Cordor versus Wharftown

[Recite the Sins]

glad i went to bed early now tbh fam

[SilverCrow]

Rannos will always be Tyreals favourite

And the event was fun too

[Stath]

I would like to thank errerbody who participated.

But for real yo

Lag

You the real mvp

[andthenthatwasthat]

Cordor was able to push so far because of the NPCs that were on their side.

From the standpoint of the people in Cordor, by the time we pushed in against Wharftown, there were no NPCs acting in support of either side; what resulted was a super laggy, PC vs PC battle, with neither side receiving significant NPC support.

In fact, we waited to move into Wharftown until such a point as the NPC forces had, according to a DM shout, pulled out of the fight entirely.

...

This is, unfortunately, wrong (though I can see why you think that's how it played out, as you aren't aware of the other stuff that went on!).

Wharftown was beset on several fronts by powerful Cordorian NPCs throughout the course of the event. They were certainly not prepared for a PvP fight, and were actually in combat with one of the aforementioned powerful NPCs when Team Cordor pushed into Wharftown. Their force was significantly weakened by the time the PvP encounter came about.

I have to take partial blame for this and the resulting confusion. A DM (I think Tophat) approached Djshazad saying the Elites are pulling out and that we are on our own if we want to continue fighting. I took that as a go ahead to now engage with those inside Warftown (meaning Cordor NPC's are out of there). That is probably around the time he crashed, too. Sorry, people.

[Recite the Sins]

[disclaimer-padded-out caveat-filled preamble and eight paragraphs of pre-emptive apologies regarding putting a contentious question and personal opinion on the forum]

Now that that's out of the way

that having opposing factions with so many numbers on each side will just detract away from the story and turn into a PVP slog, thus I'll work out a better way to finish this off.

I actually do have to question you: why do you feel it's your responsibility to do this? This is a player conflict, not a DM plot. It may have gotten its claws in other DM plots, since Cordor's upheavals (that seem to have vanished) were believed by our characters to mean Cordor's in a weak spot, but other than that this should, in my opinion, leave you and yours to just oversee battles and lend a hand/flavour equally. Am I wrong, or is it now the onus of the DM team to press a schedule on wars?

EDIT

Moreover, people losing due to lag or crashes happens all the time and is usually filed under WBTHTGA. Why is it different now?

holy shit

[DMTemplate]

[disclaimer-padded-out caveat-filled preamble and eight paragraphs of pre-emptive apologies regarding putting a contentious question and personal opinion on the forum]

Now that that's out of the way

that having opposing factions with so many numbers on each side will just detract away from the story and turn into a PVP slog, thus I'll work out a better way to finish this off.

I actually do have to question you: why do you feel it's your responsibility to do this? This is a player conflict, not a DM plot. It may have gotten its claws in other DM plots, since Cordor's upheavals (that seem to have vanished) were believed by our characters to mean Cordor's in a weak spot, but other than that this should, in my opinion, leave you and yours to just oversee battles and lend a hand/flavour equally. Am I wrong, or is it now the onus of the DM team to press a schedule on wars?

I will leave it to DM Tophat to answer your question directly, but I want to clarify something. Cordor's upheavals are still an ongoing plot line you are welcome to join. They remain Cordor's weak spot and the DM team welcomes your suggestions on how to exploit this (in the best sense).

[Recite the Sins]

I'm mainly getting that impression since everything we'd heard was literally on the brink of civil war, blood-in-the-streets, Paris-is-burning... and then the update hit anyway. The lack of meaningful transition has left us feeling rather in the lurch.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE the updates and recognise that there was probably just a scheduling setback regarding the parallel transition and plot, but that's just how I see it.

[Yma23]

I think what he means is to finish off the presence of DM interaction within this Player War conflcit.



