Arelith

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:35 am**

Good Character wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:19 am
I brought up the damage situation is because the correct build (2h-hand STR nagainata) can nuke someone for 94 per hit on average before crits with the current sneak attack scaling. I assume Divine Power isn't giving a 4th APR otherwise Kenji would have specified, so you're looking at a max of 4 APR (3 APR + haste); 376 damage in a round without crits.

That’s interesting but you mind showing the math on how you got to that 94 average per hit w/o crit ?

I suppose you’re assuming all 4 apr would be sneaks too. That *can* happen but only on a flanking scenario, and there’s also damage resistances and all.

Anyway, I’m just curious to see how consistent is that average 94 per hit, and also what would be the downsides of such build to see it seeker is really broken as is

Thanks

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:57 am**

Kenji wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:02 am Regarding Uncanny Dodge for Seekers:
Rogue 3 gets Uncanny Dodge 1 and improves with rogue levels from thereon.
Barbarian 2 gets Uncanny Dodge 1 and improves with barb levels from thereon.
Ranger 8 gets Uncanny Dodge 1, and that's it.
Swashbuckler 12 gets Uncanny Dodge 1, and that's it.

At first, I thought of some form of progression for Uncanny Dodge for Seekers but decided to leave it attained only from dipping Rogue 3 or Barb 2 (preferably the former).

Your call, of course. Remember a lot of classes get uncanny dodge these days around (including non obvious classes like hexblade, bard and spellsword):

Bard (10)
Barbarian (2)
Monk (11)
Assassin (2)
Shadowdancer (2)
Hexblade (12)
Warlock (10)
Spellsword (10)
Swashbuckler (12)

Other:
(1) A small bonus to spot / hide / ms / investigation / tracking may be thematic.
(2) Losing the extra attack from DP would be a serious hit for a class that is also barred for summons, I'd rather have (a) shorter duration, or (b) lose bit of the sneak progression, or (c) a DC penalty to schools outside of divination / illusion.
(3) I'd love a shaman-like CL synergy between rogue / ranger / monk rather than a fixed +3 - though maybe that's just not to be for clerics.

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:49 am**

Juuj wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:35 am
Good Character wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:19 am
I brought up the damage situation is because the correct build (2h-hand STR nagainata) can nuke someone for 94 per hit on average before crits with the current sneak attack scaling. I assume Divine Power isn't giving a 4th APR otherwise Kenji would have specified, so you're looking at a max of 4 APR (3 APR + haste); 376 damage in a round without crits.
That’s interesting but you mind showing the math on how you got to that 94 average per hit w/o crit ?

I suppose you’re assuming all 4 apr would be sneaks too. That *can* happen but only on a flanking scenario, and there’s also damage resistances and all.

Anyway, I’m just curious to see how consistent is that average 94 per hit, and also what would be the downsides of such build to see it seeker is really broken as is

Thanks

Will actually be 80.5 damage. Forgot about the Clang change and how it's now slightly restricted.

Onislayer

7.5 Nodachi base
3 Bless Weapon
4.5 Divine
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
5 Divine Favor
2 Battletide or War Cry
1 Prayer
4.5 Defeaning Clang
31.5 Sneak Attack (assuming 27 cleric)

You could also use a Profaned nodachi for 85.5 damage.

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:26 am**

Good Character wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:49 am
Will actually be 80.5 damage. Forgot about the Clang change and how it's now slightly restricted.

Onislayer

7.5 Nodachi base
3 Bless Weapon
4.5 Divine
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
5 Divine Favor
2 Battletide or War Cry
1 Prayer
4.5 Defeaning Clang
31.5 Sneak Attack (assuming 27 cleric)

You could also use a Profaned nodachi for 85.5 damage.

