The Case For UD Expansion

[WitchyEvil]

6) Account-Wide Ownership Limits in High-Demand Hubs
To prevent property hoarding across multiple alts, consider implementing account-wide limits for housing and shop ownership within overcrowded hubs like Andunor. A restriction of one house and one shop per account (rather than per character) could help free up space for newer and more active players, promoting fairer distribution and more active usage of the city’s limited resources.

I just want to say that.. this is already the rule.

If you find someone owning multiple properties, even if it's on multiple characters, it should be reported.

Per the Astrolabe:

To conserve server resources for all, ownership of game property is limited per PLAYER. Not character, CD key, login name, etc. Flesh-and-blood player.

[Irongron]

So as I said earlier UD has a huge expansion incoming, beyond that I've often considered an expansion to the Ogre's Fist; that side of the UD is far flung, with plenty of local content. Likely it would take the form of 3 or 4 faction (guild) houses occupying the same local space, so control rotates between active groups.

Before all this though I've long sought a faction overhaul, where together with a developer move a lot of guild houses over to a faction bidding system similar to the castles, because it would be kind of depressing to make something like the above and see them sat upon for the next decade by a single group.

Still, it's all vaguely in the future while I'm on hiatus. It may make more sense to post these discussions when I'm around to act upon them.

[Exordius]

You know the trade post in the upperdark exists, maybe expand it some and make it into a quasi-settlement like westcliff?

Would also be appealing to surfacers who want to trade in the UD, but may not want to risk going into andunor itself.

[Critique]

Might be cool if Sibiyad had its own underdark settlement underneath that you had to sail to.

(Or maybe it already does for all I know, I haven't explored that much.)

[Darkstorn42]

Personally, I would like to see there be a UD outpost on the Guld server that connects to the deep wells, giving access to that dungeon to the UD without having to risk running around a surface city while also having a slave caller, because Guld is the only server that a slave can hide and not risk being summoned.

[Rei_Jin]

1. Andunor absolutely would benefit from more quarters and stores
2. Goblintown would be fantastic, once Irongron is back and active
3. A new faction system and guildhouses being on a bidding system would be fantastic
4. The Upperdark Tradepost being expanded would be fantastic
5. The Drow DO NOT NEED THEIR OWN SETTLEMENT, they would absolutely turn inward and become exceedingly toxic. The thing that keeps drow not toxic is that they must engage and compete with the other races in Andunor; taking that away will make the situation much, much worse
6. Make the Grotto a bidding property between kobolds and gnomes only. Kobold supremacy when???

[Zariu]

I know there are a lot of valid concerns from the past of Arelith with Udos. Which as a reminder, is now well over ten years at least so many are not familiar with what happened in Udos and the Underdark at that time. I am -one- of those people and often a full decade changes in server culture and playerbase are enough for ideas to be at least revisited. This doesn't make it the right choice to have a drow city, but knee-jerk reactions to newer people posing the question when there are numbers to back up asking the question isn't exactly helpful nor does it explain why it is a bad idea. Those giving a bit more info like trying to avoid the xenophobia of drow or how concentrated drow become toxic is a bit more to work with.

But, that point also begs a question. The drow city is feared due to how xenophobic and exclusive it would be. So, how will this goblin expansion be more inclusive than just goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears? If it isn't well, the argument in that way falls flat. If its due to toxicity, well we're assuming a likely completely different playerbase will have the same toxicity, with the only link being the drow race and house rp. Which, there does seem to be overwhelming thoughts of drow as the race itself being toxic, perhaps the server needs to set its own standard for the race that is a bit off from canon and less toxic? With how many drow are in Andunor, people are already subject to this playerbase and house rp. Many having no where else to go to distance from it if they want to.