Current wars are dull. Why? Because mostly the mechanics mostly encourage the main players to win by inaction (leaders staying inside their settlments so as not to be killed ect) And because it takes a ridiculous amount to kill a leader (Presuming Aiden is level 30, with th current wharf treasury, presuming -no- boosts, one would have to kill him 4 times over to bankrupt wharftown. This is not likely) And because it is -very- rare that a leader/s are willing to loose. Thus when wars end it is either due to either both sides just being tired of the situation, or one side being voted out.
So it's natural that the DMs will step in to make wars more exciting. It seems to me that Tophat set up an interesting battle, without the intent of it devolving into DM induced pvp. To make sure it remained equiel as possible. Not with the intent of making this Player Run conflcit a DM one, or Ending The War, but just to make an interesting event within the over all conflict.

Sadly it didn't pan out that way. But fun and interesting story has come out of it, an event Characters and players can speak of as ineresting and exciting. Rather than sitting in some guildhouse/settlment calling the other side 'big poopy heads' ad nausum.

But at the end of the day what it comes down to is this - You can have DM interaction, but if you get it you must accept that it will not always go your way, and that you may be tipping the scales against you, as well as for you.

Or you can not have Dm interaction, which is fine. But don't go crying when everything is gettng dull.

[DM_Tophat]

[disclaimer-padded-out caveat-filled preamble and eight paragraphs of pre-emptive apologies regarding putting a contentious question and personal opinion on the forum]

Now that that's out of the way

that having opposing factions with so many numbers on each side will just detract away from the story and turn into a PVP slog, thus I'll work out a better way to finish this off.

I actually do have to question you: why do you feel it's your responsibility to do this? This is a player conflict, not a DM plot. It may have gotten its claws in other DM plots, since Cordor's upheavals (that seem to have vanished) were believed by our characters to mean Cordor's in a weak spot, but other than that this should, in my opinion, leave you and yours to just oversee battles and lend a hand/flavour equally. Am I wrong, or is it now the onus of the DM team to press a schedule on wars?

EDIT

Moreover, people losing due to lag or crashes happens all the time and is usually filed under WBTHTGA. Why is it different now?

holy shit

No you are absolutely right. Cordor was not attacking Wharftown due to the player conflict happening, it was due to the heir plot. I've no intentions of involving myself in the player plots, except maybe for flavour if said plot is pushed by players at the time and I'm just throwing sprinkles.
Sorry for the confusion. Please proceed with your scheduled conquest.

[Recite the Sins]

Okay, so I can definitely see why that's causing some confusion. Except the distinction is not and will not be respected ICly, nor should it, since nothing happens in a vacuum.

It's just that you've essentially deployed a Council-backed thousand-man army against their current war target.

That carries enormous implications. We lost colossally in this battle, which WILL be carried over in terms of determining the player conflict without regard for whether or not you clear up "why" it happened, hence the particularly high tempers at the moment. It really does feel like we're expected to lose, now, since we can't possibly hope to wage a player war against Cordor when they're capable (doesn't matter if the DMs would do it or not, their military capability's been displayed very clearly now) of deploying a colossal army against a fishing town's junta and a waterlogged castle of war criminals. And if we just press on with some weird dichotomy between what's valid when a DM's there, and isn't otherwise, then we're going to look like we're not respecting IC consequences.

Simply put, it's an exceedingly discouraging and awkward position to be in, and I've lost a good chunk of drive to play, at least for now.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Okay, so I can definitely see why that's causing some confusion. Except the distinction is not and will not be respected ICly, nor should it, since nothing happens in a vacuum.

It's just that you've essentially deployed a Council-backed thousand-man army against their current war target.

That carries enormous implications. We lost colossally in this battle, which WILL be carried over in terms of determining the player conflict without regard for whether or not you clear up "why" it happened, hence the particularly high tempers at the moment. It really does feel like we're expected to lose, now, since we can't possibly hope to wage a player war against Cordor when they're capable (doesn't matter if the DMs would do it or not, their military capability's been displayed very clearly now) of deploying a colossal army against a fishing town's junta and a waterlogged castle of war criminals. And if we just press on with some weird dichotomy between what's valid when a DM's there, and isn't otherwise, then we're going to look like we're not respecting IC consequences.

Reach out to us Cordor/Guldorand/Myon people OOC to figure out what is the best and most fun way for all of us to settle this. Without trying to speak for the whole Island Alliance, here are some suggestions.

