The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Feedback relating to the other areas of Arelith, also includes old topics.


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Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon »

I really feel like the defensiveness of some posters here is an unwarranted reaction to very civilly given feedback on server design.

"I can't achieve the objective the system put in place intends without sending a boatload of OOC tells (opposite to server design goals) to make sure no one wastes time for an objective that can't be completed, even in a fractional capacity."

While I believe the complete lack of reward involved in the process of an "over-leveled" writ-taker is a causation for this dilemma, people holding onto this thought and saying "but RP's" are ignoring the problem entirely.

I've never been asked to leave a lower level area that my character would linger in (to help or for other reasons) due to an XP hit, because there's still some form of progress. However, if you made every dungeon follow the same policy as writs when higher level players are around, interaction between varying level ranges during adventure would cease entirely- or the DM's would be flooded with reports of violations of the "Be Nice" rule.

Whether you care about other people's ability to get XP or gold out of the writs or not, I do not believe that is an ideal social dynamic to encourage or brush aside as unimportant.
rookie wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:08 pm
Liareth wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:40 am Maybe add an on-use to the writ item or a console command that tells you if your party can do the writ with their level spread? Or even just show it every time someone joins the party. That would cut the need for tells.
On-join would be nice, would also handle people that have no-tells on when they join and immediately see the message along with everyone else in the party.
This would be a fantastic amelioration of the problem. Although I do not believe it in any way addresses the cause, it would certainly assist with the symptom of tell storms.
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Tourmaline
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Tourmaline »

Is it really a problem if a level 15 helps a level 5 with some writs? The level 5 writs were probably easy anyway, and there's surely some sort of RP bonding going on whether it's training for a faction or a hired mercenary. I know there are some people who would take full advantage but.. it's not that much advantage in the long run and if it gives a master and apprentice or captain and their soldiers something to do I think that's a good thing.

I suggest just making it so having a level 21 and up in the group cancels the writ so there's no confusion (epics should know better anyway) and don't make it a crime to seek help from a higher level as long as they are still pre-epic.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby »

Tourmaline wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:57 pm Is it really a problem if a level 15 helps a level 5 with some writs? The level 5 writs were probably easy anyway, and there's surely some sort of RP bonding going on whether it's training for a faction or a hired mercenary. I know there are some people who would take full advantage but.. it's not that much advantage in the long run and if it gives a master and apprentice or captain and their soldiers something to do I think that's a good thing.

I suggest just making it so having a level 21 and up in the group cancels the writ so there's no confusion (epics should know better anyway) and don't make it a crime to seek help from a higher level as long as they are still pre-epic.
Wouldn't we rather see a level 15 power levelling a level 5, than the level 5 powerbuild soloing the content by themselves, anyway?
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Scurvy Cur »

No.

Or at least, the level 5 guy soloing the content should be way more intensely rewarded than the guy who does it with a level 15’s help.

For those unfamiliar with games, games tend to reward better, more ambitious play (or sheer luck) with better results. Since Arelith’s pve is for the most part very easy, one of the few metrics that distinguishes good or ambitious pve play from average or bad play is tackling pve content earlier than intended, and one of the metrics that distinguishes poor or overly timid play is completing pve content with a character that is way overleveled, or with help from a Character that is way overleveled. Likewise, NWN is limited in what rewards can be offered for good or ambitious play; XP and wealth are the two primary rewards. It follows that a properly designed system will reward good or ambitious play with larger gains of xp and wealth. Consequently, I would rather see people playing aggressively and getting rewarded for aggressive play than see people get the zero risk handhold through content.

If that’s a repulsive or bizarre idea to you, chances are that you don’t want a game, you want an animated treat dispenser. And that’s fine. Arelith has lots of space open for people that don’t want to play the game and just show up to get their xp/gp treats. You can get to 30 off of the 8xp circle grind if you really want to. But since you don’t care about the pve as a game, I cordially request that you leave systems in place that cater to the portion of the server that does.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by yellowcateyes »

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:31 pm I really feel like the defensiveness of some posters here is an unwarranted reaction to very civilly given feedback on server design.
The first thread on this subject was anything but civil.

I should elaborate on the background of the writ system as it would be helpful for future discussion. There still seems to be misconceptions about design philosophies and why the system exists.

