmage we have now. Have this maybe gain power as people around them use spells, or as they use spells. Shadow magic is the null that exists when other magic is used and the reflection of those. As magic happens around you, gain points towards special abilities and themed powers.

Truenamer: Have 120 WPM (Or just like to use the NUI bars like bards do?) Type your magics. Cast spells empowered by having to use words and emotes in the middle of a fight.

Obviously some of these wouldn't work, wouldn't be interesting and need actual design docs. Yes, I know technically many of these are other classes or PRC's. All I mean to suggest is that there's so many ways you could do wizards more interestingly with say, magical theses/archtypes.

But I feel like the only thing that'd 'fix' DC spells in almost any capacity is going to be a shift to a PF2E system where spells have a range of effects.

Usually it's something like. They fail a DC by 10 or more? Extra effect. Fail the DC? The normal spell. They save? A much lesser effect. They save by 10 or more? Nothing.

I don't know. It just feels like as it is now these classes are so in the dust they may as well be under ground.

Erm.. no--

Healer Clerics only get 2/3rd their Wis to AC from monks
They get spell failure for wearing a shield over light, and have to multiclass to even be allowed to use a shield (Which monk does not give)
Multiclassing too much disastrously reduces your caster level, making people allergic to you or your buffs because of how dispels work.

Healer Clerics do not get remotely good defenses.

+5 AC from shield of faith. +10 AC from Magic Vestments. +4 from Haste. That's 19 AC to you and other friends.

Magic domain? +1 from mage armor.

Plant domain? +5 from Barkskin.

Both? Looks like you're giving yourself or others +25 AC. You don't need to take monk levels, in order to be a supremely capable healing path cleric. My point is that you offer infinitely more support than a wizard, not that you're single handedly better as a fighter, and do more in support.

And yes. Defilers absolutely can demolish things with rapid efficiency.

Edit: Also a single point which suggests healer clerics don't themselves get massive AC doesn't remove... literally anything else I've posted there or made it less true. The point is also in comparison to wizards. Because if you want to play a DMG wizard, you're outclassed. If you want to be a support wizard... you're outclassed. And the other classes give options you literally don't ever have as a wizard.

I have never once seen a greater owls potion, at the very least they dont drop in UD. and stuff that sells from vendors once per reset is hard to get, its been months and I barely have 20 1d8 acid essences and no one will sell theirs to me. I have a difficult time believing you can reliably have a supply of greater owls unless most people just didnt know about the vendor or you have the time to bogard the npc everytime the server resets.

But Will It Blend wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:01 pm

+5 AC from shield of faith. +10 AC from Magic Vestments. +4 from Haste. That's 19 AC to you and other friends.

Magic domain? +1 from mage armor.

Plant domain? +5 from Barkskin.

Both? Looks like you're giving yourself or others +25 AC. You don't need to take monk levels, in order to be a supremely capable healing path cleric. My point is that you offer infinitely more support than a wizard, not that you're single handedly better as a fighter, and do more in support.

And yes. Defilers absolutely can demolish things with rapid efficiency.

Edit: Also a single point which suggests healer clerics don't themselves get massive AC doesn't remove... literally anything else I've posted there or made it less true. The point is also in comparison to wizards. Because if you want to play a DMG wizard, you're outclassed. If you want to be a support wizard... you're outclassed. And the other classes give options you literally don't ever have as a wizard.

Yeah- I didn't dispute the rest of your post.

I was simply disputing the fact that Healer Clerics get +15 AC from their wisdom, and explained why that was false.

If you're taking magic and plant domain as a healing cleric you are actively nerfing the one thing you are good at, which is healing, by a major amount. Healing Domain (Or suffering I guess) is required to bolster your overhealing, and actively scales your healing upwards.

Anyone can get a +4 AC Barkskin wand, this isn't special or unique to Clerics (And I certainly wouldn't waste a domain slot for +1 AC), Mage Armor is literally the most accessible spell in the game requiring 5 lore and a 50gp scroll at minimum (There are rings that just give you +5 lore that you can slap on, cast the spell, take off move on with your life since it's an hours spell)

Shield potions give +4 Deflection AC, for basically no investment and reduce the damage you take from magic missile style attacks. They also come in cheap 5 lore scrolls as well. Even if you invested nothing in UMd you can still easily get barkskin potions for +3 or if your feeling fancy get people to scribe you shadowshield scrolls because lore is stupidly easy to get in this game.

Again, it's actually more likely only +5 AC from magic vestments, unless you are sacrificing your caster level to use a small sheild.