We can always take this down a notch and continue it as a series of small battles until we all get bored of it. Or we can take it as a devastating battle loss on your part, but get busy with our own problems and end the war through that. IC and OOC Cordor council and the Guard was looking for ways to end this war quickly (there is just too many players unhappy with wars in general).

OOC, I could not care less if Cordor comes out as a victor. I would be perfectly happy to see this battle as a dividing factor between characters in the alliance which would lead to dissolution of the same - in a way a loss for us. After all, all these goodly people just caused a major destruction in a settlement that probably caused many innocent deaths. IC this already led to a lot of infighting. That should be enough for us to take a step back and reevaluate our IC morals.

Just throwing it out there. Maybe we should continue this through PM's?

[Yma23]

It really does feel like we're expected to lose, now, since we can't possibly hope to wage a player war against Cordor when they're capable (doesn't matter if the DMs would do it or not, their military capability's been displayed very clearly now) of deploying a colossal army against a fishing town's junta and a waterlogged castle of war criminals.

I don't get it? What changed?

Let's say I stab a PC before ten NPC guards. And then those Ten npc guards step up and beat my character down, as there was a DM on and present at the time.

Do I then go 'But I wouldn'ta stabbed that guy if I'd known that hte npc's would step in!'

Because... that seems to be what you're saying? Sorry am I misunderstanding?

[Recite the Sins]

Cordor's military might was an unknown factor, and it was also believed that their actual defensive forces/Patrician/Oversee/whoever the hell it is now wouldn't get involved outside of the city.

Now it's very obvious they have a colossal army and the will to use it outside their borders.

That's what changed. The fact DMs wouldn't do it for PCs isn't something that should be factored in IC.

[DM_Tophat]

Okay, so I can definitely see why that's causing some confusion. Except the distinction is not and will not be respected ICly, nor should it, since nothing happens in a vacuum.

It's just that you've essentially deployed a Council-backed thousand-man army against their current war target.

That carries enormous implications. We lost colossally in this battle, which WILL be carried over in terms of determining the player conflict without regard for whether or not you clear up "why" it happened, hence the particularly high tempers at the moment. It really does feel like we're expected to lose, now, since we can't possibly hope to wage a player war against Cordor when they're capable (doesn't matter if the DMs would do it or not, their military capability's been displayed very clearly now) of deploying a colossal army against a fishing town's junta and a waterlogged castle of war criminals. And if we just press on with some weird dichotomy between what's valid when a DM's there, and isn't otherwise, then we're going to look like we're not respecting IC consequences.

Simply put, it's an exceedingly discouraging and awkward position to be in, and I've lost a good chunk of drive to play, at least for now.

Valid point.
Sadly this is an unintended consequence of what happened.
It sounds to me as if a good way to counter balance this would be present your own team with the IC visual of a similarly large force you could (from an RP point) call on if Cordor pulls out their big guns again.

I'm happy to work with Wharftown alliance to do that if that will make things easier from an IC perspective. Otherwise i'm open to other ideas, either here or via PM.

@YMA
I'm quite certain he is simply going off the basis that nobody ever expect Cordor to go full scale war mode with their own army. Now that possibility is from an IC light capable of happening, he does have a valid argument.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Cordor's military might was an unknown factor, and it was also believed that their actual defensive forces/Patrician/Oversee/whoever the hell it is now wouldn't get involved outside of the city.

Now it's very obvious they have a colossal army and the will to use it outside their borders.

That's what changed. The fact DMs wouldn't do it for PCs isn't something that should be factored in IC.

Good points...

Can we turn this to work against Cordor somehow?

[Rwby]

Yes, that's probably a better put version of some of the upset I've tried to convey to you in PMs, Tophat. Arelith has always been very 'PCs do stuff. Has Concequences' The world, while existing, is a background to the conflict between the PCs. Now you've picked up part of that world and dropped it repeatedly on some PCs and everyones a little sure how to react. We can fight a war with PCs, but we can't fight a war with the DMs.

Suggestions for resolving that are tricky. I don't think they should come from ourselves, so much as from the Cordorian players. Otherwise we'll end up upsetting them when you intentionally try to balance the scales, as opposed to unintentionally balancing them and that's escalation.

