Economy Feedback

[msheeler]

there needs to be NPCs to remove the supply.

Ultimately it all boils down to this. If there is a means to move coin out of the system (specifically at the higher levels) then you start to equalize the whole system.

[Distant Relation]

-snip-

A post so good it brought me back from the dead. This is the perfect summation of everything that led me to slowly lose interest and reduce my playtime in Arelith until I eventually faded away.

Arelith's economy is a 'solved game'. The established factions know how to extract all the value and feed their closed inner RP circles. The only use they have for new players is as warm bodies for PvP and extra crafting points per day - preferably both.

The death of meaningful RP, the stale power balance of factions, and the shockingly unequal economy are are all manifestations of the same problem - a gross stifling of the agency of the little player under the shadow of these titanic, unmoving factions for whom the status quo is the only desired state.

To leave this with another thought to ponder - I would consider a deep change to how settlement taxes work. Right now settlement taxes are a ridiculously profitable source of income for the factions that control them. Thanks to (money driven) assassinations, this becomes a system that feeds itself, and once you are comfortably plundering the city for taxes you effectively become an oligarch, able to use your fortune to generate more fortune, and use that fortune to protect itself.

My thought: Most or even all of taxed income should not turn into gold, but into a new, settlement specific currency. Call it electrum bars, dinars, funtime tokens, whatever. This currency is what is used to pay for settlement resources, settlement services, DM events, what have you. Fake money, a reserve currency that can only be used for the settlement it came from, rather than being a revenue stream for factions to embezzle in its entirety.

And all that gold will automagically be extracted from the economy into a black hole. Passive inflation control.

[slayer 1.0]

I’ve recently just returned to Arelith after a long 10 year hiatus, so I’m not as deep in the works as some others here. The only thing I can offer is the changes I’ve noticed since I’ve returned from the Jj and Mithreas era that I feel has took some of the RP that I loved and remembered from back then and essentially brought me back after so long.

1. As much as I love the ability to level so fast, the grind to level back then was much slower. I feel this lead to all sorts of materials being needed such as iron, steel, even silver which seems useless these days. I remember the silver vein in the spires being a great achievement to reach it felt. It even made dungeon loot sell because instead of just thinking “ah I’ll just get those spell slots/stats in a few writs, I’ll save my gold” that +2 stat is actually worth something now it’s got time and work behind it. And not everyone and they momma could craft anything you needed, it took RP and connections to find someone high enough level to have enough points in the right craft to make what you needed.

2. The dweomcrafting or what I know it as, enchanting. Oh how I’ve longed for the moment I could be a master enchanter and when I returned I realized I could and very easily, at first I was excited about this change but I’ve noticed it’s watered down the RP and Economy. Back then it was a honor to be in the present of a master enchanter, these days everyone can enchant your gear to fullest fairly easily, let’s be honest. That’s lead to less people reaching out for these prized people and the market beings flooded with 5% gear instantly.

3. The surface is so peaceful, everyone gets along with everyone and everyone helps everyone. That’s great and all but sometimes I wonder if Paladins are friends with Bane worshippers these days. I remember the war system back in the day between settlements and it wasn’t the best but it did lead to some sort of meaningful Rp or atleast not completely pretend.

4. The overwhelming of shops. I understand the server did need more shops from what I remember but not this many, especially with the temp shops also being added. I understand that the meaning is “new players and everyone get a shot” but I think that is a lot of the problem, no offense. Not everyone is suppose to have a shot at everything. If you don’t have the time to catch a shop when it’s for sale then you can Rp with a shop owner about a partnership and seeking some of your goods in his shop. The Economy is connected to RP and the RP is connected to the economy. If everyone can do everything then why not just do it on my own.

I’ve see alot of talk about fairness but you just can’t have a complete “fair” world. It don’t happen in the real world and it don’t happen in games. Even the most simplest games don’t offer fair play.
You can not expect to put in less time and work into something than someone else and expect to stay on the same bar, and I’m a casual player that don’t get to play everyday. That’s just in anything you ever do.
You can have a world where things are right, such as no cheating or malicious act but as far as the “he has a shop and I don’t, that’s not fair” example well, I don’t see nothing unfair there, he just has the time and it finally paid off. It’ll pay off for me as well sooner or later just longer.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

As always, a well thought out response.

I would never say that a wipe for the sake of a wipe is a good idea. It needs to come on the back of a new, stronger vision for the server like you eluded too. And you are right, gold is far from the biggest problem on the server when it comes to the all-important replayability factor, but I do think it's the keeper at the gate blocking all the best solutions to the issues that are more important. My reasoning has nothing to do with envy of what the next guy has, but rather the explanations on why certain things that can't happen because it would just funnel to the top that are oft written when these conversations come up.