A str based rogue going the same route would net

7.5 Nodachi base
4.5 Divine
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
(2 Battletide or War Cry)* can be achieved w/ silver bell but I’ll leave it out
(1 Prayer) can be used with scroll but I’ll leave it out aswell
4 essence temp
49 Sneak Attack (assuming 27 rogue)
=86,5

A deep Bg/ftr/monk would net

7.5 Nodachi base
4.5 Divine
6 corrup weapon
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
(2 Battletide or War Cry)* can be achieved w/ silver bell but I’ll leave it out
(1 Prayer) can be used with scroll but I’ll leave it out aswell
21 Sneak Attack (assuming 20 bg)
6 ews
4 essence
(Not going to account for div might nor the 2d6 vs good to keep things even since you didn’t account for div might on the seeker and dmg vs good is situational)
= 70,5 *this build has higher base ab, +1 apr and has a summon contributing to dps*

So all and all I think seeker is pretty in line with rogue and BG regarding dps.

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am**

Juuj wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:26 am
Good Character wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:49 am
Will actually be 80.5 damage. Forgot about the Clang change and how it's now slightly restricted.

Onislayer

7.5 Nodachi base
3 Bless Weapon
4.5 Divine
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
5 Divine Favor
2 Battletide or War Cry
1 Prayer
4.5 Defeaning Clang
31.5 Sneak Attack (assuming 27 cleric)

You could also use a Profaned nodachi for 85.5 damage.

A str based rogue going the same route would net

7.5 Nodachi base
4.5 Divine
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
(2 Battletide or War Cry)* can be achieved w/ silver bell but I’ll leave it out
(1 Prayer) can be used with scroll but I’ll leave it out aswell
4 essence temp
49 Sneak Attack (assuming 27 rogue)
=86,5

A deep Bg/ftr/monk would net

7.5 Nodachi base
4.5 Divine
6 corrup weapon
2.5 Piercing
19 Strength
(2 Battletide or War Cry)* can be achieved w/ silver bell but I’ll leave it out
(1 Prayer) can be used with scroll but I’ll leave it out aswell
21 Sneak Attack (assuming 20 bg)
6 ews
4 essence
(Not going to account for div might nor the 2d6 vs good to keep things even since you didn’t account for div might on the seeker and dmg vs good is situational)
= 70,5 *this build has higher base ab, +1 apr and has a summon contributing to dps*

So all and all I think seeker is pretty in line with rogue and BG regarding dps.

First has abyssmal AC and very little capability to flat-foot someone due to your nades not scaling well without a DEX-focus.

Second has all the issues of the first but worse damage.

I think you're seriously ignoring the combination of both nigh-permanent 15 bonus AB and the damage.

Posted: **Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:11 am**

Foreword: the combination of heavy sneak attack dice and a full (battle) caster chassis is something that remains unexplored from our existing meta and current builds until now. This combination is the beginning of a new archetype in Arelith mechanics. After its initial release, I imagine there will be plenty of adjustments and balancing for this particular path.

That said, raw damage output should not be the only metric when comparing the existing builds to this new archetype. These are calculated with sneak attacks in mind, after all. Therefore, utilities and tools that enable such sneak attacks should also be considered.

Most, if not all, sneak attack builds, dedicated Blackguards notwithstanding (even then, it is also heavily reliant on its summon, which is a different archetype altogether), have relatively low AB compared to other physical attack builds. With this, they often rely on flat-foot mechanics to both land and enable their sneak attacks.

Shadowdancers have HiPS, but given its high SD level requirement, the SD builds are often shoehorned into the current summon-focused build that they are now rather than relying on SA alone.
Dedicated Rogues have grenades that scale with dex. They also have better sneak attack progression than Seekers.
Assassins have hidden danger on top of the specialty weapon to further boost AB. They also have Assassinate, which translates to better and more consistent damage outside of Death Attacks. They also have better Death attack progression than Seekers.

All of the above have access to Epic Dodge for dex variants. Str variants simply have more damage (2H nodachi/katana builds) at the cost of defensive capabilities (in the case of rogue, lowered DC for grenades). They also have twice the amount of skill points or more than Seekers.

