Arelith

Actually, you can remember roleplay from there. Which...okay, s, we're supposed to take death more seriously, but now death shall become the chill zone.

Addressing some concerns, we will give DMs the tool to tweak the penalties. So in case bad things happen to good adventurers, this is covered.

I am very glad to hear this and am looking forward to seeing what direction things go, in that case.

Dunshine wrote:

Quoth wrote:I've won 2 out of 5 PvP events I've had in 2 years

I'm sorry, but this really made me smile. You're all over the forum about this change, and you've experienced 5 PVP situations in 2 years?

The Joke there if you're an old admin(Like Iron or Mith) is I left the server about 2 years ago. I've been back around 3 months but clearly that was lost on you

The update is bad plain and simple and shouldn't of been okayed. it adds -nothing- to the server. It only takes and the stuff that is being mentioned to make it more bearable isn't even close to being put in. This should not of implemented as it promotes simply not playing the game/server there's no upside to this update and I honestly think that train of thought was missing when it was being worked on and put in place.

What does this even add? CD on Respawn adds time for PvP aftermath RP. That's the only part of this that makes a lick of sense. Otherwise all it does it reward Griefing with greater penalties to the victim.

As for DMs having tools to help lessen the woes of the victims how is that even remotely good enough that you need to give new powers to compensate for a punishment you put in before anything was ready to make it remotely bearable was in place.

Edit: Fugue RP

Regarding RP in the fugue

I like to think and take the Terry Pratchett approach to death and what it's like to die. You just stop caring. I mean why would you. that insult that hurt your feelings once is rather meaningless now. Everything back when you were alive was pointless and now you move on even the method of your death doesn't matter. Could even find it funny if it was something that was impossible or unbelievable. But all those petty remarks and disputes just don't matter do they? So why would you speak to anyone. You're the ghost of a dead person traveling the fugue plane to reach the resting place of your soul or leap at another chance of life but then you're alive. the fugue no longer matters to you and the wails of the dead within it also don't matter. There's no benefit from an IC point to speak interact or engage with another dead person they don't have the power to return you to life.

I'm not saying there's no RP to be had or to not bother RPing I'm saying in my experience and how i treat death IC is everything back when i was alive is meaningless when i'm alive the fugue is meaningless. Also the xp loss after respawn showing the loss of your knowledge should in my opinion be RP'ed as memory loss as that's actually what losing XP is. it's losing knowledge/soul fragmentation

Dying at level 30 means you have about a 2 hour penalty of which you have to be online for.

Why do I have to roleplay my resurrection sickness? Isn't it equally engaging that my character decided, "Well, you know, I feel like complete crap so I'm just going to go get some bed rest for a few days." and log out?

I've seen plenty of people RP out being crippled and wounded from dying and near-dying without having a mechanical, arbitrary stat loss to go alongside it, forcing people to do it doesn't seem very fun.

Then there's other cases like, what if I log off for an extended time. Come back a few real life days later (over a month in game) and then still have to roleplay I'm crippled for conveniently one more day and suck up potentially the free time I have for that day doing so, or at the very least, the chance to adventure with someone else who has limited time?

I'm not bothered by dying in PvE or PvP, it happens. But the "you have to be online" part of this sickness is really something else.

Sweet baby christian jesus, I thought I misread that at first. The penalty is already one of the most boring things about the server, an enforced time of no-adventuring (In a module that's very heavily about adventuring), and now it's going to be even longer for PvP encounters and won't tick down offline?

Time to go make that max hide/MS shadowdancer so I can run from all conflict I can't avoid.

Quoth wrote:
The Joke there if you're an old admin(Like Iron or Mith) is I left the server about 2 years ago. I've been back around 3 months but clearly that was lost on you

The update is bad plain and simple and shouldn't of been okayed. it adds -nothing- to the server. It only takes and the stuff that is being mentioned to make it more bearable isn't even close to being put in. This should not of implemented as it promotes simply not playing the game/server there's no upside to this update and I honestly think that train of thought was missing when it was being worked on and put in place.