Anyways, I suppose I should have skipped bringing it up, since it's apparently an insane notion according to some. I personally think taking it off the table completely like that is a little insane, even if you consider it the nuclear option, but that difference of opinion could easily be explained by what we see when we look at Arelith. I see a good server that has the potential to be great and based on the last post it sounds like they see it as being as good as it gets.

Back to the abyss with me for now, see you guys and gals sometime next year when I get the itch again.

[Edens_Fall]

First, a special shout out to Arigards truth bomb. Very well written and sums up alot of feelings I too have had over the last year or so. I will add that the most fulfilling post 30 RP I have had to date on Arelith was being a IG historian. Uncovering the past actions and events of players to share with others. Though it turned into a bit of a double edged sword as I learned about past events and wonder why the current Arelith seems to lack that sort of life. An answer Arigard so provided in his well written response.

Now back to the main topic. I do like the idea that settlement leader's shouldn't have free access to the gold from taxes. How many of us have gotten rich from the kings coffers or simply emptied the account after the next election was called? I can almost guarantee alot of the wealth from entrenched factions comes or has come from city coffers at some point. Cutting off this cash flow would be wise choice. Instead replace the cities use of coin with something else or have the focus be on the resources. Honestly what is the use for taxes other then bidding on land brokage (which whatever faction wants the place should pay for rather then the commoners taxes), maybe paying staff, and avoiding a zero balance election vote?

[Amateur Hour]

You can not expect to put in less time and work into something than someone else and expect to stay on the same bar, and I’m a casual player that don’t get to play everyday. That’s just in anything you ever do.
You can have a world where things are right, such as no cheating or malicious act but as far as the “he has a shop and I don’t, that’s not fair” example well, I don’t see nothing unfair there, he just has the time and it finally paid off. It’ll pay off for me as well sooner or later just longer.

This touches on an important larger point. At a certain point, people need to be willing to sink in a certain amount of time per week if they want to have a character that levels, acquires gear, "plays the game as it is meant to be played" (as opposed to people who create characters who have exclusively RP functionality where their level literally does not matter). There's a difference between leveling slowly and leveling almost not at all; I had this problem with my first character, where I had a not-for-beginners build and kept having to spend more than I gained every time I went out because I died so much and struggled to find parties...beginner problems but they do exist.

What degree of time-sink should Arelith require for a character, played by someone who is not fine-tuned on optimizing, to be able to function on a basic level - that is, be able to afford rent on a cheap quarter/vault and be able to make back their running expenses and then some whenever they go on an expedition? Whatever that level is is what the new economy balance should be based on.

And maybe with this, we also need to consider a point where diminishing returns should be enforced, where 'materially productive' effort is not worth it and you're better off exploring something or forming relationships IC or even logging off? Is there even a way to do that?

[AstralUniverse]

*goes to contemplate over some netflix series*

Seriously tho good post Arigard.

[Azensor]

My thoughts on server/character wipes..why would you even continue on, what would be the point?

Because for me regardless of what I do or how far i go in the game if a wipe is used i'll constantly be worrying when the next one will hit its just.. not something i personally care for in a rp environment, this is assuming that everything that happened in the past is also wiped along with the server or character wipe.

[Hrothgar Bloodaxe]

Within a month of a "wipe", the same players who are ahead of the game now - would be right back ahead of the game once more with groups of level 30 characters - grinding themselves into the ground - pooling their resources together and then the rest of the server, playing casually is what? Left at level 15 with no gold to their name and even less player agency?

Everyone wants conflict and things to do but nobody wants to ever be in a situation they are not in control of - or lose the narrative to. These two viewpoints cannot exist together.

Arelith has a problem - but I wouldn't say it's the economy. It's a lack of edge. There's been so much focus on creating classes and mechanics and balancing, but there's been very little (outside of sailing - which is regional to a specific circumstance) focus on building mechanics for RP & things to achieve and build towards on level 30 characters outside of gold.

You can't have a healthy world that is immersive - that is meaningful - where conflict is driven by purpose and politics and have a world where everyone is in their comfort zone with zero imbalance at all times - where no decisions have cause or consequence - where no class/religion/race is constrained in any way and where everyone has access to everything and RP is simply about ultimately playing pretend - because in that situation all you will eventually get is stagnation and OOC relationships trumping IC decisions - there is no incentive for them not to and the RP in that scenario is 100% only based on how long players have the enthusiasm to keep up RPing for RPs sake alone.