There is also another point which needs to be considered if a majority drow city is going to be horrendous. Andunor stands to possibly become one depending upon how the UD is handled. Let's say for example... the new goblin area is a large city and allows all monster races. Except drow. Well, some monsters may move over to the other city. This could lead to a further percentage increase of drow to other races in the city. If it increases enough, Andunor would become a mostly drow city, with houses and their rp at the fore. In function for the playerbase becoming a majority drow city which may have some level of xenophobia despite being a trade city.

So perhaps a better angle if not a drow city, is to expand the devil's table a bit and the rest of Andunor. Give some space for this houses RP and space for others to be away from the houses RP. Either way, just ignoring the large monthly playerbase and interest in drow and house rp seems a bad choice to me. It is important to consider how changes to the UD will likely create concentrations or movements of certain racial populations and therefore types of rp common to areas. Rather complex piece of game design with many moving parts, but I do hope it is thought about.

[PowerWord Rage]

The drow city is feared due to how xenophobic and exclusive it would be. So, how will this goblin expansion be more inclusive than just goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears?

Because Goblin, Hobgoblins are almost always going to be the minority and they will still be forced to keep being active in the Hub to generate RP.

Another thing though, it's really good time for them to finally RP away from Sewer...after so many years, like many many years. I'm happy for those who play Goblins.

There're many reasons why Drow are the superior pick over all other Underdark races such as aesthetic, such as lore, such as mechanics and too many other reasons.
And due to that, they will always have big numbers.
So i won't repeat DM Grumpycat's post on how big numbers will swing things around.

[Ayami]

The drow city is feared due to how xenophobic and exclusive it would be. So, how will this goblin expansion be more inclusive than just goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears?

Because Goblin, Hobgoblins are almost always going to be the minority

Well, of course they will always be the minority. Just to play one, a person needs to have a Normal Award and get direct DM approval. That’s already a huge barrier to entry. Most players won’t even meet those requirements, let alone choose to go through the process.

Drow, on the other hand, are available to anyone. No awards, no permissions. You just make the character and jump in.

That alone makes it pretty clear why goblins will always have smaller numbers, and why comparing their situation to the drow isn’t really fair. The systems in place are completely different, and that has a big impact on how things play out in the game world.

And this ties right back into what the Zariu was saying. It’s not about demanding a drow-only settlement. It’s about acknowledging that something needs to shift.

Andunor is being stretched thin. It’s expected to be the trade hub, the political seat, the home of every major faction, and the battleground for House RP all in one space. That’s a tall order even for a quiet zone, but Andunor is one of the most active areas on the server.

That pressure has to go somewhere.

Even just expanding what we already have, like giving Devil’s Table, The Sharps and Greyport more quarters or building in some buffer zones between the heavy RP and casual RP, could make a big difference. Right now it can feel like you either dive headfirst into House politics or struggle to carve out space for anything else.

And if more players shift into new areas like Goblintown, the balance in Andunor will tilt even further toward drow dominance just by default. So if the concern is avoiding a drow-dominated city, doing nothing could actually bring us closer to that.

This isn’t about making big sweeping changes. It’s about making smart ones. A few structural tweaks would go a long way toward easing pressure and making room for more types of stories to grow

[PowerWord Rage]

Hm...
Since when does Goblin and Hobgoblin requires award and dm permission...though?
I'm certainly not aware unless it was changed recently?

And no...Drow influence can never go to goblin town, i mean...it's simply impossible from any standpoint.

It’s about making smart ones.

I don't like this particular sentence honestly. But hey, it's just me.

[Zariu]

To expand on my mention of maybe the server needs to set drow expectations to be less toxic if drow rp is simply considered toxic. Non-canon wouldn't even be needed to shift this after doing some review of the race page. If you read the very ancient arelith drow page, it clearly depicts drow in a very majority drow lolthite city way. By shifting the depiction and expectation to more Skullport city drow, trade city drow who would fit in Andunor well, the culture of drow rp would likely slowly shift in time. Right now, anyone reading the drow page would expect super xenophobia to the point of avoiding other races to be key in playing a drow for example amoung other things.