Some concequences for the Cordorian side would be nice, though. We killed a lot of epic level NPCs. Theoretically, a lot of Cordorian navy was apparently destroyed. This having some sort of long term IC concequence and knowing the risk that if Cordor does go all stomph on WT again, losing even more men and ships could get really bad.

Perhaps a third party NPC force is threatening Cordor and Cordor has to deploy it's forces to keep them at bay, leaving just the Cordorian PCs to wage the rest of the war themselves?

[MowerQueen]

I'm just asking based on my very limited information from overhearing some shouts, but wasn't there a pirate force "equal if not greater" than Cordor's navy? I thought that was Sencliff, TBH. Maybe not. I don't know anything. Carry on.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Some concequences for the Cordorian side would be nice, though. We killed a lot of epic level NPCs. Theoretically, a lot of Cordorian navy was apparently destroyed. This having some sort of long term IC concequence and knowing the risk that if Cordor does go all stomph on WT again, losing even more men and ships could get really bad.

From my end I would LOVE to treat this as Pyrrhic Victory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) on our end, with Cordor's navy losses forcing us to fall back fully. You just have to persuade the others in Cordor.

[DM_Tophat]

Perhaps a third party NPC force is threatening Cordor and Cordor has to deploy it's forces to keep them at bay, leaving just the Cordorian PCs to wage the rest of the war themselves?

This is in effect what is likely about to happen.

From an IC point of view one could argue Cordor can't risk such an attack again, for as long as the "Pirate Queen's" forces patrol the seas engaging Cordorian ships. Cordor's military is certainly damaged after the assault, and even if they wanted to they likely couldn't counter-attack for any reason moving forwards for quite a while.

Of course the problem here is this needs to be more visible so people ICly can feel comfortable in carrying on their battles without fear of doom-army coming over the hills to retaliate.

I'll hop online soon and add some returning wounded soldiers in and around Cordor being tended to by healers and such. I'll also deliver a report to some officials in Wharftown about Cordor's losses, as this also seems like it may be a short term plan to balance the playing field.
The long-term plan will come into effect once this main event is over, so everyone understands fully IC that Cordor Higher-Government isn't going to get involved in settlement warfare.

[UUD-40]

Just from this topic, I think anyone can see that tempers are high and that there are a lot of reasonable frustrations all over this whole mess and from all sides.

Since this is the kudos forum, I'd like to complement both the staff and players who have managed to communicate about grievances without frothing unpleasantness. It's a good sign.

[Recite the Sins]

Just from this topic, I think anyone can see that tempers are high and that there are a lot of reasonable frustrations all over this whole mess and from all sides.

Since this is the kudos forum, I'd like to complement both the staff and players who have managed to communicate about grievances without frothing unpleasantness. It's a good sign.

I admit I'm being rather, ah, direct, but I feel it worthwhile to encourage polite candour that doesn't have to be taken personally, or meant personally. In this way I def want to thank those replying in this thread.

And those are some good ideas, Tophat/andthenthat - I'm actually already in frequent contact with a guard or two OOCly just to gauge the water temperature throughout, and slyly adjust tack if something seems to be getting a bit out of hand. But I do feel uncomfortable about any discussion regarding reaching a conclusion to the player conflict, if only because it'll have the distinct undercurrent of one side being victor over the other, no matter how unspoken. And that's a tad awkward to press across "sides".

[Lorkas]

72 AB KD spamming monster

I don't like that

[METAL BAWKSES]

72 AB KD spamming monster

I don't like that

Doesn't help that from my understanding NPCs don't suffer from lag the same way players do. >.>

But as other people said, even though some things may have gone wrong I thought there was a lot of really cool individual moments! Thanking the DMs for that!

[DM_Tophat]

Recite -

I've put a note by Alyss up on the Wharftown boards which I think should be enough to cover your current concerns?

Let me know if this isn't enough or what not.

[Recite the Sins]

Recite -

I've put a note by Alyss up on the Wharftown boards which I think should be enough to cover your current concerns?

Let me know if this isn't enough or what not.

<3