Arelith

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:47 pm**

Kirito wrote:
Ozzy.nl wrote:BTW I was wondering what skills would compliment the build obviously tumble diceplines concentration and spellcraft. But would parry add some quality as well?
Parry can be fun but has a lot of caveats in it.

Since you can only parry as many attacks/round as you have APR, up to 3 total, would parry even work with the APR granted by Spellsword?

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:17 pm**

yellowcateyes wrote: 23 Spellsword / 4 Fighter / 3 Rogue
Full Build - https://pastebin.com/HBUHfD8Z
AC = 60, 70 in IE [10 + 13 DEX + 4 INT Dodge + 20 EMA + 4 Haste + 1 Boots + 6 Tumble +2 Armor Skin]
AB = 41, 43 with GMW [16 BAB + 6 Spellsword AB + 13 DEX + 3 Focus + 3 Weapon]
HP = 436
Damage = [Weapon + Essence] + 2 STR + 11 INT + 6 Weapon Spec
Caster Level = 23, 26 vs Dispels (28 with Arcane Defense: Abjuration)
Misc: 2 Free Pre-Epic Feats

24 Spellsword / 6 Fighter
Full Build - https://pastebin.com/0WsvRTDP
AC = 58, 68 in IE [10 + 13 DEX + 5 INT Dodge + 20 EMA + 4 Haste + 1 Boots+ 3 CC'd Tumble + 2 Armor Skin]
AB = 43, 45 with GMW [17 BAB + 6 Spellsword AB + 13 DEX + 3 Focus + 3 Weapon + 1 Prowess]
HP = 444
Damage = [Weapon + Essence] + 2 STR + 11 INT + 6 Weapon Spec
Caster Level = 24, 27 vs Dispels (29 with Arcane Defense: Abjuration)
Misc: 2 Free Pre-Epic Feats, no UMD

These builds both have Extend Spell twice, at level 1 and again at 9.

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:02 pm**

Baron Saturday wrote:These builds both have Extend Spell twice, at level 1 and again at 9.

Good catch. The second feat in both builds should be Empower Spell. Redid the pastebin so they should be fixed.

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:40 pm**

Baron Saturday wrote: Since you can only parry as many attacks/round as you have APR, up to 3 total, would parry even work with the APR granted by Spellsword?

Yes, works as well as parry can work

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:24 am**

Thoughts on using Spellsword as a dip for imbue weapon/armor and the Int damage bonus? Something like Fighter 15/WM 7/SS 8 or Fighter 16/WM 7/SS 7. You wouldn't cast anything natively, rather using wands and scrolls to imbue weapons and armor in order to maintain your mundane caster level. You'd lose out on 2 AB (assuming first 4 levels SS and then Fighter/WM up to 20) and 3 AC (crossclassing tumble) from a standard 20/7/3 WM build, but get up to 1d12+4 damage extra, imbue effects, SF/GSF access, and craft wand for all wandable wizard spells. Also your effective caster level for resisting dispels would be 33.

Anything I've overlooked here?

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:57 pm**

How confident are we that using wands and scrolls to imbue is intended behavior? If that's changed, the build is 100% shot, so I'd be completely sure about that before starting the character.

Personally I'm all for people trying new variations instead of sticking to the old recipes, though. I don't think it will overturn the current meta if I'm being honest, but it seems like it might be fun.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:25 pm**

I can't find the quote now, but I distinctly recall Kirito answering that being able to imbue from wands and scrolls being intended.

I certainly hope it stays, lets the spellsword keep a lot of non-buff spells prepared in their spellbook.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:35 pm**

Baron Saturday wrote:Anything I've overlooked here?

I've had some issues combining temporary essences with Imbue damage, as one frequently overwrites the other. Given that, you might not actually be increasing your damage in a meaningful way in exchange for those points of AB and AC.

If that issue is resolved or a workaround is found, the dip approach might be a fun alternative.
There are a few additional wrinkles though: the added imbue damage would be still subject to costs - using a Circle 7+ scroll every time you want the highest damage. And you unfortunately won't get much mileage at all from the low DCs of imbue effects (SS class level + 10); you'd basically be fishing for 1s .