Skullport drow are still mostly evil, and sure they still are xenophobic. But they also know they need the other races about the trade city for various uses. Similarly, if I ran a server set in Sshamath, it'd be correct to inform players on my drow page that the city attracts odd drow and lolthite fundamentalists will have a hard time. Due to the lore it has of a mageocracy and lesser standing of the temple and houses. So, if a different sort of drow are expected to be drawn by Andunor, a page update would be ideal to really reflect the server vision.

[Xerah]

It’s about making smart ones. A few structural tweaks would go a long way toward easing pressure and making room for more types of stories to grow

It’s kind of rude to imply that Irongron’s work isn’t a smart move. Drow don’t need a city to promote more types of stories. Goblins can use that far more.

I’ve played drow, goblins and everything in between. This is certainly the one of the better choices if a new city is developed. People who play only 1 race tend to have a very biased perspective on the matter.

The 3 Andunor districts just got facelifts. Could they use more rooms? Maybe. But I’m not sure why you’re linking it to the goblin town that Irongron wants to build.

And goblins don’t need DM approval. Snow and grodd require awards but they don’t need approval.

[Eira]

Treadstone constantly has 10+ quarters that are usually available.

I bring them up whenever people claim there's not enough quarters. The answer I usually get is "well they're not as nice as others".

I don't think the situation is dire as it's made out to be if luxury has any bearing on it. A quarter is a quarter. They also tend to cycle through very quickly.

[WitchyEvil]

Before all this though I've long sought a faction overhaul, where together with a developer move a lot of guild houses over to a faction bidding system similar to the castles, because it would be kind of depressing to make something like the above and see them sat upon for the next decade by a single group.

I'm only snipping this part, because I'd like to ask in all seriousness:

Wouldn't a faction bidding system just increase the problem? Some factions have existed for ages and have multiple bank accounts to draw upon, they could control and dominate those bids for years without necessarily even having to be active as they could simply draw on those old funds when the bids come up.

Only those groups with the MOST money would ever be able to own such a location, and it seems like it would exacerbate the situation in limiting new growth and new comers, since it would be based on how much you could spend rather than the current luck of the draw when it does come up.

---

That said, I don't see an active faction holding the same lease for long term as an issue, with the key phrase here being active.

But I am eager to see what's coming ahead.

[Ayami]

It’s about making smart ones. A few structural tweaks would go a long way toward easing pressure and making room for more types of stories to grow

It’s kind of rude to imply that Irongron’s work isn’t a smart move.

While I hadn’t planned on responding to this directly, but let’s be clear: I never once said Irongron’s work isn’t smart. If you had taken the time to actually read and understand what I’ve written, you’d see I’m not against goblins getting their own area. In fact, in one of my very first posts if not the first, I said I support it.

Also, I wasn’t the one who brought up Goblintown or Irongron’s work to begin with. That comparison came from others. The only point I made was that if more players shift into new areas like Goblintown, the balance in Andunor may tip even further toward drow dominance just by default. So if you're going to respond, at least make sure you’re addressing what I actually said and not something you assumed.

My issue isn’t with goblins. It’s about two things: Andunor needing expansion, and outdated systems that haven’t kept up with the size and activity of the playerbase. We have people holding onto homes and shops who no longer engage with the community or contribute to roleplay. They log in once a week, click their door, and log out while offering nothing to the community in between. That kind of behavior locks out active players and stifles growth in one of the busiest areas on the server.

Yes, I understand that Andunor recently got a facelift, and that certainly helped. But it still falls short of what the city actually needs. The facelift should be seen as a step in the right direction, not the final solution. The core issues remain: limited space, outdated retention systems, and a growing and overgrown population.

Yes, I made a mistake earlier by saying goblins required a normal award or DM permission. They don’t. That’s on me, I misread the wiki. They’re just a less commonly played race. But that doesn’t change my point, which has never been about comparing who deserves what. It’s about improving the overall player experience by expanding Andunor and reworking systems that clearly aren’t serving the community anymore.