With all of these in mind, here is the latest draft - flavor text by Kuma:

Path of the Seeker
Heresy and vice, relic and treasure, secrets and sins - Seekers use their prodigious powers of investigation and skulduggery to identify these wherever the dictates of their faith require. Frequently found far from their mother Church, a scant few Seekers operate inside their own ranks, rooting out whatever actions are considered abominable to their faith.
Weapon Proficiency: Rogue

Armor Proficiency: Light, Shield

Special:
- Divine Favor and Divine Power are now double duration and can be extended again for a total of 4 times the original duration
- While Divine Power is active, gains a chance to refund Divination and Illusion spells depending on spell level
- +2 DC on Divination and Illusion spells
- If multiclassed to Ranger, 2/3 cleric levels count towards dual-wield/called shot, studied enemy, and tracking progression (ITWF/CS at 9 levels of Cleric, assuming having multiclassed 3 levels of rangers)
- If multiclassed to Rogue, 2/3 cleric levels count towards specialty weapon and uncanny dodge progression (24 levels of cleric gets +1 AB for Finessable Weapons, assuming having multiclassed 3 levels of rogue)
- If multiclassed to Monk, 2/3 cleric levels count towards Ki Strike progression, thereby granting access to Improved Ki Strike 4 (can be taken as either general or bonus Cleric feat). Clerics will have no access to Improved Ki Strike 5.
- If multiclassed to Assassin, 2/3 cleric levels count towards Hidden Danger and Arelith Custom Poison progression
- Gains Improved Sneak Attack every 3 levels of cleric
- Uncanny Dodge I at level 12
- Gains +2 Spot, +2 Hide, +2 Move Silently, +4 Open Lock, +4 Disarm Trap, and +4 Search at level 18
- The Seeker feat can be activated to give a target (other than self) the above skill bonuses for a duration of 5 rounds + 1 round per charisma modifier with a minimum duration of 5 rounds.
- +3 CL at level 21

Drawbacks:
- Divine Power only grants full BAB as soft AB and does not provide extra APRs
- Divine Favor only grants AB and increased refund chance, but not extra magic damage
- Wearing Heavy Armor or wielding Tower Shield will incur a Spell Failure chance penalty.
- Can't Summon

Posted: **Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:23 pm**

A stealth cleric . . . very interesting.

I know nothing of builds though, but I look forward to trying the one Master Kenji thinks up!

Posted: **Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:43 pm**

The real question is...when can we get our hands on this?! This looks delicious to start tinkering with!

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:12 pm**

Kenji wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:11 am the whole post lol

This is a cool way to represent the specialty kits of priests of gods of stealth and thievery in 2e, but I find the monk synergy to be weird thematically. It's also worrying to me that the olden days of mandatory monk dips for clerics might return; especially as Seekers with a monk dip will have dramatically more AC than non-monk Seekers. How will this be addressed, if at all? Most (if not all?) gods of thievery and sneaking are non-lawful, so it would feel bad from an aesthetic standpoint to take monk, whilst not taking it would feel like mechanically shooting myself in the foot. My thought is if you really want to preserve the monk synergy with unarmed attacking/stunning fist/whatever is to deny them monk AC from wisdom so that it becomes more of an "if you want to" thing rather than an "if you want to be relevant" thing.

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:18 pm**

stoneheart- wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:12 pm This is a cool way to represent the specialty kits of priests of gods of stealth and thievery in 2e, but I find the monk synergy to be weird thematically. It's also worrying to me that the olden days of mandatory monk dips for clerics might return; especially as Seekers with a monk dip will have dramatically more AC than non-monk Seekers. How will this be addressed, if at all? Most (if not all?) gods of thievery and sneaking are non-lawful, so it would feel bad from an aesthetic standpoint to take monk, whilst not taking it would feel like mechanically shooting myself in the foot. My thought is if you really want to preserve the monk synergy with unarmed attacking/stunning fist/whatever is to deny them monk AC from wisdom so that it becomes more of an "if you want to" thing rather than an "if you want to be relevant" thing.

This is a valid concern and one I would like to address and discuss further.

I have plans to finish and release both Vigilante and Liberator along with the Seeker path, where the two PrCs would cater to non-lawful and chaotic characters who want access to Wis to AC and Div Dip without being shoehorned into the monk, paladin, or blackguard class.

While the introduction of Vigilante and Liberator should address the alignment restriction aspect of the building process, this doesn't necessarily address a meta-defining feature such as Wis to AC being enabled by dipping a class.

