Arelith

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:04 pm**

Since you asked for further clarification - I think that remembering the Fugue at all is kinda ridiculous, honestly. How you died? I tend to roll with it being a period of time before death that I can't remember, but that's me personally (and it varies for dramatic effect, say an assassination - quick and brutal, difficult to remember in detail - compared to a drawn-out pvp).

You got people that said they could remember before. And they were mostly laughed off, because how do you remember what happened when you were dead? You're dead.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:11 pm**

Here's something that I've wondered about since the change to the rules, but that I never saw written anywhere, and that perhaps could help in the discussion:

Why was the change made in the first place?

What was the logic or motivation behind it?

More importantly, what perceived advantages should this rule introduce to the Roleplay environment of the server?

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:28 pm**

Daedin wrote:Here's something that I've wondered about since the change to the rules, but that I never saw written anywhere, and that perhaps could help in the discussion:

Why was the change made in the first place?

What was the logic or motivation behind it?

More importantly, what perceived advantages should this rule introduce to the Roleplay environment of the server?

I guess only I can answer this, as it was my doing. First off, my chief aim wasn't anything to do with what one remembers or not, as I said my own choice is generally not to, but neither have I personally witnessed any bad RP from this.

My approach was rather motivated by a few things.

Firstly, just whole world richness and lore. FR has a pretty decent death setting, and narrative. While some players had tried to RP the whole Wall of Kelemvor thing, it was very much at odds with what I considered a cartoon like death area, with a shabby 'your time has not yet come' explanation. I liked the idea of actually making it another plane, as it should be, alongside the existing ones. I also liked the idea of an IC indication of the -delete_character option.

Second thing was the whole OOC nature of the death area, to me it was often a let-off-steam, out of character playground, or an area where meaningful RP was kind of limited by the area theme itself.

Finally, the death changes. I really didn't like the previous (massive) XP loss for death. It motivated corpse bashing, was a huge demotivator to play for many that suffered it, and discouraged risk taking when dungeon crawling. Most of all, probably, was the OOC nature of Pvp (I'm going to bash them all the way back to level 1, or so they never level again - was something I personally had heard a few times). This isn't entirely related to issue being discussed though, other than to say that while looking at the penalties of death, I thought it would be fitting to change the death area alongside it.

As for remembering death, specifically. Somewhat foolishly I probably didn't fully take account of the silliness that could then spring up, as detailed above. I also thought it was a better call just to trust players to make their own decisions regarding their RP in this, rather than trying to police it. That is one of my guilding philosophies for Arelith, as a whole. I have a huge respect for the player base, and see great RP on a daily basis. I've never really been so keen on the 'you're doing it wrong' thing, and am rather trusting of players in general.

I didn't rule out further expansion of the fugue either, as a plane.

Finally I should say this issue of forgetfulness isn't a major deal for me, and from what I've read I can see the concerns very clearly. I've not witnessed any of this shabby post death RP myself, any more than I did before, but if that is now commonly happening then it is something to address.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:10 pm**

Expanding the Fugue to be a plan would be /really/ cool, but how would you balance it out for lower levels / higher levels, and if balancing isn't a factor what exactly would you do with it?

On the note of trusting players, I've seen equal parts horrible RP along with fantastic, majority would be average though, and average is prone to tilt when the player is distressed.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:52 pm**

Moonbro wrote:I agree. Remembering Fugue is immersion breaking and should be changed. It's bad enough I have to run through a maze.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:54 pm**

sporting1 wrote:It would also be apropriate if we had alternatives to just outright killing other pcs. Subdual systems for example, much like the one that automatically takes place in the Arena. It comes to mind that death should be something rarer, and far less trivial. It should feel like it is a burden, instead of something we can simply log out of to cool off and come back as if nothing took place.

I am alright with the xp hit, as I am with the current penalty of death. But there should be something to balance out the very low loss of exp.

You have alternatives to right to kill your foe in PvP. Hold spells, knock downs, disarms, and numerous of others. If subdual system is implemented, it should be set on side of target not attacker. So you could turn it off.

Remembering deatyh is fine, but there is a huge BUT.