So instead of jumping straight to the usual knee jerk “drow bad” argument, maybe take a moment, read things fully, and engage with the actual concerns. This is about making the Underdark more enjoyable for everyone, not pushing one group over another.

[Kushion]

mods please disable italics bold and underline from the forums

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Personally, I think what areliths underdark needs more than anything is an enrichment around the setting. Usually what I get is that it's a trade city, or that its similar to skullport. But then when you look at skullport, the two aren't all that similar.

I should probably play for a while in the underdark before I get too deep in suggestions, as there may be a few things I'm missing as someone who's entire body of interactions with Andunor consists of being a visitor. But here's some questions that immediately come to mind:

What keeps the city from being under total Drow control? As has been mentioned already, drow are xenophobes that will try and conquer everything and anything, so what keeps that from happening to Andunor?

What makes this location ideal for a trade hub? Is there a local resource that cities far and wide want to travel to get? Is it just a city on a trade route in the underdark, and if so, who's trading with who along those routes?

What keeps one race from completely dominating another? While it's easy to say "the npcs of course", what is their motivation for keeping say a gloaming safe from a murderous drow at least at face value? These are evil races, and like most evil it will rapidly descend into eating themselves unless something powerful enough for them to fear stops them.

Now, I get why folks want a second city, or new areas, whatever. New places to control and do it your way. But I think that attitude is ultimately bad for the server. Comparing it to the surface, which has roughly 3 times the playerbase at most times, I think the surface has too much going on with various settlements, and I would much prefer that it were two large cities and sibayad where the bigger cities had "neighborhoods" that accommodated races. I think it forces conflict and makes the server interesting when people actually have to fight for power, ect.

The more you spread things out, the easier it becomes at the first sign of conflict to pick up one's ball and drop one of my all-time favorite cartman lines, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

[perseid]

Personally, I think what areliths underdark needs more than anything is an enrichment around the setting. Usually what I get is that it's a trade city, or that its similar to skullport. But then when you look at skullport, the two aren't all that similar.

I should probably play for a while in the underdark before I get too deep in suggestions, as there may be a few things I'm missing as someone who's entire body of interactions with Andunor consists of being a visitor. But here's some questions that immediately come to mind:

What keeps the city from being under total Drow control? As has been mentioned already, drow are xenophobes that will try and conquer everything and anything, so what keeps that from happening to Andunor?

What makes this location ideal for a trade hub? Is there a local resource that cities far and wide want to travel to get? Is it just a city on a trade route in the underdark, and if so, who's trading with who along those routes?

What keeps one race from completely dominating another? While it's easy to say "the npcs of course", what is their motivation for keeping say a gloaming safe from a murderous drow at least at face value? These are evil races, and like most evil it will rapidly descend into eating themselves unless something powerful enough for them to fear stops them.

Now, I get why folks want a second city, or new areas, whatever. New places to control and do it your way. But I think that attitude is ultimately bad for the server. Comparing it to the surface, which has roughly 3 times the playerbase at most times, I think the surface has too much going on with various settlements, and I would much prefer that it were two large cities and sibayad where the bigger cities had "neighborhoods" that accommodated races. I think it forces conflict and makes the server interesting when people actually have to fight for power, ect.

The more you spread things out, the easier it becomes at the first sign of conflict to pick up one's ball and drop one of my all-time favorite cartman lines, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

I don't know that I can agree with this. Imo conflct stopped being well balanced a long time ago. In the current Arelith meta what you'd really have from settlement consolidation is shadow governments run by the resource/pvp-centric factions invested in unsettled territory for the mechanical protection while the actual governments essentially exist at the pleasure of those groups. Having things spread out makes dominating the rp landscape more difficult because you can't just focus on one area to project influence. Without changes to how leases and the server economy are balanced any grand unifications of regions are going to lead to less variety not more imo.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't think any one group is big enough to dominate if 20% of the server is invested in that area. And while i get where your point about the pvp groups is coming from, I don't think that is or at least should be a real issue.