What does this even add? CD on Respawn adds time for PvP aftermath RP. That's the only part of this that makes a lick of sense. Otherwise all it does it reward Griefing with greater penalties to the victim.

As for DMs having tools to help lessen the woes of the victims how is that even remotely good enough that you need to give new powers to compensate for a punishment you put in before anything was ready to make it remotely bearable was in place.

Edit: Fugue RP

Regarding RP in the fugue

I like to think and take the Terry Pratchett approach to death and what it's like to die. You just stop caring. I mean why would you. that insult that hurt your feelings once is rather meaningless now. Everything back when you were alive was pointless and now you move on even the method of your death doesn't matter. Could even find it funny if it was something that was impossible or unbelievable. But all those petty remarks and disputes just don't matter do they? So why would you speak to anyone. You're the ghost of a dead person traveling the fugue plane to reach the resting place of your soul or leap at another chance of life but then you're alive. the fugue no longer matters to you and the wails of the dead within it also don't matter. There's no benefit from an IC point to speak interact or engage with another dead person they don't have the power to return you to life.

I'm not saying there's no RP to be had or to not bother RPing I'm saying in my experience and how i treat death IC is everything back when i was alive is meaningless when i'm alive the fugue is meaningless. Also the xp loss after respawn showing the loss of your knowledge should in my opinion be RP'ed as memory loss as that's actually what losing XP is. it's losing knowledge/soul fragmentation

I've only been an admin as long as Dunshine, as I became one when I took ownership of the server and appointed him as a fellow admin when doing so.

In regard to this change though, we've been down this road before as this is clearly a divisive change. Some people feel this is precisely what the server needs while others strongly do not. The irony here is that I actually share many of your concerns; this is not something I personally would not have chosen. I know though, that I am often wrong. I've taken a team approach to running arelith and that entails giving others the benefit of the doubt from time to time. Septire too, who did the initial coding wasn't convinced, but we are both of us prepared to work and support each other as a group.

I can only ask, potilitely, that our players support the staff in the same way we support one another; we may, after all, be wrong in our judgement here. Let's give it time, discuss and if necessary improve.

As for the fugue plane, it all ultimately depends on what is done: it's impossible to state how enjoyable that may be until we have something concrete to judge.

Guys. Guys. Guys.

Give it time, yeah?

You were head DM at the time Iron I didn't mention that as it's changed now to admin so just included you within that.

I would support the staff however it feels like you're punishing the playerbase for playing conflict. Forcing us to stay in game to rid ourselves of the punishment for a max of 2 hours is quite likely not having fun for anyone and as that's the point of any game this is not defensible. Sure with time and tweaking it might be a good addition to the server but right now as it is? No I personally can't support this as a concept never mind an actual feature.

Dunshine wrote:The death penalties will remain for an X ingame hours, which you really have to be online for. Offline hours won't count. Offline hours do count for the pvp counter.

@lorkas

Ive never been a dm, let alone head dm.

My decency wrote:

Dunshine wrote:The death penalties will remain for an X ingame hours, which you really have to be online for. Offline hours won't count. Offline hours do count for the pvp counter.

@lorkas

Thanks, I got to that subforum after this one, then came back to remove my question.

Huh must of been a different Iron I retract that statement!

Quoth wrote:You were head DM at the time Iron I didn't mention that as it's changed now to admin so just included you within that.

I would support the staff however it feels like you're punishing the playerbase for playing conflict. Forcing us to stay in game to rid ourselves of the punishment for a max of 2 hours is quite likely not having fun for anyone and as that's the point of any game this is not defensible. Sure with time and tweaking it might be a good addition to the server but right now as it is? No I personally can't support this as a concept never mind an actual feature.

Then don't.