The server is tiny.In Fr world you would be one of millions and you wouldn't prolly meet again that random party which killed you yesterday.

Not on Arelith. The game limits mean this party will often live doors next to you. It will mostly slip into never ending revenge as stated above.

Even when my character remembers it I mostly prefer not to speak (or write of it) of it as it creates very awknard sounding play.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:54 pm**

Wanted to chime in on this discussion with my opinion:

Maze is alright I guess, I just wish I knew where the lights are because it can be sort of grating pushing the fog of war along looking for a map note.

I don't think players should clearly remember their death. My stance has always been the hours leading up to one's death are forgotten or fuzzy, especially how the death actually happened, as the brain would need to somehow cope with the concept of death (by ignoring it/repressing it).

I like the idea of remembering feelings or maybe surreal experiences that death has to offer, but someone running up and saying "Don't trust this guy, he's actually a Cyricist murdering Snuggybear!" just kills it for me. It does a disservice to said Cyricist murdering Snuggybear from ever exposing himself as a Cyricist. Or anything along the lines of "Just tell me where you are, ill come raise you." is cringe-inducing. I get that people don't like death penalties or just want everyone to get along OOC, but the game is going to have conflict, and trying to get around the drawbacks of conflict also gets around the reasons why victory can be so sweet.

So if I had to pick, and I would like to believe that players wouldn't metagame their corpse's location or metagame other players on out-of-game channels (like "soandso is a Cyricist, really, he killed me"), I'd be more in favor of revamping it. Not do away with it completely, but something where the player might experience some surreal thing but can't quite put their finger on it. Character identities, or singing Kumbaya in the death area, nah. Don't like that.

EDIT: I also think Irongron makes a good point too: It's really in the hands of the players and how they want to RP. There has to be a level of trust in the player-base to do the responsible thing instead of the thing which benefits themselves the most, otherwise development of new content is going to be agonizingly difficult as we have to contend with a few players trying to find the next big imbalance/exploit/troll. The server is only as good as the players and devs allow it to be.

In a more general sense (off-topic), I don't mind if players like powerbuilding or munchkinning or having edgy characters or snowflakes or whatever. I just want players to have a certain level of self-control when it comes to imposing on other players their powerbuild/munchkinning/edgy character/snowflake and to not go around actively looking to exploit new features or to make the game a misery for others. When that happens, we have to go back and change it, balance it, or remove it, and that stops us from making new features. It's just not all that fair for the people who are waiting on other features.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm**

Irongron wrote: Wisdom and insight.

It all makes sense and, in truth, pretty much meets with not only what I thought was behind the change, but many of my opinions too.

I think I even made some suggestions over the years that echoed a lot of it.

The whole remembering or not remembering death thing..there're far more important things to worry about, and despite any personal opinions or views on it..I don't think I've actualy ever seen anything that bad in game, and what I have seen that I wasn't overly fond of, originated more in how death, as a whole, is hard to portray and relate to in a world of magic, and even more so on a video game.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:26 pm**

I once got accused of being bad because I refused to RP in the fugue.

Also, what's the rule on something silly like:

Adventurer A: Dang we died.
Adventurer B: Hold on I got a plan. I don't get hit hard by recovery so I'll just go through the light and recover our corpses.
Adventurer C: Surely you can't remember what happens in the fugue, right???

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:33 pm**

The Fugue should be a real place, if its going to be OOC area that you go when you die.. just remove it completely. The player dies and get a pop up on if they want to respawn. If they say yes, then they respawn at their respawn location. If they say no, than they sit there until they say yes. All chat is shut off except for the DM channel incase they have a bug and can't respawn. This prevents telling someone where your body is, or having your corpse talk.

If the Fugue is going to be a real place then it should be treated as an IC location. A place that you went to await judgement. The only things i would change here are two things, one removal of the respawn timer. Two when respawn a note is made that the gods are not done with you yet, indicating that the reason the player is alive at all is thanks to a god/gods. Even for people that have no deity the gods might have a purpose for them.. your character doesn't need to believe in the gods for the gods to believe in them.

