Enchanced Edition - Discussion

[Invader_Nym]

Nobody wants to be billed 20 dollars for nothing either, which is also very simple to understand. Trying to create some weird scenario to justify the cost seems to me needlessly complex.

[Nitro]

You might not get a lot back for it if you're not experiencing many of the myriad technical problems plaguing the client currently. Graphics wise it's going to look largely the same, but the move to a shader based engine means that it will be a lot easier to make pretty looking content in the future. Modern widescreen support with proper scaling is a godsend, unless you have a small screen. And there's other issues like the master server timeout, shiny water killing everything, random crashes, really poor performance when there's many entities in the same area and so on.

If you haven't experienced many of the issues yourself, then I can see why this doesn't feel worthwhile, but for those of us who do have technical problems up the wazoo it's fantastic.

And that's not to mention all the things it'll enable our wonderful Arelith devs to do. Things that we previously couldn't change because they were hardcoded into the game there's now actually a chance to get fixed. All the hundreds of bugs and odd quirks that bioware left in the game that we finally get a chance to fix.

All that I'd call worth 20$, and we're still quite a distance from launch, plenty of time to add new content, classes, races, feats etc. And for those who never owned NWN in the first place? Well, 20$ for the base game and both expansions is a pretty good deal in itself.

[SteelsSweets]

How does the Community Patch (CPP) fit into this?

We have been working very closely with Shadooow to incorporate portions of the Community Patch (also known as CPP or 1.71). We plan to continue incorporating fixes which will appear in future patches.

Maybe we will get new stuff eventually. From how I read it, there will be updates possible.

[Gods_Kill_People]

um...its not for nothing Nym, your missing the whole point of the update...

1. professional coders, devs, and the likes who are paid to problem solve issues generally around the clock.

2. Mechanical fixes the Devs of Arelith CANNOT do.

3. Server side support for more critical issues.

4. New upgrades we cannot possibly get without haks

5. Enhancements we cannot get without haks

6. Bugs that are from the game that DM's and Devs cannot fix are repaired

the list goes on. Literally try and look behind the scenes.

[Cortex]

I am certain that most people can agree that the announcement could've waited a little longer until they had more to show.

As for the post above, it should be noted that bar instancing, I can't think of something that couldn't be done already, with or without haks.

[Sab1]

So is EE mostly just visuals? My only issue if it's mostly just making things pretty and not adding new content ddown the road, seems a little blahhh for me. Sort of seems like giving a used car a new paint job.

[Brandon Steel]

The amount of people kicking up a stink over $20 is absolutely baffling, even more so that the devs are being called out and insulted about it. There is a significantly small amount of you here that are going to be broken by $20 and for the very few that actually are will probably be helped regardless seeing as there was already a lovely person willing to give out a few copies. This will most likely be the only money you will ever be required to pay again to play Arelith and you've been given months of notice. Even if the added features aren't incredible, at least find comfort in the fact it'll be easier for the devs going forward.

[Invader_Nym]

I got no problem with the devs, who are right to modernize along with the release of this enhanced edition. My grievance is with Beamdog who is forcing us to re-buy a game we already own.

[PlunderBunny]

I WANT to keep my drivers updated. Not to downgrade them every month when graphic card is updated.

I WANT to keep playing NWN and not meet a day when it stops working on PCs cause WIn10 are not anymore compatible.

These two things are enough for me to pay for it.

You do not like it? Do not buy it. Noone FORCES anything on you.

You can keep playing basic NWN. Noone is taking your copy from you.

You are one of the people who complain on some mechanical things. The thing that Devs could script most things now as they loose "hardcoded" statues suddenly do not matter for you as well? Well. Okay.

Again. Do not buy it then?

ENORMOUS Post below, TL;DR to follow it...

This is pretty much my whole perspective on it. Neverwinter Nights was released 15 years ago, almost 15-1/2. It wasn't designed to run on modern hardware, with modern drivers, over modern networks using practices that I admit I know nothing about but may very well be as different as the hardware and drivers. At the time of the original launch, was in no way the standard gaming expectation that it is now. With some PCs that I've owned over the past several years, I've had to jump through hoops to get NWN running acceptably on them, and with others its run fine pretty much right out of the gate. Several of my friends have been interested in NWN, but ended up not playing because of the rigamarole of actually getting it to work.