You have voiced your opinion (repeteadly, to the point where it starts looking like you are just stomping your feet). From here, only time will tell if all of the gloomy and paranoid and end of the world predictions happen or not. And I trust the dev team to adjust accordingly.


Also, on this whole thing...I would like to know what Arena server a lot of you have been playing in and mistaking for Arelith, since you are expecting to rack up respawn times of rl hours that often.

And when have "gank squads" ever been ok?



This isn't to say I fully agree with all parts of the update, but come on.
The tone and overblown exagerations being given as arguments are more demoralizing for me than the update itself, and the sort of stuff that makes me happy I decided to take a break. With that in mind..I am off.

Edit: Opinion revised.

Wow just wow. An actual rule that basically now -encourages- bullying and toxic behaviour ala; "LOL you didn't beg for your live the first time so now you die, i bash you and you can log out for the rest of the day."
Also prepare for a new wave of reports coming in now frequently.

Not going to repeat what others already said, but this has to be one of the worst updates to date for obvious reasons of simply just punishing people and ruining their day. It's not fun and it doesn't enable RP, it prevents it actually. A feature where you are forced to AFK after a chance of an encounter to which you had no chance defending yourself or running from, is a bad one as not all PvP encounters can be avoided even through words or begging. (See how you're basically locked out of your character.)

Buckle up guys, PvP-Death-Squads inbound. Know the MMO sensation where people would get their max lvl buddies to kill the people who lowbie ganked them? Yep, same thing gonna happen just in a more non-meta way aka. 'The PvP-Vengeance-Squad' because every lowbie has a few lvl30 friends who will go on a hunt to avenge their fallen friend, obviously.

Kuma wrote:This feels like a change for a problem that didn't really exist, I'm not gonna lie.

Also, I'm one of those people that logs off for the duration of respawn sickness, because it makes playing utterly, prohibitively painful for me. Roleplaying being unable to walk and losing all my spell slots has never been compelling to me, at all.

EDIT

Dunshine wrote:The death penalties will remain for an X ingame hours, which you really have to be online for. Offline hours won't count. Offline hours do count for the pvp counter.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA NOPE SCREW THIS

So I think maybe when I read the update, I didn't read close enough. I have to agree completely with the entirety of Kuma's post.

You want to force people to be online to live out their respawn sickness? Why? What exactly is this supposed to add to the server? Seriously. It accomplishes nothing but making things painful. And that's not a penalty. It's a punishment. A mean one. For what? accidentally dying? Getting into PVP and losing? I get the desire to discourage the blahze attitude towards death....but this is not the way to do it. At all. Sure, I've seen more and more people going and running to report their own deaths, which makes me grimace, but this only started once you made death rememberable. Under the old rule that you had to forget death, when you learned about that rule, it really made you think about how you treat death and how you think you should roleplay it. I fully believe that the main reason the attitude towards death has gotten worse is because the change that you are allowed to remember it.

If you don't want to tell people how to roleplay death, that's okay, but please don't punish the rest of us who DO treat death reasonably. Because that's what you're doing with this.

Being a team player and supporting your fellow admins is fine and well. But know when it's time to just say no, because we're here to have fun, not pull teeth or bash our heads against a wall for the sake of realism.

Why do i still have the death debuff from last night? do i have to afk for hours IG?, i don't always have time to play why am being forced to afk?.

The online fugue time requirement surprises me too, but as I explained previously I am currently moving house, without internet access save for the forums on my phone, as such I've been outside of the decision making process. This could well be for a very good reason I'm not seeing right now.

Edit: I may be misunderstanding here. The online requirement for stat penalties doesn't worry me so much. I thought it was stating that one must remain online for the duration of their 20 min fugue time.

I'll ask once more since my comment probably dissapeared in the flood of posts. I'd like clarity on /when/ the pvp counter increases. Is it when you die, or when you use the soul gate?

Irongron wrote:The online fugue time requirement surprises me too, but as I explained previously I am currently moving house, without internet access save for the forums on my phone, as such I've been outside of the decision making process. This could well be for a very good reason I'm not seeing right now.