Death and RP.. again it shouldn't be hard. PvE death.. no rules player decides. RPR can easily be adjusted for the whole I'll go and get our bodies rp line.

PvP death, that should fall under the 24 hour no RP rule between players and that means the player can't say who killed them until the time is up, nor can the player that did the killing talk about it for 24 hours (no claiming bounties, saying I killed so and so). If the players agree to move the rp along that is their choice, otherwise 24 hour moratorium on continuing the RP from either side. This makes sure outside parties can't get involved for 24 hours and makes certain that there is an actual cooldown period in the RP.

As for someone coming back to life that isn't out of the ordinary in the world our characters live in. Dying and returning to life would be normal and common for all but those marked. If anything a Marked character would be seen as something rare and out of the ordinary.. what do you mean bill isn't coming back? The gods bring everyone back from death. Not Bill, he was marked by the gods and won't be coming back. *cue funeral and sadness* Actually on the final death of a MOD it would be sort of neat to have a message appear on the server saying Message from <god>: <name> was marked by <god> and their destiny had been fulfilled. or something along those lines.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:51 pm**

Oh I have personally been unaware there was such a ruling >.> Makes no sense to me, anyway.

I don't mind RPing with people on the Fugue plane. But I still RP the event that lead up to death as a fuzzy thing, and no memory of Fugue plane, once I exit.

If I lose 8 points of all of my stats, I don't see how I can remember it anyway

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:50 pm**

First things first, I have a strong opinion that I feel needs voiced.

sporting1 wrote:. In the old days, remembering death was against the rules,

I wasn't here for the old days, but I can say, unless someone on the staff would like to correct me, that this is false. Note, I am NOT A DM, but this server has a grand total of 5 rules, plus individual rulings that are occasionally quoted from the forums/wiki. I will delete every character in my vault (except for Ast) right now if someone can quote me this as an official rule with a link to the source that doesn't have it overturned.

Daedin wrote:I received half a dozen tells from different people, some more polite than others, saying how I could not do that.

These people were lying to you. We can debate the merits of remembering or not remembering, but I am ashamed of the people who did this to you, because lying/misrepresenting the rules to try to force someone to take a path you want them to take is a much worse offense than an unintentional rule-break (which it wasn't, in the first place).

In my tabletop games, characters lying to characters is encouraged. Players lying to each other to influence play gets them evicted from the game, because that's not the sort of player I want anything to do with. It is the action of a toxic, self-absorbed person that wants to win at all costs, including the fun of everyone else at the table. And if you fall into this category, I don't care if I've offended you. Feel free to march your happy Snuggybear right on when you see my characters in game.

I personally think misrepresenting the rules to influence play on this server should result in level docks and bans, with the amount/duration cumulatively increasing until the person learns their lesson or is gone forever.

More directly on topic
http://www.realmshelps.org/faerun/plane ... lane.shtml

Real talk, now. What is this strangeness about remembering what happened when you're dead not making sense? This is NOT an atheist world. When you die, the universe doesn't stop for you. You discard your mortal coil, continue to be aware, and move on to another plane to be summoned by your god, recalled to your body, or absorbed by the plane/walls of the faithless.

You can even be kidnapped and abducted by fiends to be tormented for eternity, which can have a tremendous impact on the nature of your character.

With the correct spells/methods, it is even possible to go visit the fugue plane whilst still alive (although as mentioned in the link, there are a great deal of potential dangers and difficulties - not the least of which is trespassing into the domain of gods).

Seriously, in a world where spells like "speak with the dead," "resurrection/raise dead," "create undead," and "Legend Lore," exist, how is it that people remembering what happened to them up to the moment they died triggers so much disbelief?

Even In the real world people become clinically dead from injuries, and are revived. They can usually recall what happened to them unless it was from a massive head-trauma (and in such a case, I would be perfectly okay RP'ing 'fuzziness' about exactly what happened.)

You also have people who have near death experiences or who become clinically dead who come back to life that remember 'going into the light.' In the real world, this is much easier to dismiss. In Forgotten Realms, gods come down, grab the magic creation in your hands, and say "this is all wrong, let me help you with that."