Yes, I can buff alot of people and using the plethora of consumables in the game I can buff alot of people. Know who else can buff a ton of people? Anyone with 5 levels in loremaster.

But you know what's even better than AC? Greater Invisibility and Mass Haste. Most people don't walk around assuming they are going to have a cleric buffing their AC to the max. They are usually self sustaining. It's just extra on top if you do happen to have a cleric buffing you.

I'm not arguing that Wizards / Sorcerers aren't in a bad place, I -just- rolled my sorcereress character because of how unfun sorcerers are to play.

If anything, the fact consumables are SO easily accessible to ANYONE is more the problem, because full on mundane characters can buff themselves just about as well as any spellcaster outside of a very select few spells -and- have CL 30 against dispells.

Imagine going the other route, of doing to martials what was done to casters, add some over-the-top items that only heavily invested casters could equip that put them on the same melee level as your average Fighter. Give them a boost to APR and damage when this special item is equipped, now how many people will be playing a Fighter over a Wizard?

"Oh but the Fighter RP is fun!"

Balance is suppose to be a give and take, if you get something you gave something up for it, action economy has gotten in the way of that balance, unless you're poor.

Kalthariam wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 6:39 pm

I'm surprised people are surprised that niche options are being used in PvP situations on Arelith.

Like-- the creators of the server have purposely made it to where conflict is inevitable, they have purposely gone out of their way to make sure PvP is always a viable option, that PvP is always a threat, that PvP is potentially just around the corner, and done nothing to curb the people that use PvP for every situation.

How is anyone surprised that people would take anything on this server and apply it to situations to give them an edge in potential PvP combat? This is the culture that has been cultivated on the server. The people making the server wanted PvP to be a major part of it, they literally say "You can't avoid pvp forever." even if you express you don't want to PvP.

LIterally on the main discord if you talk about wanting to build a character, but mention you don't want to PvP, you're just told by multiple people "Well it doesn't matter if you want to PvP or not, it's going to happen you should be prepared for it."

Seriously. how is any of this surprising to anyone?

To reiterate: This is the culture that was cultivated by refusing to reign in PvP, and actively promoting it, and pushing it even if people do not want to engage in PvP.

Because frankly D&D was never designed as a PvP game, it's not balanced for PvP. Having your own party members getting dominated and being a threat was a MAJOR problem for a reason.

And thank goodness it’s permissive, it’d be terrible if it weren’t. If it were consent based no one would accept and would continue to act hostile to hide behind these protections. Death and violence are a part of the setting and a check on other behaviors. If only people actually feared death more..

Bear in mind I define pvp more broadly. Sabotaging someone’s reputation, exiling or pariahing them, evicting them from shops or quarters, and so on. These are all player vs. player actions, just not mechanical combat. Combat is but one vector for PvP, and arguably the least impactful given people don’t give death much meaning and mechanical consequences of death are very minimal.

Anomandaris wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:42 pm

Kalthariam wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 6:39 pm

I'm surprised people are surprised that niche options are being used in PvP situations on Arelith.

Like-- the creators of the server have purposely made it to where conflict is inevitable, they have purposely gone out of their way to make sure PvP is always a viable option, that PvP is always a threat, that PvP is potentially just around the corner, and done nothing to curb the people that use PvP for every situation.

How is anyone surprised that people would take anything on this server and apply it to situations to give them an edge in potential PvP combat? This is the culture that has been cultivated on the server. The people making the server wanted PvP to be a major part of it, they literally say "You can't avoid pvp forever." even if you express you don't want to PvP.

LIterally on the main discord if you talk about wanting to build a character, but mention you don't want to PvP, you're just told by multiple people "Well it doesn't matter if you want to PvP or not, it's going to happen you should be prepared for it."

Seriously. how is any of this surprising to anyone?

To reiterate: This is the culture that was cultivated by refusing to reign in PvP, and actively promoting it, and pushing it even if people do not want to engage in PvP.

Because frankly D&D was never designed as a PvP game, it's not balanced for PvP. Having your own party members getting dominated and being a threat was a MAJOR problem for a reason.

And thank goodness it’s permissive, it’d be terrible if it weren’t. If it were consent based no one would accept and would continue to act hostile to hide behind these protections. Death and violence are a part of the setting and a check on other behaviors. If only people actually feared death more..