Edit: I may be misunderstanding here. The online requirement for stat penalties doesn't worry me so much. I thought it was stating that one must remain online for the duration of their 20 min fugue time.

Why has the head admin not had any input or say on a change this huge? This shouldn't come as a surprise to you, at all. I'm not meaning to be confrontational, but it does seem concerning that an admin can throw in a change like this without even really consulting the project lead. Almost especially because you're moving house, etc - this doesn't strike me as uber urgent.

That being said being online for the stat penalties is just gonna be me afk in a quarter, and I think I won't be the only one.

Aftond wrote:I'll ask once more since my comment probably dissapeared in the flood of posts. I'd like clarity on /when/ the pvp counter increases. Is it when you die, or when you use the soul gate?

When you use the soul gate.

Kuma wrote:

Irongron wrote:The online fugue time requirement surprises me too, but as I explained previously I am currently moving house, without internet access save for the forums on my phone, as such I've been outside of the decision making process. This could well be for a very good reason I'm not seeing right now.

Edit: I may be misunderstanding here. The online requirement for stat penalties doesn't worry me so much. I thought it was stating that one must remain online for the duration of their 20 min fugue time.

Why has the head admin not had any input or say on a change this huge? This shouldn't come as a surprise to you, at all. I'm not meaning to be confrontational, but it does seem concerning that an admin can throw in a change like this without even really consulting the project lead. Almost especially because you're moving house, etc - this doesn't strike me as uber urgent.

That being said being online for the stat penalties is just gonna be me afk in a quarter, and I think I won't be the only one.

This change was discussed within the admin team quite some time ago, it just took up until now to finish the work. Therefor Irongron may not remember all the exact details. But rest assured, changes like this are discussed and agreed on as admins before sent live.

And, as always nothing is set in stone, if this turns out to be a terrible mistake like many people here are believing, we'll review and rework. But it's too early to jump to conclusions like that, give it some time first.

This was discussed with me beforehand so it is not a total surprise, and has been the work of some weeks by those involved, and as i said before I do support it.

I really do have every faith in the team and know this wasn't a decision taken lightly. We should give it time to assess the impact before rushing to judgement and politely word our concerns; it is extremely unlikely this will be reversed but may very well be improved, especially if concerns are voiced in a civil manner.

Furthermore I am not the 'head' admin, and share authority equally with those I asked to lead Arelith with me. I am the 'ultimate' owner of Arelith currently, but that does not translate into my commanding my fellow admins, at all. Theoretically, of course I could make decrees but it is a hat I've not yet cause to wear, and certainly wouldn't in this case.

Nor should anyone want me too; I am every bit as fallible as anyone else.

Irongron wrote:it is extremely unlikely this will be reversed but may very well be improved, especially if concerns are voiced in a civil manner.

Please specify if you mean on the forums or privately, because the forums are a poor barometer of anyone attempting to critique the dev team (due to the dev defence force yowling to take it and like it; leave; or something about IC consequences).

Daedin wrote:I would like to know what Arena server a lot of you have been playing in and mistaking for Arelith, since you are expecting to rack up respawn times of rl hours that often.

1. The Arena server where the devs felt it necessary to lengthen death timers from PvP.

2. A level 30 dying once will have a respawn timer of two RL hours that you have to be online for. If you only have a couple hours to play a week, this could easily stretch into your entire weekly playtime for a character, or more. I predict a lot of idling in houses.

Regardless of how player hostile it is, or how reminiscent the opinions I'm seeing are of the old 'well go play the harry potter server then hue hue hue' things I'm seeing, it's not getting reversed. But: Not getting reversed so people have to work around something not designed to be fun, at all, to have fun on a server with people they otherwise enjoy, is not the same as a successful update.

Also, question for the devs: If yall were working on this for weeks, and knew that a revamp of how the death area behaved was probably necessary, why was it done in this order?