My thought on the matter is that Wisdom to AC is meta-defining, so much so that, for the classes that wish to obtain them, they will need to give up something in return. In this case, it is a single class slot and 3 levels worth of CL spent for that particular ability. I believe this is a necessary tradeoff for any cleric, path or vanilla, builds to obtain.

A counter-argument that can be made is that we do have precedence of Clerics getting Haste as a general spell instead of a domain spell only available to Travel. If Clerics are no longer sacrificing 1 domain for haste, can't clerics, specifically seeker path, obtain Wis to AC (even as dodge AC) for free as a feature, as well?

The difference to be recognized here is that most domain choices are designed to be thematic, and each of them should have a select few powerful spells or combinations that will allow clerics to become distinct in terms of flavor and mechanics. While building clerics is no exception to the rule where it should take theme and RP into consideration, there do exist a wide variety of build lines for players to choose from in the case of the Seeker path.

Allow me to elaborate.

The conventional sneak attack builds often utilize as many Flat-Footing methods as possible and deal a maximum number of sneak attacks within the shortest timeframe possible. If the sneak attack build loses its advantage of proc'ing sneak attacks, it should then not fight a losing skirmish as sneak builds aren't designed to fight elongated, toe-to-toe battles like many of the martial classes are. This is where AC from dex, Epic Dodge, and/or HiPS come in to play. They allow the sneak attacker to escape an unfavorable matchup and return again with full force (sneak attack). At least that is how one usually engages with a sneak attack build.

That said, Seeker path can not obtain Epic Dodge but enjoys a far higher AB than the conventional sneak attack builds. The ways for a Seeker path to obtain AC also varied in three different ways:

Str/Cha Div build with Magic Vestment on both Armor and Shield
Dex build with Magic Vestment on both Armor and Shield
Wis build with Magic Vestment on Armor and Monk/Vig's Wisdom to AC

Note that all of the above can use Str, Dex, or Wis for the attack rolls. Wisdom is slightly trickier as it does spend a feat on Zen Archery, but, in return, it also has the highest DC on spells.

The Epic Dodge variants of sneak attack builds are often shoehorned into dex because of Epic Dodge's requirement. Seekers, on the other hand, have plenty of different ways to flat-foot, obtain high AC, high AB, and have escape utilities: prime examples are the access to Hellball and Greater Sanctuary.

stoneheart- wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:12 pmMy thought is if you really want to preserve the monk synergy with unarmed attacking/stunning fist/whatever is to deny them monk AC from wisdom so that it becomes more of an "if you want to" thing rather than an "if you want to be relevant" thing.

To reiterate and answer this particular concern, one doesn't necessarily have to build into the monk class to be relevant for Seekers, as there are other ways to build Seekers, pending more number-crunching to showcase and compare the differences between the different builds.

Edens_Fall wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:23 pm A stealth cleric . . . very interesting.

I know nothing of builds though, but I look forward to trying the one Master Kenji thinks up!

I already have 3 in mind, might get to doing some spreadsheets and see how it all goes

Kaeladin wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:43 pm The real question is...when can get we our hands on this?! This looks delicious to start tinkering with!

Soon™

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:34 pm**

Kenji wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:18 pm Note that all of the above can use Str, Dex, or Wis for the attack rolls. Wisdom is slightly trickier as it does spend a feat on Zen Archery...
Edens_Fall wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:23 pm A stealth cleric . . . very interesting.

I know nothing of builds though, but I look forward to trying the one Master Kenji thinks up!
I already have 3 in mind, might get to doing some spreadsheets and see how it all goes

Don't forget the Point Blank Shot feat for the Zen Archer Seeker build, which I think would be important if one tries to Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon as I believe that requires close range shooting.

I'm happy to follow all of the posts about this path. Thank you, Kenji, for your work and being communicative about it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:14 pm**

I'm excited for the Seeker!

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:49 pm**

Having played a cleric for 12+ years now on both arelith and amia the latest adition of Battlecleric is the most fun i ever had with the clas.

The only downside is the duration of divine favor.
It would be a great QOL if that could be turned into rounds/lvl like divine Power .
So you dont have to watch so many bufs that you really need on diferend CD

Outside of that ? I cant thank you enough.
Well done!

