Examine: Race/sub

[BegoneThoth]

The speed at which members of this community went from 'not having this feature for five years/ever for newer people' to 'you're a bad RPer if you DONT want your race known to the whole server' was legendary though so good job on that, us.

Likely due to the secret drow secret tiefling stuff that was going on where the only way to know was to kill them and look at their skull.

[Cortex]

yes, another skill needed in an era where skills are in higher demand than ever before, with every gear slot with bluff no less

If you want to disguise that bad, isn't it fair to say 'take the disguise skill?'

Or do you believe that's somehow unfair?

It isn't a disguise when they're not hiding who they are. It has been made explicitly clear that the disguise feature is to hide who the character is, not what they are.

[BegoneThoth]

yes, another skill needed in an era where skills are in higher demand than ever before, with every gear slot with bluff no less

If you want to disguise that bad, isn't it fair to say 'take the disguise skill?'

Or do you believe that's somehow unfair?

It isn't a disguise when they're not hiding who they are. It has been made explicitly clear that the disguise feature is to hide who the character is, not what they are.

If you're concealing a "a very monstrous trait which he actively hides" I'd say the bluff skill is applicable by your own admission here.

[Cortex]

If he had a third nipple (I actually read somewhere that's applicable for tieflings...), it wouldn't take bluff to hide it, just wear a shirt. It's not too different with a lot of other things if they can be easily covered. Never take off that shirt.

[One Two Three Five]

[citation needed]
I dislike the idea of throwing on ooc tags about everything because of a hypothetical person getting away with it in a case that probably should've been forwarded to the dms but I guess the server's going in a route I disagree with, so disagreeing is all that can be done. Alas. Red Ropes made the suggestion I would've made, and 'updates getting reverted' is pretty rare, so, peace out on this one, I guess.

One last note: Pretending that 'hiding a physical feature' and 'pretending to be an entirely different person' are somehow covered by the same mechanic (they aren't) is an argument in bad faith which, BegoneThoth, seriously, you should consider not making in every third thread.

[Sab1]

I can understand features being noticable during interactions, but as it stands someone can rush past you and blitz-examine and have ultimate proof of what you are. I won't comment more on this, until it's been in effect for a while. See if it's abused or not.

Being able to see subraces was abused for a long time before the ability to tell on a spot check was removed. I have absolutely no confidence that this will not be violently abused and promptly metagamed. I'm in full agreement with Stath on this one.

Not being to see subraces has been abused for so long. To simply toss a helmet and robe on and have say something like a drow say I'm an elf with hardly any bluff and expect that you are pretending to be an elf so well no one can notice? Or for an elf to dress as a drow and try to pass as a drow in the UD and people can only tell if you are dead or show skin? This is what bluff is for, to be able to rp you have studied drow so long you can impersonate their mannerisms and speech. Not just toss on a helmet and expect no one if they break your disguise could say, that's not an elf.

[Feral One]

If he had a third nipple (I actually read somewhere that's applicable for tieflings...), it wouldn't take bluff to hide it, just wear a shirt. It's not too different with a lot of other things if they can be easily covered. Never take off that shirt.

Don't give away tiefling secrets!

Anyway, yeah, I have to agree. Showing races was removed for a reason, and sure now it's tied to lore, but if you want to do that, it should be higher than 15. You can chug a potion, have like 5 lore(to identify most jewelry) and suddenly identify anybody that isn't a 5% race? Neat idea, and I remember back when it was originally around and when it was getting abused, but it needs something higher than a potion's cost and 3 points in a skill(assuming 14 int).

[One Two Three Five]

Last post in here I swear: By similar logic as that in support of this, being a pale master, an RDD, and possibly other classes (monk? clerics give off a divine aura? warlocks typically have brands or other markers for their pact in FR lore?) should Also get tagged in your bio, yes? You can't just stick a bone arm under a sleeve and call it a day and expect to never get caught out, right? You should need to take bluff and disguise to hide it.

[Lorkas]

It is the reality in Arelith now that if you have studied enough, you can pick out subtle signs that someone is planetouched. The planetouched character can hide those signs if they train to do so, but the signs are there. If you choose to RP that your character doesn't have any such signs and then try to use that line of RP to try to make people squirm about to explain how their character knows that you are a tiefling, then I'm sorry, but you're the one that's RPing poorly.

You can either designate what those signs are yourself or you can let them say something like "I detected a fiendish aura about you" or something like that, but either way the reality is that something about your character serves as an indicator of their heritage.

I can't even fathom how somebody could think that this is a positive thing. This is "those are drow tracks!" tier -- for a race that can be portrayed in many more ways than somebody with a "fiendish aura about them." (really, what?)