The two are diametrically opposed -Ultimately if you want a world that has impact and meaning as a functional RP space - you need to commit to that vision and build the correct systems to support it.

Preach, brother, preach!
+1

[perseid]

Supply is through the roof, settlement resources are by now a legacy system, browsing player run shops causes eye-bleed, factions and OOC groups have stockpiled enough gold and resources to make the EU food mountain insecure, and veteran players simply rely on their Discord buddies to fix them up with anything they might need for that level 30 spreadsheet loadout, and ignore the in-game economy entirely.

I'm planning on some changes in this area, but before I do - have at it.

Tell me the problems you perceive with the economy, what causes them, and what changes you would make to fix it.

You also have my permission to panic about any badly-thought-out, ill-informed, ham-fisted changes you imagine I might soon be making - just try not to be rude or dismissive to one-another.

To go back to where you started with this then Irongron after what has been discussed so far?

I know I'm going to say some things that should be really obvious, but sometimes it helps to say them.

Settlement Resources: If this system is a legacy system, adjust it to make it more relevant, or remove it. Personally I'd be looking at two aspects; what happens to income for the district/city, and the extended warehouse. Put simply, players shouldn't be able to make money from donating goods to the city via a system; it should be something they have to do in person with an authorised member of the leadership. You want to donate? Go for it, no interaction required, but you want payment, got to see someone in person. And the money received for taxes and rent? Well, that's no longer accessible by the leadership, it's locked away by the overseers, so that the leadership has to cover any costs for the district/city themselves.
Why would anyone want to lead a district/city then?
Because of (a) prestige, (b) control, (c) keeping out others, and (d) under the table deals, if they're so inclined.
And if that means a district/city ends up NOT under control? Tax rates go up a decent chunk, and so do rents, meaning that it's in the best interests of those invested in a district/city to make sure someone is leading it.
In terms of the Extended Warehouse? I'd do away with it altogether, which then creates a market for players to sell resources in their stores.


Changing those two elements would go a long way to adjust player run stores, factions, and OOC groups.

Just on the topic of settlement resources as a legacy system, I will say that imo some of this is more of a culture issue. It's by no means easy to subvert a settlement's resources mechanically but imo it's a threat that people are able to ignore because pcs tend to play a little too nice in certain areas which creates a false sense of security. In the UD we recently witnessed Greyport have to lock down its resource management as a defensive measure against happenings in the Sharps that saw certain buy prices set low to allow for the mass exodus of district resources which were then being sold to Greyport at such volumes it was problematic. But usually you dont see the settlement itself being wielded as a weapon so no one thinks about it much.

[Lord Blacktooth]

Any kind of character wipe talk is server death territory - and it won't have any effect in the long run. All it would do is hit players who have invested a ton of time into Arelith that are in the middle. I know for me personally, it took me over two years and then months of applications to get the character concept I'm playing right now. There's no way I'd ever put that kind of time investment back into Arelith.

However, for the players who are ahead of the curve - it's going to do nothing, because what we are speaking about here has nothing to do with gold, but everything to do with player knowledge/networking/organisation and time investment.

Within a month of a "wipe", the same players who are ahead of the game now - would be right back ahead of the game once more with groups of level 30 characters - grinding themselves into the ground - pooling their resources together and then the rest of the server, playing casually is what? Left at level 15 with no gold to their name and even less player agency?

Are their problems with the economy? It's possible. There's probably too much gold flying around in player banks etc. Do some players end up in groups playing together? Sure. Are they as infamously exclusive and torch and pitchfork-ey towards other players as is being suggested in this thread? Not overly in my experience. I've flirted with a whole different bunch of factions over the past three years (including OOC) and I'm yet to find this secretive cabal that controls everything that is so inward that they refuse to do anything except sit in their own quarters RPing with themselves. Most users on discord are simply watching films/netflix or killing time whilst they try and find things to do to supplement their lack of IG purpose post 30.

I think this thread is not seeing the forest from the trees. Outside of being a trader - or part of a faction. Once you hit level 30 you realize after a few characters there's very little to actually do in Arelith. You either:

- Log in to run random runic dungeons
- Log in do casual RP - which without weight behind it (politics/intrigue etc) becomes stale very quickly - how long can we really be expected to log in for hours on end simply doing RP about how someone's day is going for example - or language lessons.
- After a while you either sit back and go... well might as well go and see what's in a runic chest - or you go out of your way to try and build some kind of conflict RP which inevitably leads nowhere - because nothing is actually achievable outside of short term PvP success - and 9/10 you end up worried that you're either going to be reported or that someone is going to be upset and you'll have to simply deal with wall of green text lasting hours for a five minute stretch of time.