The five cardinal rules should be enough to prevent the cheese people are talking about from occurring. If they aren't, the problem isn't with the lore that states people can remember, but with the nature of the players violating the Be Nice rule. Let's not ruin a bunch of potential fun and IC shenanigans just because of a few (Self-edit to comply with censoring) Snuggybear-hats, pretty please?

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:58 am**

Nobody can quote the old dev/DM team saying remembering anything in the fugue was against the rules because the old forum is down. But if an older DM feels like replying, they could confirm. I even remember people complaining about how the could go around that ruling by writing down what happened in the fugue so they could remember afterwards, it was overruled as a bad thing to do.

And it's not a debate of FR realism(lol) and Arelith shouldn't nor is following 100% canon, but what is stopping me or anyone else from using IC information in the fugue to the best advantage, what does it adds to RP quality?

It makes death more meaningless in the sense that no matter what, your character knows they'll just recover after death, they've been through it. "Oh, it's just this dumb maze, you wait some minutes and go through a light, boom, alive again."

video related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qxyNaoB3M

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:33 am**

Cortex wrote:Nobody can quote the old dev/DM team saying remembering anything in the fugue was against the rules because the old forum is down. But if an older DM feels like replying, they could confirm. I even remember people complaining about how the could go around that ruling by writing down what happened in the fugue so they could remember afterwards, it was overruled as a bad thing to do.

Yes, it was against the rules.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:43 am**

Kreydis wrote:Expanding the Fugue to be a plan would be /really/ cool, but how would you balance it out for lower levels / higher levels, and if balancing isn't a factor what exactly would you do with it?

On the note of trusting players, I've seen equal parts horrible RP along with fantastic, majority would be average though, and average is prone to tilt when the player is distressed.

G H O S T W A L K

Fight for your unlife or spend eternity as someones chair made from ectoplasm

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:17 am**

Cortex wrote:but what is stopping me or anyone else from using IC information in the fugue to the best advantage, what does it adds to RP quality?

The nature of my disagreement with your premise is centered around this. How about, if you're going to kill someone, take extra care you finish the job and it sticks. If there's even the slightest chance it won't, do everything you reasonably can to conceal your identity.

If the coma patient wakes up and points out his killer, it's not detracting from the story. The killer screwed up.

Killing people should be serious from both ends- not just the concept of dying needs to be taken 'seriously,' but also the concept of ending another person's life. There are all sorts of potential consequences. Getting found out is one of them.

We have a disguise system. We have polymorphing spells. If you're just some thug who doesn't care to disguise who they are, and one of your victims points you out, that's your bad, not theirs.

Seriously, if your character can't be bothered to make an attempt to conceal themselves when you go on a murdering spree, why would it be bad form on the parts of the people who come back to life to point the finger (shy of you inflicting some sort of head trauma in RP and coming to a mutual agreement OOC?)

DM Noxt wrote:
Cortex wrote:Nobody can quote the old dev/DM team saying remembering anything in the fugue was against the rules because the old forum is down. But if an older DM feels like replying, they could confirm. I even remember people complaining about how the could go around that ruling by writing down what happened in the fugue so they could remember afterwards, it was overruled as a bad thing to do.
Yes, it was against the rules.

...Well, then. Will post screenshots of my vault later. That's sad. Talic is probably one of the most well-equipped level six characters to ever exist. Out of curiosity, what time-frame was this in, because I know that shortly before the forum switch there was an entire thread about the fact that this was a shadow rule, and that you were free to remember, subject to not being cheesy, at your discretion.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:36 am**

You're talking remembering what happens before death, I'm talking about what happens during. In the death area.

Like Peppermint, I'm ambivalent on that aspect, and it's also not the point of this thread(I think?).

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:00 am**

I used to RP in the fugue, now I don't. Its become a silly place, and feels more like an elevator than death. Other people come in, people strike up a conversation, and then go their separate ways.

As for why you shouldn't be able to remember what happens in the fugue.. You aren't in your body there. You're a spirit. How are you recalling memories from being dead when your synapses in your physical brain weren't firing while you were dead? All the spells that allow the living to visit the fugue are incredibly complicated because its a DEATH PLANE. Its not fit for people who aren't dead or gods to be there.