I could care less, frankly, about any balance changes that have been made, because those can be undone if they're widely disliked, especially with the stated "un-hardcoding" that Beamdog is apparently doing to the ruleset. The tweaks to the graphical rendering, while perfectly nice and all, are nothing that I'm really too excited for (especially the "vibrance", I think that it completely oversaturates the look of the game and makes it seem too garish; the higher contrast is quite nice, though, and the fact that you will be able to drop in GLSL shaders is just a nice thing). Bugfixes are all well and good, but we've lived with bugs for a long time, they're nothing that completely spoiled the experience before, we'd have managed with them for longer.

What really matters to me is that Beamdog has acquired the old code and updated the game to be fully compatible with all modern PC platforms, such that it doesn't require voodoo to get running. Without that update, nobody had any way of knowing how long the game itself or this server would be able to continue running on modern hardware in any kind of acceptable way. For about five years now I've been dreading the day that modern PCs would finally outpace poor old NWN and leave it behind, completely crippling the community. Yes, there are some even older games with communities that still exist. But they tend to be much more insular and with an even higher barrier to entry than NWN.

The important takeaway from all of this for me is that Neverwinter Nights need not die a death of obsolescence. With this update and a little luck, it should be able to last another 15 years into the future without having to worry about becoming completely incompatible with changing systems. Even more than that, it's going to have a proper Master Server, a proper avenue for technical support and development, and a centralized forum for the community as a whole. In my mind, all of that is completely unrelated to a "quick and easy cash grab, exploiting the enthusiasm of the community, etc. etc."

WARNING: TANGENT BELOW
As a related note to "enhanced edition" stuff in general, I am an enormous fan of classic point-n-click adventure games, in particular the LucasArts adventure games and Monkey Island 1&2 especially (hence my username and portrait). But I would consider the Monkey Island Special Edition releases to be an absolutely exploitative cash grab. If the Special Editions were the only way to play the game on modern hardware effectively then I would welcome them, but the community had already years prior created ScummVM, a brilliant cross-platform way to play nearly all of the classic LucasArts and Sierra adventure games pretty much perfectly on modern systems. The additions made by the Special Editions were "enhanced" graphics (I think the new graphics looked universally awful and think the low-resolution art of the originals are beautiful and pretty timeless), changing the wonderful MIDI score to a fully-orchestrated one (that I don't much care for), and the admittedly nice feature of voice acting, though I liked reading the text and having the voices in my head. THAT is a cash grab to me. NWN:EE is miles away from that, in my opinion, and well worth the investment.

TL;DR: NWN:EE doesn't come off as a cash grab to me, because I don't see it as "you need to pay us $20 to keep using this game", I see it as "pay $20 for the updated version of this game that actually runs now, after the original intended life cycle has expired".

[Sockss]

um...its not for nothing Nym, your missing the whole point of the update...

1. professional coders, devs, and the likes who are paid to problem solve issues generally around the clock.

2. Mechanical fixes the Devs of Arelith CANNOT do.

3. Server side support for more critical issues.

4. New upgrades we cannot possibly get without haks

5. Enhancements we cannot get without haks

6. Bugs that are from the game that DM's and Devs cannot fix are repaired

the list goes on. Literally try and look behind the scenes.

This isn't actually the case for anything that's there at the moment, though.

[PlunderBunny]

So is EE mostly just visuals? My only issue if it's mostly just making things pretty and not adding new content ddown the road, seems a little blahhh for me. Sort of seems like giving a used car a new paint job.

If I'm understanding things correctly, it's not "just visuals", and none of the visual changes are even mandatory, you can disable them at will. The changes are mostly on the backend, making things fully compatible with modern hardware, enabling a Master Server again, and making the development of new content easier on devs, rather than making new content themselves. As the Beamdog devs said in their livestream, their design philosophy was to update the game so that it'd run on new platforms, and make it easier to develop new content, without breaking any existing content already made by the community.