Everyone wants conflict and things to do but nobody wants to ever be in a situation they are not in control of - or lose the narrative to. These two viewpoints cannot exist together.

Arelith has a problem - but I wouldn't say it's the economy. It's a lack of edge. There's been so much focus on creating classes and mechanics and balancing, but there's been very little (outside of sailing - which is regional to a specific circumstance) focus on building mechanics for RP & things to achieve and build towards on level 30 characters outside of gold.

If you want to play a persona and -be- an actual role within Arelith in the day to day life of a character that has actual mechanical backing there's only really a few things you can really do -

- You can be a trader - You can craft, you can provide a service/stack your resources and wealth. That's a distinctive role that you are able to be as a character
- You can be a trainer - a soldier/guard - You can take characters to the arena - train them etc - or question shady looking characters.
- You can be an explorer/dungeon delver looking for items/gems/ores etc etc.
- You can be a sailor.
- You can an assassin/information gatherer - but how much value does information actually hold within the world?

The above are roles that are actively mechanically supported by the game - where you can log in and say "Today I'm going to spend tonight performing this role to give my character purpose" - the majority of these roles revolve around hoarding and gold acquisition - or creating wealth.

The things you cannot do that have genuine functional backing - is actually log into your character as a priest/mage/rogue - whatever and have activities and purpose that are mechanically supported that create demand for those characters within the world. There are no ways mages can research new magic for example - or unlock secrets and create magical artifacts or create things that have impact within the world - we have the ritual system - which was a good step in the right direction - but ultimately these RP systems always seem to be held back by the proviso that they don't want to rock the status quo too much and upset players.

But the above doesn't correlate with meaningful RP, you need to rock the boat and make the world dynamic if you want purposeful RP to emerge & if you want demand for players to engage with each other to increase. If information gatherers/spies are going to be of use for example - their information has to actually have context within RP that leads to something tangible that has impact. Most players meet an "informant" at present and they instantly know OOC that they're just going through the motions - because whatever they commit their gold to - will simply not lead to anything substantial IG.

Imbalance is not always bad. In fact imbalance is required for a world with it's moving parts to function. If all items can be found everywhere at all times - why do characters need to move out of their comfort zone to challenge themselves to find things in places like Andunor? All shops are the same - everywhere - all cities are simply backdrops unchanging and immutable. There is no RP about resource distribution - or political intrigue around how to undermine Brog over Cordor - or ways to cripple the Underdark - because ultimately it cannot happen - so if that RP exists it is ultimately fruitless and toothless and over time players understand this and then begin to commit less and less of their time to actually doing the RP - because it leads absolutely nowhere - it's not mechanically supported.

As an example - When I played Gorehound - we took out the Dreadnought and some of the crew left mid journey - it left us in a precarious position where if we were to be attacked - we would likely be sunk. Low and behold the Cordor Flagship turned up and starting bombarding us and we were forced to beach the Dreadnought at Red Dragon Isle for a day or two and abandon it. That lead to 1-2 nights of planning of how we were going to recover the ship - roleplay of trying to search for sailors in the UD literally ANYONE with sail who could help us and then eventually a rescue mission. That was all caused because of imbalance - of us not having the correct tools for the job at the moment in time and so we were actively forced to build connections outside of the formed crew of the ship to find others who could functionally support us. There was no grand PvP - but there is cause/consequence and risk/reward & ultimately it was all caused by imbalance and the RP that was generated was not "pretend" but actual meaningful.

If every character can do everything - there is absolutely no need for roles like priest - rogue - ranger etc to exist outside of the abilities on their character sheet for PvE and PvP - and that doesn't mean you need to gate keep content - simply build things into the world that give these classes purpose that supplement a basic level of engagement that any player can achieve - systems for rogues - systems for rangers (pathway networks/places only rangers can escort you through) - areas for these classes where they can engage and find meaning - rogues guilds - ranger camps - temples - that serve more of a purpose than being a backdrop etc etc - and this extends to the economy likewise - but the crux is these systems cannot simply be optional. If it was only optional for myself on Gorehound to find mechanical sailors - would i have had to actually reach out and make those connections? No. Would i have done so regardless? Maybe - but not to the extent I had to, because I was constrained into needing those roles and making those connections.

If Brog - Cordor - Guldorand - Andunor and other settlements existed within their own ecosystems - with their own positives and negatives and imbalance that players needed to work with - leadership that mattered - policies that mattered - politics that mattered - crime syndicates peddling illicit goods that have tangible mechanical reasons to be valuable and on top of that there were functional reasons for rangers/rogues/priests/mages/druids etc & other classes to truly be required on a day to day basis - then the day to day RP would change from characters standing around idly talking about whatever they can think of to fill the time to actual true RP with weight that effects the world and involves a whole host of roles/professions and different character skills.