Bear in mind I define pvp more broadly. Sabotaging someone’s reputation, exiling or pariahing them, evicting them from shops or quarters, and so on. These are all player vs. player actions, just not mechanical combat. Combat is but one vector for PvP, and arguably the least impactful given people don’t give death much meaning and mechanical consequences of death are very minimal.

I agree with the sentiment but I don't think the narrative of PVP being part of the server's culture is really important to the discussion we're having here. I've been places where PVP needs consent and it was bad. But I'd like to try and keep this on topic. Even if PVP is a part of wizard/sorcerer's being outclassed, I'd rather not have this devolve into the culture of PVP being accepted here VS other places where it isn't.

Thanks

FWIW I think warlocks are overrated. You can infinicast but it's a limited number of spells and the ones you can't infinicast go quickly. You pretty much have to be a beam blaster because the doom/area blast doesn't reliably work mechanically and probably won't get fixed any time soon. Caster warlocks don't really work either since spells were reigned in (you do get a nice summons of course but when that's gone you really struggle). You can certainly be effective, I'm not saying they're useless at all but I think they're oversold as being immensely superior to wizard and that's not even getting into how a wizard is welcome anywhere and a warlock will likely be ostracized on the surface.

That's not to say wizards can't use love but I don't think "the grass is greener" or at least not that much greener. I say this after playing a half dozen warlocks then trying a wizard and I'm surprised how much easier it is than I expected in PVE, and that's a diviner specialist wizard who's certainly not built for power.

In big party pvp I rather have a well played wizard over a warlock on my party 10/10 times.

Also, saves are too high for casters, but they're kind of in a good spot against mundane things and harbnger so nerfing saves would be a bad idea imo.

But if there's one thing we have established in 2024 that I think we'd all agree on, is that even in the current dwaemo system, without access to hard 5s, there are still complains about traditional mages having too low DCs, which is interesting, becuase those complains will only grow when the new system hits live eventually, and we know its being worked on at present.

Are people just afraid to play mages and realize that "huh maybe I actually do win pvp with dc spells after all", or are saves too high? It's really one or the other.

Part of the issue with vancian casters is the binary nature of their offensive spells that are not just pure damage.

You cast it, and either it changes the outcome of the battle, or it fizzles.

For that reason, folks will always push to have their saves as high as possible, as will vancian casters push to have their DCs as high as possible, because that is the difference between feeling like your character has a purpose beyond casting mass haste and hiding invisible, and feeling like you really should have just made a mundane LM and used scrolls or harps.

It's a difficult issue to solve, and it would take an overhaul of the spell system, for the most part.

To answer the ops title question, because you like the rp and want to have fun solo leveling.

I totally feel the comment about wizards feeling useless in group pve.

I don't think wizards (with a good pilot) are awful in pvp, especially in a group, but it is kinda funny that the best wizard build in my mind at least right now stops at 19 base int, goes high dex instead, loads up on missles with meta magic and hits the corner like a boss. take evoker for the extra penetration/missles.

I don't know what the answer is if balance is the goal, but balance is a silly goal in its own right. Wizards should be scary, and they really aren't, which is bleh from a flavor standpoint.

Richrd wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:47 am

I unironically love how deranged this thread is.

On topic: Remove Loremaster. Restore balance. Make build-maxers cry in despair.

Not really sure how it's deranged. But if you're not really looking to be helpful, please find another thread. Thank you.

Richrd wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:47 am

I unironically love how deranged this thread is.

On topic: Remove Loremaster. Restore balance. Make build-maxers cry in despair.

The existence of Loremaster has nothing to do with the state of wizards though. Wizards aren't bad because people can use scrolls, that was the meta on areltih for years and years with a simple 15 umd and a rogue splash on your weapons master. The only thing loremaster did when it was cut to 5 levels was revert the biggest impact of loremaggeden.

Wizards are the way they are because of cuts to their power. When I started on arelith, EDK was a legit pvp thing because the dragon was strong, but that got nerfed. Timestop/evo combo was a good way to kill people, but then that got nerfed. In that same time frame, almost every other class has gotten a boost in power level while the wizard was being dragged down into the abyss of pointlessness on all fronts of the game. Then we got a bunch of new caster classes that are all too powerful for pve at least, making the wizard just some relic of the past.

And if you read the OP, you would know that's where this thread is coming from. But instead, it feels like you are just here to push an agenda against loremaster, and while I am all for that in some of the pointless threads this thread actually has a worthy conversation. It's been beaten to death like most topics, but since no one has a clear answer at this point on what should be done I say let's keep having it hopes of someone actually has a good idea, or at the very least the spark that leads to a good idea.