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:08 pm**

yellowcateyes wrote:
Baron Saturday wrote:Anything I've overlooked here?
I've had some issues combining temporary essences with Imbue damage, as one frequently overwrites the other. Given that, you might not actually be increasing your damage in a meaningful way in exchange for those points of AB and AC.

If that issue is resolved or a workaround is found, the dip approach might be a fun alternative.
.

Should be resolved now, but you have to apply the essence first

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:29 pm**

I think I remember reading somewhere that if you are going to be using a 2-hander, Disarm is better than Knockdown. Did I make that up or is it in fact better?

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:18 pm**

Maladus wrote:I think I remember reading somewhere that if you are going to be using a 2-hander, Disarm is better than Knockdown. Did I make that up or is it in fact better?

Normally disarm is done at a -6 attack penalty, if people are using the same sized weapon. With a 2-hander, you'll decrease that to -2. Knockdown is done at -4.

Disarm is the better choice if you're: 1) Looking for survivability, 2) Have high damage and AB and wanting to possibly cash in on possible AoO's as the person goes for their dropped weapon.

However, if you went the improved versions for either knockdown or disarm, knockdown is just usually better. Improved disarm just doesn't force you to proc a AoO on yourself. Improved KD lets you negate the -4 entirely.

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:46 pm**

The thing with disarm is that if you are using - say - a large weapon, and your enemy is using a tiny, you don't get a penalty. You get a +6 to AB. Up to +10 if you have Improved Disarm.
In theory. I actually never tested it myself.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:55 pm**

That is indeed how it works, you get a raw attack bonus.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:01 pm**

liver and bones wrote:Improved KD lets you negate the -4 entirely.

I'm not sure about that. I think imp KD simply makes the character count as one category larger (which means +4 against the target's discipline check, not their ac). Cortex or anyone can you confirm?

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:29 pm**

IKD gives you a bonus to your effective AB that they make the discipline check against, but you still roll the actual attack at the -4.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:59 am**

TimeAdept wrote:IKD gives you a bonus to your effective AB that they make the discipline check against, but you still roll the actual attack at the -4.

That's what I meant, exactly, although the way you put it is probably clearer.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:28 am**

How valuable is Arcane Defense: Abjuration? Is it worth giving up IKD for?

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:39 am**

Depends on your build. The fewer levels of spellsword you have, the more valuable it is. Roughly speaking, I'd say take it if you're going to have 24 or fewer spellsword levels.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:36 am**

Deathdealer2.0 wrote:How valuable is Arcane Defense: Abjuration? Is it worth giving up IKD for?

It is.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:58 pm**

I wouldn't bother with IKD on a spellsword personally, your AB isn't ever going to be high enough to really benefit a great deal from it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:43 pm**

Edited a couple of the STR Greensteel builds to take advantage of the new, built-in ASF reduction for armor. They're slightly stronger now.

STR WM build deleted from the list until I have time to rework it.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:36 am**

yellowcateyes wrote:Edited a couple of the STR Greensteel builds to take advantage of the new, built-in ASF reduction for armor. They're slightly stronger now.

STR WM build deleted from the list until I have time to rework it.

I was looking through the Greensteel builds and noticed you still take Still Spell with both of the STR builds (I didn't check the DEX builds). With the 5% reduction from the path and the 5% on the armor, doesn't this feat become worthless?

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:56 am**

Maladus wrote:I was looking through the Greensteel builds and noticed you still take Still Spell with both of the STR builds (I didn't check the DEX builds). With the 5% reduction from the path and the 5% on the armor, doesn't this feat become worthless?

Greensteel isn't available in low levels, and Still Spell makes life easier for a newbie Spellsword reliant on armor for AC. I didn't feel comfortable with dropping it completely, and the builds weren't particularly strapped for pre-epic feats.

Later on, it has an (albeit niche) use in allowing the Spellsword to opt for extra protection by swapping their greensteel breastplate for other types of armor while retaining spellcasting.

If you're confident about surviving and leveling up without it, don't hesitate to drop the feat for something else.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:08 am**

For non-human builds, dropping that feat and dealing with the annoyance may be worth it.

Posted: **Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:38 am**

Maladus wrote:For non-human builds, dropping that feat and dealing with the annoyance may be worth it.

Make scrolls. I managed just fine.

Arelith

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