If goals were able to be achieved that changed the world - players would commit to that RP - but the bottom line is players need to want to lose control for this to happen - they need to be happy to lose - to be placed outside of their comfort zone - to be in conflict - to accept bad things might happen to their characters and the server needs to create an environment where the quality of the RP systems that are offered are the focal point over builds/classes and ultimately luxury content that whilst nice and very much appreciated - ultimately does not create a strong foundation of a world with true character agency.

You can't have a world that has real weight to it through RP and at the same time please every player across the board OOC - it simply won't happen. If you have a world that pleases everyone - then over time all you're going to notice is that it will start to lose its grander narratives RP will not flow as naturally - events will not have strong RP reasoning behind them and players will tend to band together - to find the interaction they are looking for within the world in other areas.

If the glass ceiling stops characters at level 30 from truly being able to achieve meaningful world change - then players need to fill their time and supplement their lack of true purpose with purpose elsewhere and the easiest way to do that to feel part of something that matters is to play with other people and fill that time with connection OOC - and if those players (outside of a leader being assassinated and losing their elected position) can never be toppled from their geographical location by IG effort or action - clever RP or politics because the systems do not allow for it - are we really surprised that players become used to the equilibrium and hold onto properties and positions for so long? Once you gain such a position as a group or character - at present it's almost the top of the mountain - you have achieved the most you ever will achieve - what impetus is there to try something new? What risk is there of making a bad decision and losing what you have?

The communities that have been created by Arelith & the staleness that is being discussed here has not been done so in spite of it - but by the direction and vision of the server as a whole & a disassociation from the immersion of the world & it's frameworks. Would there still be discords if there was more on the line? Sure - of course - but there would be much more opportunity for characters, roles, function and reasons for individual players on the day to day to be able to log in and connect with others outside of having to be part of some huge political faction? Absolutely.

You can't simply nuke everyones gold reserves and expect it will solve these problems, because at the heart of the problem is not gold - or the economy - it's a lack of purpose encouraging players to seek each other out and engage with the strengths and weaknesses of their own character.

If you want strong RP to be created that is inclusive for the roles of characters - focus on building systems that provide for it - that provide cause and consequence - frameworks within which players need to sit and act - that gently nudge them away from their friends and their constant circles towards RP prioritized expectations that require them to fulfill the role they have chosen to pursue - a good example would be Druids + necromancers. If you don't want two OOC friends crowbarring the lore so that every single necromancer is an enemy except the one played by their friends and suddenly there's a different set of rules mechanically enforce these rules in the world in a clever way that provides them with scenarios that they simply cannot ignore.

Does the above limit absolute player choice? Absolutely - but it's there for a reason - to instill the template for which you have decided to play within so that the world remains healthy and rich with the right kind of context and not OOC driven biases that water things down until the point where IC decisions become extensions of OOC decisions.

You can't have a healthy world that is immersive - that is meaningful - where conflict is driven by purpose and politics and have a world where everyone is in their comfort zone with zero imbalance at all times - where no decisions have cause or consequence - where no class/religion/race is constrained in any way and where everyone has access to everything and RP is simply about ultimately playing pretend - because in that situation all you will eventually get is stagnation and OOC relationships trumping IC decisions - there is no incentive for them not to and the RP in that scenario is 100% only based on how long players have the enthusiasm to keep up RPing for RPs sake alone.

The two are diametrically opposed -Ultimately if you want a world that has impact and meaning as a functional RP space - you need to commit to that vision and build the correct systems to support it.

Like so many others have pointed out.
This post describes the actual problem perfectly.

Wel said. +1

[Nurel]

My thoughts on server/character wipes..why would you even continue on, what would be the point?

Because for me regardless of what I do or how far i go in the game if a wipe is used i'll constantly be worrying when the next one will hit its just.. not something i personally care for in a rp environment, this is assuming that everything that happened in the past is also wiped along with the server or character wipe.

Traditionally, character wipes occur to facilitate BIG systems changes which render vault files obsolete. A vault wipe never "fixes" anything, it is a necessary evil and only happens when all other options are exhausted.

Why?

Because wipes kill server playercounts. You can expect at least 50% of the active playerbase to quit the server after a wipe, no matter how good and meaningful systems updates the wipe brings.

[magistrasa]

Why are we still talking about vault wipes? It's been said multiple times now that it's not an option on the table so it's a completely unproductive line of conversation. Save the oxygen for the main topic - this is an Arigard appreciation thread and all comments are required include unequivocal praise for their very good post.