I'm not remotely saying this is a good way for it to go down. What I'm saying is that as a tiefling you have the choice to either try to control how people "know" your heritage through your own RP, or, if you insist on trying to make someone who knows your heritage state how they know it, you can expect lame generic things like a "fiendish aura" given as a handwave explanation.

Nor am I saying people are bad RPers if they don't want everyone to know their race... but if your response to a character discovering your race is to try to make them make something up about your character instead of revealing it yourself somehow, then that is not great play.

When someone says "You're a tiefling", "How did you know?!" is a lame response that will just promote further lameness. That's all I'm saying.

[Cortex]

What would a "not lame" response be to a random accusation?

[flower]

I can understand features being noticable during interactions, but as it stands someone can rush past you and blitz-examine and have ultimate proof of what you are. I won't comment more on this, until it's been in effect for a while. See if it's abused or not.

Being able to see subraces was abused for a long time before the ability to tell on a spot check was removed. I have absolutely no confidence that this will not be violently abused and promptly metagamed. I'm in full agreement with Stath on this one.

Not being to see subraces has been abused for so long. To simply toss a helmet and robe on and have say something like a drow say I'm an elf with hardly any bluff and expect that you are pretending to be an elf so well no one can notice? Or for an elf to dress as a drow and try to pass as a drow in the UD and people can only tell if you are dead or show skin? This is what bluff is for, to be able to rp you have studied drow so long you can impersonate their mannerisms and speech. Not just toss on a helmet and expect no one if they break your disguise could say, that's not an elf.

What prevents you to have their helmet removed? I did it several times and easily and quickly uncovered said person was a drow on my elf.

If i would exxagerate things now, if we put all into tags, then drow can walk freely with his white hair around, and if you do not pierce his disguise you cannot claim he is a drow and same with blonde elf in UD.

[DarkDreamer]

Quite simply? The player deciding that they don't want to remove it as you cannot mechanically force them to remove it, even as a guard.

[flower]

Quite simply? The player deciding that they don't want to remove it as you cannot mechanically force them to remove it, even as a guard.

Then, as a guard, you may arrest the person until things clear up.

What would you do if it was a drow? You would fight it or arrest it as well. So what is difference? when someone acts weird then something is not in order and your character should act in given manner. Use common sense and logic?

Or when someone is acting so weirdly around and suspiously and you just shrug as guard and walk off? Lol. I see no logic in that.

There are laws forbidding you to carry weapon around in city, yet noone ever put enough thinking into making law against concealing face?

[Invader_Nym]

The problem with all this is really the disguise system, because it waves a big flag that says 'I'M HIDING SOMETHING' by making the (disguise) tag mandatory. I don't walk around examining every single individual I pass, but I /definitely/ examine every single disguised person I pass. This is a problem.

The disguise system is also supremely susceptible to meta-gaming and abuse. If you've got some guy who's disguised, and you can't beat the disguise, you just send a PM to your friend with high spot, and he "coincidentally" shows up and breaks the disguise, and we can't do anything about it.

[DarkDreamer]

The problem with all this is really the disguise system, because it waves a big flag that says 'I'M HIDING SOMETHING' by making the (disguise) tag mandatory. I don't walk around examining every single individual I pass, but I /definitely/ examine every single disguised person I pass. This is a problem.

The disguise system is also supremely susceptible to meta-gaming and abuse. If you've got some guy who's disguised, and you can't beat the disguise, you just send a PM to your friend with high spot, and he "coincidentally" shows up and breaks the disguise, and we can't do anything about it.

If you suspect metagaming and cheating in that nature, Screenshot and report!

[Invader_Nym]

If you suspect metagaming and cheating in that nature, Screenshot and report!

There are various different forms of meta-gaming for which there is immense plausible deniability such that to prove it took place is a logistical nightmare that just bogs everyone down and doesn't pay off.

[Aftond]

Not being to see subraces has been abused for so long. To simply toss a helmet and robe on and have say something like a drow say I'm an elf with hardly any bluff and expect that you are pretending to be an elf so well no one can notice? Or for an elf to dress as a drow and try to pass as a drow in the UD and people can only tell if you are dead or show skin? This is what bluff is for, to be able to rp you have studied drow so long you can impersonate their mannerisms and speech. Not just toss on a helmet and expect no one if they break your disguise could say, that's not an elf.

The problem is that a tiefling can have very subtle features, to a degree where you /need/ further scrutinizing to figure it out to be one. Even without a helmet. Elves and drow are so radically different, so they cant be compared.

[Nitro]

I just want to know how every jimbob joe can tell apart shield-dwarves, gold-dwarves and wild dwarves at a glance. Or Lightfoot/strongheart halflings, or wild/wood elves. Because 10 lore is a really, really low bar for those of other races. Every level 7 no-int fighter could make that roll easily.