Posted: **Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:26 am**

Are the DCs on cleric domain "activation abilities" (the domain power available on cooldown like Drown with Water Domain, Vitriolic Sphere with Ooze, etc etc) supposed to take spell focuses into account? Currently they do not seem to.

Posted: **Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:02 pm**

Lord Blacktooth wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:49 pm Having played a cleric for 12+ years now on both arelith and amia the latest adition of Battlecleric is the most fun i ever had with the clas.

The only downside is the duration of divine favor.
It would be a great QOL if that could be turned into rounds/lvl like divine Power .
So you dont have to watch so many bufs that you really need on diferend CD

Outside of that ? I cant thank you enough.
Well done!

Seconded! Longer lasting divine favor would be great for QOL.

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:00 am**

I made a bug report about this but it didn't seem to get traction and I'm wondering if the behavior is intended.

I tested many of the cleric domain power spells (the ones on cooldown like drown for water domain, etc) and in most cases spell focuses aren't increasing the DC.

Not trying to rush anyone to fix something that's not a priority but I'm wondering if this is intentional behavior or if it's a known issue and intended to be addressed at some point. Obviously be good to know either way before committing to a domain.

Thanks!

Posted: **Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:03 am**

Kenji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:17 am A fix for domain power DC not taking foci into account is in the pipeline.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:48 pm**

I'm not sure if this is a bug or how improved sneak attack works. I'm not seeing the feat on a cleric/ranger seeker cleric or seeing improved damage. Testing with both melee and missiles. Do you need to have rogue levels or some other source of regular sneak attack to access improved sneak attack?

Also since I'm asking questions my magic domain cleric is not getting scribe scroll. The wiki says they are supposed to. If that was taken away I can't find it so just curious if that's a bug or meant to be.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:03 pm**

Magic domain will let you scribe scrolls without needing the feat, as far as I know. So just give it a try :)

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:48 am**

I admit that didn't occur to me, thank you!

Edit, still not sure about improved sneak attack though- is there a condition to make that work on a seeker or is it not working?

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:59 pm**

Just a question for Seeker's ban on summons. Can we use the the clone of Epic SF illusion? Would be cool flavour for the illusion focused seeker.

Posted: **Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:41 am**

Mortem_Fero wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:59 pm Just a question for Seeker's ban on summons. Can we use the the clone of Epic SF illusion? Would be cool flavour for the illusion focused seeker.

Should be able to since it's not a real summon that has combat capabilities. If not, post it in the bug report thread for clerics.

Posted: **Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:31 am**

Earlier in this thread and a few weeks ago on Discord, Kenji, you said you were open to cleric domain suggestions. I would like to make a second attempt at offering some.

Looking over the D&D v. 3.0 cleric domains, I see only three are missing: Chaos, Law, and Luck. Here are my proposed domain spells to fill this gap. I tried to focus on theme only, though I did review the D&D 3.0 domain spell lists for inspiration.

CHAOS DOMAIN
1 - Color Spray
2 - Cloud of Bewilderment
3 - Confusion
4 - Bigby’s Disrupting Hand
5 - Firebrand
6 - Crumble
7 - Prismatic Spray
8 - Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
9 - Tide of Battle

LAW DOMAIN
1 - Aid
2 - Clarity
3 - Knock
4 - Slow
5 - Bigby’s Interposing Hand
6 - Hold Monster
7 - Delayed Blast Fireball
8 - Dominate Person
9 - Power Word Kill

LUCK DOMAIN
1 - Remove Paralysis
2 - Remove Curse
3 - Keen Edge
4 - Spell Resistance
5 - Wounding Whispers
6 - Stone to Flesh
7 - Ethereal Visage
8 - Shadow Shield
9 - Protection from Spells

These are just suggestions that are themselves open to suggestions.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:51 pm**

The Undeath Domain spell interaction with Vampiric Touch feels pointless for the domain.
The only way for a cleric to be able to cast Vampiric Touch is if you also have the Vermin domain.
And the Vermin Domain already has the same benefit of automatically empowering your vampiric touch.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:34 am**

I'm looking for feedback about the Seeker path, do share your thoughts and experience either in public or privately with me, thanks!

Arelith

Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Cleric Domain Power spells and Spell Focus DC

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Improved Sneak on Seeker

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