[Nurel]

Why are we still talking about vault wipes? It's been said multiple times now that it's not an option on the table so it's a completely unproductive line of conversation. Save the oxygen for the main topic - this is an Arigard appreciation thread and all comments are required include unequivocal praise for their very good post.

People seem to think this is some kind of viable option to make the game better. It is not entirely unreasonable. Not everyone here has been playing the game online for 20 years or has had their favorite world crumble to dust after a wipe. Those of us who know the actual realistic implications of a vault wipe need to take time and instruct newer players because they take offence when their opinions are discarded without a thorough explanation.

[Richrd]

My thoughts on server/character wipes..why would you even continue on, what would be the point?

Because for me regardless of what I do or how far i go in the game if a wipe is used i'll constantly be worrying when the next one will hit its just.. not something i personally care for in a rp environment, this is assuming that everything that happened in the past is also wiped along with the server or character wipe.

Traditionally, character wipes occur to facilitate BIG systems changes which render vault files obsolete. A vault wipe never "fixes" anything, it is a necessary evil and only happens when all other options are exhausted.

Why?

Because wipes kill server playercounts. You can expect at least 50% of the active playerbase to quit the server after a wipe, no matter how good and meaningful systems updates the wipe brings.

First off, will there be people who quit? Yes, of course. But only a small minority of the playerbase. There are people who cling so hard to their Deviantart-OC-do-not-steal level characters that they'll get actually traumatized by that character being gone and never again accessible, to the point where they'll quit Arelith forever. I'm sure that even if you feed those people infinite major awards each as a way of recompense they'd still refuse to turn back to the grave of their beloved OC.
But frankly those are usually the same people who've had the same characters before I started out years ago on Arelith (don't be confused by this forum account's lifespan, this is not my original one), the same ones who break my immersion by not aging a day, like they are some actual godlike being. Stale, immersion breaking, part of the economy issue we talk about here. Are all of these veteran characters exactly the same and do they all contribute to the economical issues on Arelith? No. But I'd wager to say that most of them do.
All in all an acceptable loss >IF< a vault wipe comes with major changes to the leveling speed and the ways currencies can be spent on Arelith. Emphasis on the latter, because I don't think the issue lies in the way money can be made but rather in that there's too little to spend it on. No need for me to go into the details here of why, plenty of amazing examples have been provided in this thread by others already and I'd just be repeating their points.

Secondly, total vault wipes are a rather rare thing in NWN. But in other games they are completely normal. And they're always done to fix those games' situations too, especially whenever major changes come in. Escape from Tarkov is a game that would entirely fall apart without regular resets. MOBAs like League of Legends soft-reset their "economy" of where you are placed in the ranking system every season. Hell, even my Rimworld saves are going to experience a wipe soon seeing as there's a new expansion on the horizon. My main save in that game is close to two years old and I know every single one of my little pawns in that save, their history and what they've been through. Yet I'll welcome the opportunity to experience something new and fresh by saying my farewells to a save that, just like you would with a NWN character, I've spent hundreds of hours in.


But hey, ultimately I am on the wrong side here. Because the server owner has clearly stated that "there will NEVER be any kind of vault wipe on Arelith". That he considers it "genuinely insane". An "assault against the very thing that gives Arelith its value; the community". And while he probably didn't mean to insult anybody by it I do think it's quite lovely to be indirectly called insane and ready to be institutionalized for thinking that a vault wipe would help the server.

So yeah, we can all forget about a wipe of any kind. I for one wish you all luck, to me at least this entire discussion of Arelith's hard hitting economical issues (most of which are tied to grandfathered riches and old, set in OOC cliques) is now completely dead, just like Arelith's plenty other big issues that I've only experienced ten times over when I returned to give the server another try.

[MischeviousMeerkat]

My thoughts on server/character wipes..why would you even continue on, what would be the point?

Because for me regardless of what I do or how far i go in the game if a wipe is used i'll constantly be worrying when the next one will hit its just.. not something i personally care for in a rp environment, this is assuming that everything that happened in the past is also wiped along with the server or character wipe.

Traditionally, character wipes occur to facilitate BIG systems changes which render vault files obsolete. A vault wipe never "fixes" anything, it is a necessary evil and only happens when all other options are exhausted.

Why?

Because wipes kill server playercounts. You can expect at least 50% of the active playerbase to quit the server after a wipe, no matter how good and meaningful systems updates the wipe brings.