I think it'd be much more interesting to bring up all the DC's markedly, put regular subraces on 20 and planetouched on 30 or 40. That way you actually need an investment of lore to identify them rather than a token amount that a lot of characters dump for identifying scrolls anyway. And this also gives rangers with the appropriate FE another little cookie.

[BegoneThoth]

I just want to know how every jimbob joe can tell apart shield-dwarves, gold-dwarves and wild dwarves at a glance. Or Lightfoot/strongheart halflings, or wild/wood elves. Because 10 lore is a really, really low bar for those of other races. Every level 7 no-int fighter could make that roll easily.

I think it'd be much more interesting to bring up all the DC's markedly, put regular subraces on 20 and planetouched on 30 or 40. That way you actually need an investment of lore to identify them rather than a token amount that a lot of characters dump for identifying scrolls anyway. And this also gives rangers with the appropriate FE another little cookie.

Doesn't skin tone reveal it?

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm just going to hop in and copy paste this, hoping that some answer will be given in due time.

I guess my question is why do the devs think this is something positive and how do they see it actually working in game.

[Durvayas]

[citation needed]
I dislike the idea of throwing on ooc tags about everything because of a hypothetical person getting away with it in a case that probably should've been forwarded to the dms.

One last note: Pretending that ___ is an argument in bad faith which, BegoneThoth, seriously, you should consider not making in every third thread.

I agree with you on both of these points, particularly the bolded one, which could be posted in any of several active threads at this point.

[Ork]

I don't walk around examining every single individual I pass, but I /definitely/ examine every single disguised person I pass. This is a problem.

Agreed. You should stop doing that.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I'm just going to hop in and copy paste this, hoping that some answer will be given in due time.

I guess my question is why do the devs think this is something positive and how do they see it actually working in game.

Not a dev, but my guess is that the reason for planetouched races being shown/being shown at the current requirement levels is so that everyone who picks a shiny subrace because it was there and shiny, or because it had mechanical buffs they liked the look of, remembers that things like race have RP Consequences which you can't just hide under a poor graphical engine.

I do (as the person who posted the suggestion for races on examine which I can only assume at least partly motivated this) feel the lore requirement could be a touch higher though. But we only have a fraction of the devs' perspective on how the server works so frankly, I trust them to have got it right.

[Sab1]

Quite simply? The player deciding that they don't want to remove it as you cannot mechanically force them to remove it, even as a guard.

Then, as a guard, you may arrest the person until things clear up.

What would you do if it was a drow? You would fight it or arrest it as well. So what is difference? when someone acts weird then something is not in order and your character should act in given manner. Use common sense and logic?

Or when someone is acting so weirdly around and suspiously and you just shrug as guard and walk off? Lol. I see no logic in that.

There are laws forbidding you to carry weapon around in city, yet noone ever put enough thinking into making law against concealing face?

Ok as someone who has played a guard it's never that easy. You ask someone to remove helmet, they say no, it's never just simply arrest them. It's usually means pvp because they refuse and either run or attack you. So then you find out they were a drow because they are dead.

This simply makes it so now disguised people have to put some effort and bluff into their disguise and can't simply take advantage of mechanics.

[flower]

Quite simply? The player deciding that they don't want to remove it as you cannot mechanically force them to remove it, even as a guard.

Then, as a guard, you may arrest the person until things clear up.

What would you do if it was a drow? You would fight it or arrest it as well. So what is difference? when someone acts weird then something is not in order and your character should act in given manner. Use common sense and logic?

Or when someone is acting so weirdly around and suspiously and you just shrug as guard and walk off? Lol. I see no logic in that.

There are laws forbidding you to carry weapon around in city, yet noone ever put enough thinking into making law against concealing face?

Ok as someone who has played a guard it's never that easy. You ask someone to remove helmet, they say no, it's never just simply arrest them. It's usually means pvp because they refuse and either run or attack you. So then you find out they were a drow because they are dead.

This simply makes it so now disguised people have to put some effort and bluff into their disguise and can't simply take advantage of mechanics.

Hold a moment.

You examine them, find out they are drow, fight occurs, you win or die.

You did ask them for helmet, they refused, it turned down into fight, you won or die.

What is the difference, beside the option B demanded actually you rping guard thing other than cliking on examine?

Option C, going away, finding buddies, and telling them "tehre is a hell suspious guy over there, lets check him back me up" was as availeble as is now with examine.

The thing you cannot walk with sword out in Cordor (while it obvious warning for you to stay on alert), while you can have a guy dressed up like some kind of bandit with face being concealed no matter who is it racially, is totally fine, leaves me in an awe.