[Konni]

That all being said though, I'm still cautiously optimistic.

Thanks Irongron. I'm trying to see it that way.

I do hope it is everything as promised for developers, because as raised clientside it's not too impressive.

I'd be less bothered so long as the ultravision glitch is fixed and darkness didn't black out the entire map.

[Kirito]

I've not read the last few pages... that said, I am excited for some of the new coding functions being added. It will make alterations to items SIGNIFICANTLY easier and allow for other interesting things.

[Ebonstar]

this is odd since I could have sworn I see your log in in the sugesstion forum often. These listed features are not whats important, the ones forthcoming are. The fact that our team was asked to aid in initial beta and production with Liareth being hired beyond that for her mad skills, should make you proud rather than being indifferent.

Everything our team has accomplished in the game without haks is in a sense being honored and being shown to the world. Our Devs rock! and soon everyone will know just how much.

Now stop saying what you dont want, and go through your old posts for those things you had ideas about and bring them to the what you would like forum on Beamdog for them to consider.

And be proud of our team too!!

My problem in a nutshell is that this enhanced edition has been made mandatory by the nature of persistent worlds, which I think was Beamdog's angle all along.

I think that's why the enhanced edition actually doesn't really boast any new features. Players have said the game looks exactly the same in the screenshots and videos, and I tend to agree. There's no new content, no new game mechanics, just a minor and apparently negligible face-lift.

If it's the case that this new enhanced edition is developer friendly, and that's really the main purpose behind it, then it'd be nice if Beamdog was a little more transparent about it.

Why not ask contributors to CEP if they'll donate some of their graphics to the game? New weapons and armor templates would at least mean I actually got something noticeable out of the purchase. Someone else mentioned an automated content downloader like in NWN2. Why not include that in the enhanced edition? There are actual enhancements that could be included in this release that would truly reward people for buying the game.

I do think the enhanced edition will be a boost to the community, and a positive thing. I'll probably buy the enhanced edition too. Not because I want to, but because I have to. It'd be nice if I was getting more for that 20 dollars.

You have truly missed the point. All those things you just mentioned have been thought of and being worked on. Backward compatibility means all the content already made will work in the new version. If you had listened to the stream this was spoken about as the primary reason to not totally overhaul the graphics or all the custom content would be unusable.
Another major point is this isnt a release and go to the next project. The previous EE releases were primarily single player or small party only. This time and Trent mentioned it multiple times, they added their initial enhancements and worked with the community (ie Arelith) to formulate other things needed in the game. 64 bit functionality, no more compatbility modes needed, a new secure master server, NWNX incorporated into the core game, unlocking the hardcoding of core elements that have given devs fits,incorporating the core game plus the SoU and HoTU into the initial release, technical support not worrying about the OC but the Toolset and PW primarily.
Just those points alone make it well worth 20 dollars.

[Ork]

No one's forced. This isn't mandatory. Want to play Arelith, get EE. You can still diddle in single player if you want. This release means NWN will continue tp stay relevent. If Irongron decided he'd rather spend his time elsewhere, poof there goes Arelith. With EE, we'll have multiple other places to migrate to like we all had back in the beginning.

[Nemain]

Again asking the same question: is EE still compatible with 32 bit computers?

[Improv]

I've not read the last few pages... that said, I am excited for some of the new coding functions being added. It will make alterations to items SIGNIFICANTLY easier and allow for other interesting things.

I don't pretend to know, but it seems like the EE will make it much more possible for someone new to the game to develop modules and even a new persistent world? I realize a lot of features were present in the community before, but how accessible were they really to someone who just discovered the game?

[Black Wendigo]

It's forced if you want to play NWN and don't have a copy. Because now the there is only one place to get it, not many. Beamdog didn't just remaster NWN They bought it outright or were given exclusive license so that now they are the only place to go to if you want NWN, Baldur's gate, Planescape, Icewind dale or any other game they enhance this way.