First off, will there be people who quit? Yes, of course. But only a small minority of the playerbase. There are people who cling so hard to their Deviantart-OC-do-not-steal level characters that they'll get actually traumatized by that character being gone and never again accessible, to the point where they'll quit Arelith forever. I'm sure that even if you feed those people infinite major awards each as a way of recompense they'd still refuse to turn back to the grave of their beloved OC.

Once the genie is out of the bottle there's really no putting it back in. With how fast balancing changes are, having to factor in that my sonic OC is going to get wiped on top of my build being invalidated is going to make me look for a more stable server.

I don't respect my time all that much because I play NWN obviously, but I think that'd be my personal limit of having my character invalidated by mechanics for the 9000th time in a mechanic-focused server and then the chance of another wipe happening because the same OOC groups continue to keep "winning" at Arelith too much.

[Irongron]

The vault wipe topic, as others have said should really be dropped now, as I and others have said.


And to clarify, by insane I meant for me to fo it, I meant no insult to those I would like, and proposed such a thing.

Was 'genuinely insane' strong? Possibly, but for me it would feel like blowing up my house with TNT because someone left a wet towel on the floor after taking a shower.

Anyway, last chance for economic feedback, will be fixing the plan and locking in a couple of days.

[Tabby]

Why are we still talking about vault wipes? It's been said multiple times now that it's not an option on the table so it's a completely unproductive line of conversation. Save the oxygen for the main topic - this is an Arigard appreciation thread and all comments are required include unequivocal praise for their very good post.

Agreed, waste fingermuscle to keep on that topic.
I really want some good ideas on settlement economies.. something that can make it more interactive with other settlements.
Perhaps more features can be turned on, with cost of resources.
A container that spawns free potions (near the bar) that will have a yearly consumption.
Fasttravel from city to city via local transport company, payed by the city.
Convert Food Resources to Flour, Spices, for all those new lovely crafts that can be made. Let them be sold at the NPC aswell..
Have a settlement use the Metal to give the NPC smith materials to have steel weapons for sale..

When i was Trade Tzar i wanted more tools in order to do some settlements Rp

So many ideas can be made, and everyone is so negative

[Nurel]

I reiterate my suggestion in a concise manner:

Remove the Lottery System from Shop real estate. Good shops need to be owned by good merchants, and the playerbase needs a powerful incentive to cherish the shop they own, without looking to replace it.

Retain the # of shops currently available on Arelith. More real estate for players to have can never be bad.

[-XXX-]

There's no point discussing vault wipes after Irongron stated that wasn't being considered as an option.

What's worth addressing here is the core problem that leads to players calling for such radical solutions, which does concern Arelith's IG economy - character longetivity and turnover.

This is a rather polarizing topic as Arelith's player base seems to be split between those who prefer to rapidly sift through characters and those who embrace the sandbox aspects of the server.


Firstly, we should acknowledge that both sides of this argument are valid, as there really isn't any prescribed or "correct" way to play the game.

Secondly, both sides have expressed some very valid pet peeves and criticisms regarding the other side of this argument - that's why this topic can be so polarizing.

Thirdly and most importantly regarding the topic at hand - these playstyles are utterly incompatible within any kind of IG commerce.
Once the economy gets fine-tuned for players who like to periodically roll their characters every 2-3 months, those who do not do that inevitably end up with fabulously rich toons.
On the other hand, if the economy gets fine tuned to accomodate the latter playstyle, things like gear and property become prohibitively expensive for new characters.


Looks like there is need for incentives here:
a) incentives to spend IG wealth on other things than gear and property; preferable flow of wealth here would be 1) rich -> new, or 2) rich -> nowehere.
City officials funding writs out of their own pockets could've been interesting: it'd give them a means to use their wealth to manipulate the player character presence on the server, as suddenly some writs would become more interesting than others.

b) incentives not to roll one's character immediately when an award becomes available. I dunno how to achieve this, but the current rate of character turnover is straight up detrimental to any attempts at organically formed RP - while there's no way of making players stop using discord, the current lvling pace makes its use virtually mandatory.
There's no wonder players rely on their OOC buddies for handovers, because any legit ways of earning endgame gear are simply out of sync with the lvling pace and they have neither the patience nor the will to spend the time and effort to get it that way.

[Distant Relation]

If I have any kind of last advice, as a player who has admittedly lapsed and no longer actively plays, is that everyone here will be trying to draw their own line where it protects their own interests best first and foremost.

Where possible, try to find the middle line and achieve some kind of balance. Nuking the entire shop bid system would just return us to the same problems we had before, swapping one set of troubles for another. Instead, consider something like allocating a number (6? 12?) of shops in each settlement to be administrated directly by the settlement leader / trade minister, existing outside of the shop bid system.