Aside from the metagaming and sillyness, as well as the immersion breaking "Oh look, our entire party wiped, may as well walk into the light, see you in five. Sit tight, I'll get your corpse." RP, I like the fugue. The maze is pretty cool. It makes more sense for those of the UD that died(since, ya'know... underdarkers don't bury their dead) than the graveyard. Though I wish we had some way to delevel without futzing with the diety book. Used to be you could go unarmed and just punch death and walk away from your computer and come back later a level lower.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:32 am**

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I don't think you should remember the Fugue Plane.

I think it's a little more flexible about leading up to your moment of death. Was it in a war? Then you probably remember the war. Was it an epic confrontation with your archnemesis? You probably remember. Was it being randomly shanked in a back alley? You don't have a lot of details then.

+1

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:11 am**

Cortex wrote:You're talking remembering what happens before death, I'm talking about what happens during. In the death area.

I've played here on arelith for quite some time, even though my absence period is almost just as long. In the old days, remembering death was against the rules, simply because it rendered such things as an assassination pointless. Your character is killed, remembers the assailant, starts forming a payback, etc... Then the other guy endures the same, and we have neverending drama.

I was specifically addressing this sentiment when I said that. If Noxt was referring to the fugue, then hurray, I don't have to delete my characters. I do acknowledge that the fugue itself used to be against the rules to remember. Although I might clean house anyway and just leave Talic as an alt.

More on the subject... I'm confused. Exactly how is the situation counter-productive to 'good rp' in a way that the existing five rules don't already cover for? Isn't ruling against this simply needlessly violating realms lore and blanket-preventing all fugue-based RP?

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:58 am**

Septire wrote:...but the game is going to have conflict, and trying to get around the drawbacks of conflict also gets around the reasons why victory can be so sweet.

My apologies for going off topic a little but I think this relates.

I actually agree with what you said, and I'm not picking this out as a point of disagreement, but I wanted to add something that I think some forget or just don't share my perspective.

Losing should also have the potential to be awesome. Maybe it spawns a revenge plot that draws in a bunch of characters RP wise in an interesting manner, maybe it causes a dynamic shift in the direction of the character.

I think some players get too caught up in trying to make victory assured by riding the rules right to the line (and sometimes over). There is a difference in my mind in trying to start in an advantageous position and trying to start where victory is already assured.

There is a saying in another game I play, Eve Online. "Don't undock in a ship you're unwilling to lose". I think similar applies here. If defeat is going to be so onerous on you to ruin your day, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate things. Consider a way to use it to make something interesting.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:26 am**

What RP can be done in the fugue now that can't be done in the fugue if you can't remember what happens within it?

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:16 am**

Personally I'm fine with being able to remember death, the fugue or both. Not being able to remember death would be a pain because then I'd have to come up with some other reason for why I don't want to touch the door I know has a 60 damage lightning trap on it.

And I definitely come within the group of people who find the maze annoying. It was cool the first time, ok the second time, and boring from then after when I realized there was literally nothing in it to interact with except the exit portals, which makes the whole thing a rather pointless waste of time when it might as well just be a straight hallway to the life portal at the end of it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:56 am**

I have honestly never noticed any significant difference in RP before and after the change. The new maze is pretty cool looking, definitely better then the old Fugue. On the other hand, I kinda liked the xp penalty for respawn.
I am ambivalent about remembering/not remembering Fugue.
-V-

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:25 pm**

I don't mind being able to remember it. I think it opens up more potential for RP than before.
The only thing I have concerns with is the idea of people going "I'll go raise the corpse!"
But does that actually happen in-game? I feel like most people wouldn't be that casual about it. But I could be wrong.

Also I really agree with the idea of making killing serious on both ends.

As for a "realism" perspective for not remembering.... we're in a game. Spirits and souls are real, and have semi-tangible stuffs associated with them. Memory could easily be one. We can't really use real-life anatomy and physiology for the brain in justifying what characters can do with their brains all the time. I mean, magic works because they store spells in their mind and then it just goes away, at the base means of spell-casting. How the hell does that work?

Arelith

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