To me, a pvp centric faction is one that actively goes out looking for a fight. They are easy to spot, you see them on the weekends portalling around chasing false reports of enemy sightings all over the server lol. Not my personal cup of tea, but to each there own, and I have been considering making a pure pvp build to try it out myself to see where the fun in it is.

However, I do tend to build so I am at least useful in pvp because pvp is part of the server. You get enough versions of me defending an area, and we will do fine as long as we have solid teamwork (which is a vastly underutilized rp opportunity, practicing for that).

So, no, I don't see mega settlements being dominated by pvp forces. However, with all these small settlements, its actually quite easy for a group to take over and control it for years until they get bored or enough people oocly coordinate to all be playing opposition at the same time, which doesn't sound like a desirable way to play for anyone. Thats literally what Cordor was for a few years, and that's the biggest of all the settlements on the surface, so it's more than just a theory.

[Ruzuke]

I would say that putting on the focus on Settlements governments of retaining a population is a good thing. I am not having fun here I am moving to where I am going to have fun is great for a healthy server and population. Attempting to force people to RP with groups they do not want to does not make quality RP or drive a great experience of having fun.

Players who want to plot, fight, could have areas to do so. Those who want a more peaceful community could do so. Governments who leaders change but the people in all the same position could still exist. Allowing people to have the fun they want around the people they want to play with does not harm the server and is a good thing. Followers of Lolth doing their own thing in a very small settlement would be nice. They could all have that RP away from those who do not want it.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I would say that putting on the focus on Settlements governments of retaining a population is a good thing. I am not having fun here I am moving to where I am going to have fun is great for a healthy server and population. Attempting to force people to RP with groups they do not want to does not make quality RP or drive a great experience of having fun.

Players who want to plot, fight, could have areas to do so. Those who want a more peaceful community could do so. Governments who leaders change but the people in all the same position could still exist. Allowing people to have the fun they want around the people they want to play with does not harm the server and is a good thing. Followers of Lolth doing their own thing in a very small settlement would be nice. They could all have that RP away from those who do not want it.

I'm not sure I fully followed your post, but it sounds like you are promoting segregation lol.

I will say this, you can play this game with little to no conflict if that is your choice no matter where you live. You don't need a separate settlement to do that, you could be a cordor resident and never once touch the political strife. I know that's true because I have done it on half a dozen casual characters over the years.

But the minute you want to control a settlement, whether you can wrap your head around this or not, you are 100% entering the realm of conflict. That's true of the current settlements and would be true of any new settlements. And I would go as far to argue that if your attitude is to smush any potential opposition to your control as soon as possible to maintain your status quo, you shouldn't be in charge of the bag of Doritos, let alone an area designed to foster political conflict. It's just not what the spirit of a cooperative story telling game is. Unfortunately, that happens way too often, and even more surprising its usually some of the best players in the game otherwise that go this route.

Now, smashing the settlements together into a few large clumps won't totally eliminate that issue. But what it will do is force these groups to have to go out of their comfort zone of 30 to 40 people (for cordor, a lot less for the smaller settlements) and form coalitions and uneasy alliances. That gives any potential opposition roleplay opportunities for wiggle room, which I find it hard to believe that anyone looking at this objectively would see as a bad thing.

[Ruzuke]

I'm not sure I fully followed your post, but it sounds like you are promoting segregation lol.

This sounds like white privilege. Segregation is when in South Africa people were told they were no longer citizens of their nation, lost the right to vote, and had too outside their homeland after dark. Their ancestral homes ripped from them and given away to someone else. Lets look at a nicer form of segregation. People just not allowed to go to the same schools, use the same bathrooms, eat at the same counter, or sit on the buses in same area. That is segregation.