Understand that the 4+ year calcified player character with immense amounts of character power, institutional wealth and access to resources unreachable for the average player isn't likely to want to rock the boat too much, and that players who've seen only the short end of the stick will want to rock it too much. Simply showering established characters with benefits for being established and outlets for their wealth will only reward them for having played the long game, while upturning the whole apple cart for the benefit of people who won't even put in the effort is only going to do more harm than good.

Just as much as giving younger characters reasons to stay after reaching reward-potential age, we absolutely, 100% need these ancient power structures upturned. Wittingly or not, any player character who has been a part of all/most major events for the past 4+ years of storyline is very much a part of the problem.

And finally, please please do not disregard Arigard's post. Everything else is small problems, cosmetics, and individual concerns bundled into a class action. Arigard touched the real meat of the matter, which to summarize incredibly poorly comes down to 'noone is special when everyone is special'. A new character, a new player, a new story bring nothing to established factions because there is no mechanical distinctiveness to play off of. We've heard pleas regarding how nearly everyone can be a master at the basin nowadays. As much as I love Loremaster, Loremaster secrets have much to answer for after having made those RP cookies so widely available. In many ways, we are all the same now, our potential is immensely interchangeable, and so all that remains is: How good are you at pvp, how willing are you to log in every 2 hours to spend crafting points, and are you willing to surrender your individual story to join the borg-like collective that the megafactions represent? Because everything is ephemeral, and noone cares about one's individual story if they assume you're going to be gone 2 weeks from now.

[-XXX-]

100% need these ancient power structures upturned. Wittingly or not, any player character who has been a part of all/most major events for the past 4+ years of storyline is very much a part of the problem.

You see, it's precisely statements like these that aren't really constructive.

Firstly, it's a two sided argument. While players might feel very strongly about leaning one way or another, neither of the sides is inherently right or wrong here. The statement itself could easily be countered by stating that "any player who rolled their character after [insert arbitrary period of time] is very much a part of the problem".

Secondly, this issue requires a systemic solution. It's not the role of the players to police or shame their peers into conformity. It's only a matter of time before players start shaming others to gain advantage for themselves if that's ever allowed or deemed acceptable.

[Distant Relation]

Allow me to clarify and "make constructive" my criticism, then.

I have no skin left in this game. I'm a lapsed player. A total vault wipe would be 100% to my benefit, as it would allow me a completely fresh start on what is easily the most vibrant NWN RP server available.

Yet, I am able to recognize that what is good for me is not the same as what is good for Arelith. I am taking a step back, setting my personal wants aside, and trying to focus on what I would need to become interested in Arelith once more.

I am arguing that unfortunately, the stagnation of the upper echelons of the big name characters is a part of the problem. How much of a part? Unclear. Some, at least, is my argument. I also said "wittingly or not", because I wished to make clear that I do not think this is a grand plot, that a select cabal of characters or players is doing this on purpose. Rather, I do believe this is simply a natural equilibrium that we have arrived at given the system that Arelith represents.

Yes, I do feel everyone has to be willing to lose a bit, and give a bit, in order to make Arelith better. If that's unconstructive of me, then I don't know what else to say.

[Irongron]

As I said in the first post; feedback is great, getting panicked about my intentions also fine, but it's great when we can stay civil with one another.

I haven't seen any post on this thread that isn't genuinely trying to help.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

And to clarify, by insane I meant for me to fo it, I meant no insult to those I would like, and proposed such a thing.

You're good man. I realize I probably sounded more butthurt than I intended, or at the very least feel now. I have strong opinions and use over the top language from time to time myself, I would be an Snuggybear if I didn't afford you the same luxury.

And since I'm here anyways-

There's no wonder players rely on their OOC buddies for handovers, because any legit ways of earning endgame gear are simply out of sync with the lvling pace and they have neither the patience nor the will to spend the time and effort to get it that way.

This is actually incorrect, or at least some aspects of it are. I have never relied on ooc buddies and have had one character that was gifted a nice item that essentially amounted to a plus 3 ac cloth armor unless you are a sailor, and I made sure to donate valuable things back to the crew in order to balance it out some. I've always insisted on paying for crafted materials, scrolls, ect, and I have never had an issue being geared with all the top end stuff and half my runes by the time I am 30. I don't slow roll the level process either, usually hitting 30 in a month and a half on my latest characters or there abouts.

The thing is this just adds to the problem. Because if I took your gold early on to save me gold I will get eventually anyways, I am all but guaranteed to have more gold then I know what to do with within a few months down the line. This is how the problem keeps ballooning out of control.