So no they are not altruistic. And yes people have a right to question or criticize this just as others have the right to defend it.

[nobs3]

For quite some time I feared Arelith will die slowly. How will new players find us when Gamespy was gone and you could see more and more empty servers. We thought about printing flyers and placing them into local gameshops. I asked me how long will there be an admin team and assistants that spends so much private time for OUR fun. I wonder how so many permanently changing people can work on one big program without completely bugging it. And every time I have a new system installed on my laptop I wondered if I will manage to get NWN running again. And so on.
Now there is a very great answer that (for me) comes out of nowhere! And even without convincing new stuff that can be seen by players on the first sight, this is still worth it. It secures the future of Arelith.
Without private driven servers I would have stopped playing NWN many many years ago. Because the people behind Arelith created a permanent changing game I played the same game for years. And in respect for all this work and for the long time I was granted so much fun I decided to donate.
Now the 20$ are not a donation to Arelith. But it will help Arelith and it is great to read the enthusiasm of the team. Which we please should not work against!
And for Beamdog: I don’t think they will make extreme profit with this reanimation of old NWN. I am a most critical person regarding commercialization. And compared to what most people accept every day without even noticing it I assess what happens here a very very minor case of a one-time commodification more in form of a service. And what I did read on the forum about how the corporation Beamdog did act (like involving the community into development, showing interest in the user base etc.) sounds good to me.
I nearly read every post in this forum and for me the discussion is not a fruitful one.
Being worried. Asking for answers. Showing interest. Sharing information. All good. But the “they are robbing my money for nothing”…

[Baron Saturday]

When SoU came out and servers upgraded, you had to buy it or get left behind. When HotU came out, same thing.

The EE is an expansion in many ways - but it is an expansion aimed at devs, not players. While I can wish that there was more new content aimed at regular players, and that some of the new content that IS being introduced was less nonsensical (has anyone figured out what that patch note about uncanny dodge means, btw?), I also trust that our devs will make the most of the new capability being given to them to create things they would otherwise have been unable to.

[Ebonstar]

I got no problem with the devs, who are right to modernize along with the release of this enhanced edition. My grievance is with Beamdog who is forcing us to re-buy a game we already own.

then its simple Nym dont buy it. you continue to fail to see what you get new, so I for one will stop trying to convince you that your overlooking the obvious.

The EE is not the game we all own now.

[EnigmaticSpirit]

They put the work in. Do they not deserve your cash for their time? I certainly think so.

[Invader_Nym]

I got no problem with the devs, who are right to modernize along with the release of this enhanced edition. My grievance is with Beamdog who is forcing us to re-buy a game we already own.

then its simple Nym dont buy it. you continue to fail to see what you get new, so I for one will stop trying to convince you that your overlooking the obvious.

The EE is not the game we all own now.

You're cheer-leading. Multiple people have read the release notes and observed what I've observed, which is that this enhanced edition of the game is hardly enhanced at all.

[roy rutan]

I got no problem with the devs, who are right to modernize along with the release of this enhanced edition. My grievance is with Beamdog who is forcing us to re-buy a game we already own.

Nym, it is not minor to update the game to run on current os, provide support again for Linux, again release premium content modules that have been lost for those that play non server nwn, once in a while. update shaders and depth of field to modern capabilities, provide 1080p and 4k support for graphics,

a lot of work went into it, I intend to get the game for myself and roommate when it releases and I don't play that often these days.

as it stands our Current NWN is barely holding on to playabillity in compatibility mode this update saves Arelith as far as I can see as well as breeds a fresh breath of life into the community for new servers to come about.

[Invader_Nym]

Contrary to popular belief, the size of the module and playerbase has been increasing, not decreasing. Arelith's existence and success completely undermine the notion that NWN is unplayable in its current state. This is one of those situations where your explanation sounds great but is unfortunately not consistent with observable reality.

If there are a bunch of people who can't make the game run, then that's fine, bill them 20 dollars. I'm not one of those people. Double-billing me for, basically, nothing, is, as I said earlier, dubious.