People having the choice to RP wherever they want to does not in any shape form sound like segregation. To quote you: Let's see if you can wrap your head around this. If people don't want to RP with a certain group, you cannot force them. You can try and make people do what they do not want to do in their free time. However, it isn't a job and when the limit is reached people not having fun move on.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm not sure I fully followed your post, but it sounds like you are promoting segregation lol.

This sounds like white privilege. Segregation is when in South Africa people were told they were no longer citizens of their nation, lost the right to vote, and had too outside their homeland after dark. Their ancestral homes ripped from them and given away to someone else. Lets look at a nicer form of segregation. People just not allowed to go to the same schools, use the same bathrooms, eat at the same counter, or sit on the buses in same area. That is segregation.

People having the choice to RP wherever they want to does not in any shape form sound like segregation. To quote you: Let's see if you can wrap your head around this. If people don't want to RP with a certain group, you cannot force them. You can try and make people do what they do not want to do in their free time. However, it isn't a job and when the limit is reached people not having fun move on.

That response is ridiculous. From websters, the definition of segregation:

The action or state of setting someone or something apart from others.

And I never said you can't play how you want, do what you want, ect in game. I just don't think you can base a whole settlement around it because now you are part of the shared sandbox. And I don't think that opinion is controversial.

[Ruzuke]

I'm not sure I fully followed your post, but it sounds like you are promoting segregation lol.

This sounds like white privilege. Segregation is when in South Africa people were told they were no longer citizens of their nation, lost the right to vote, and had too outside their homeland after dark. Their ancestral homes ripped from them and given away to someone else. Lets look at a nicer form of segregation. People just not allowed to go to the same schools, use the same bathrooms, eat at the same counter, or sit on the buses in same area. That is segregation.

People having the choice to RP wherever they want to does not in any shape form sound like segregation. To quote you: Let's see if you can wrap your head around this. If people don't want to RP with a certain group, you cannot force them. You can try and make people do what they do not want to do in their free time. However, it isn't a job and when the limit is reached people not having fun move on.

That response is ridiculous. From websters, the definition of segregation:

The action or state of setting someone or something apart from others.

And I never said you can't play how you want, do what you want, ect in game. I just don't think you can base a whole settlement around it because now you are part of the shared sandbox. And I don't think that opinion is controversial.

From the civil rights movement in the US where people were beaten and killed. To the US forcibly allowing certain States to allow other races into schools to break segregation this is real world examples. In South Africa where yes, the African population were stripped of their citizenship, forced to live out of cities and not allowed to be in them after dark. Were in the 1980s it was illegal for a Black and White person to date and have a child. Your lack of understanding of what segregation is how it applies in the recent past and how it occurs today is not unsurprising it is very much privilege. The lol, O M G people on a video game wanting to play with people they want that is totally advocating for segregation. Is not silly it demeans real issues occurring in the world.

I am truly sorry you do not understand that.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and sound a little crazy. And by a little, I don't mean little at all.

Yes, segregation between races was a thing that happened in what was known as the Jim Crow South, named after the man who designed the laws of segregation. It was even worse in Dutch ruled South Africa in what we came to call Apartheid. But it's also true that a sentence like "I segregated the apples from the oranges in my refrigerator" or "I want to segregate myself from players who don't play the way I do on Arelith" have nothing to do with either Jim Crow or Apartheid.

So, unless you think so little of people who had ancestors that struggled through these times that they are going to melt at the word segregation like a vampire in the sun instead of being capable of rational thought and seeing the context, your argument is stupid. And if you do think that little of them, what other words would you suggest we eliminate? Cotton was picked during slavery, can we not say that? Diamonds were harvested dry out of South Africa by the Dutch, making them the wealthiest per capita nation by far, can we no longer say diamond? Your slippery slope is plummeting it's so vertical.

Now, nonsense aside, I appreciate your efforts to rid the world of injustice toward those that have been maligned in the past and those that continue to this day. It's a cause that I firmly believe in. But you have to find a way to do it that doesn't come across patronizing toward the people you claim to be standing up for.