Prior to the writ system (and arguably even now), the most efficient way of gaining XP was circle-grinding. This was because XP gain was primarily through monster kills, and PC income was primarily through monster loot. The 'grind' consisted of maximizing kill speed while minimizing travel time. The 'circle' part came in as savvy players located several adjacent areas - preferably with accessible boss mobs - to loop through. By the time you've cleared the last area, the first area's monsters have refreshed.

Additionally, clear speed was prioritized over risk. Few things were as inefficient as a visit to the fugue. That is to say, the system encouraged PCs to stick to no-risk endeavors, even if that meant speed-killing enemies for single-digit XP rewards (inefficient but safe for suboptimal setups). This led to the unfortunate situation of higher-level PCs occupying lower-level zones.

This led to multiple issues. From an area builder's standpoint, much of the server's areas and variety of landscapes went to waste - dungeons that were inefficient were simply avoided, while the most efficient areas were camped for several levels until it was time to move to the next level range. From the standpoint of DMs trying to encourage roleplay and cooperative storytelling, the circle-grinding paradigm led to the opposite - grindspot camping and pvp over npc spawns. From a player's standpoint, the grind was an unfun, soul-killing activity. And when you ventured beyond the grind into more dangerous areas, there was a good chance of running into another PC that was much higher level than yours, treating the area as a grindspot.

Late 2017, Irongron approached me about implementing a system that rewarded dungeon completion over grinding. The basic idea was to shift incentives from mob-kills and to rewarding a party for finishing a discrete task - an 'adventure,' so to speak. The system had several objectives.

1) Expand the range of areas that a PC could visit and still feel like being properly rewarded for their time. Areas with a layout, puzzles, or traps that made them 'inefficient' from a circle-grind perspective could offer higher rewards for their completion.

2) Push PCs into taking level-appropriate risks rather than clogging lower-level areas. PCs should be encouraged to go on dangerous adventures, rather than mass-killing low-risk mobs.

3) Encourage spontaneous adventuring parties of similarly-leveled characters, in a better approximation of the ad hoc parties of traditional D&D, rather than have the leveling process dominated by coordinated grind squads.

The daily quest system (better known now as 'writs' due to the IG item used to interface with the coding infrastucture) accomplished this through objective-based tasks, rewards that scaled with the difficulty of those tasks, and defined level ranges to continually 'graduate' adventurers into those areas best suited for their current level. Further, the quest system was extremely forgiving in regard to forming parties and sharing objective completion - tracking goals individually so a PC can join or leave an association at will.

Given the system's objectives, it is clear why permitting higher level characters to 'boost' low-level characters goes against why writs were implemented in the first place, and why such activities cut against the entire balance of risk vs reward present in any RPG system.

To be clear, the quest system is a system of incentives. It does not prohibit or restrict behavior. It encourages - through the carrot of XP and gold - certain desirable behaviors. You are free to do different things; just don't expect to get the carrot.

This is why I am sympathetic to ideas that minimize the 'need' for OOC tells and coordination. (Though, as many players have pointed out - repeatedly - in this thread, it's actually not that hard to roleplay around game systems. Arelith PCs have been doing so for years, long before quests were even a thing.) I am also open to suggestions to smooth the level boundaries and make them less intrusive. However, any suggestion that writs should ignore levels altogether is a non-starter.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Rwby »

Thanks YCEs. I'm not sure I agree with your implimentations, but your post was very helpful in understanding where you're coming from, and [while it might not seem that way] I do appreciate all the hard work that you're doing/have done/will hopefully continue to do.
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ReverentBlade
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by ReverentBlade »

The bracket just needs to be wider, is all. Two levels is a tiny, tiny span. At the sub-20 levels where writs are relevant, you can have characters that are twice as powerful as others while being half their level.

IE, my unarmed monk and my husband's spellsword.

Just changing it to be "more than three levels" instead of "three or more" would ease the trouble of finding that sweet spot.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo »

i'm not sure i understand the writ system completely, so sorry (well, not very sorry) to derail for a moment...

the writs have a level range for people who can accept the writ, and a character up to two levels higher than the writ can help, right? if that's the case, i don't see why anyone is complaining. if it's not the case, why isn't it? it seems like an extremely straightforward way to encourage appropriate leveled parties via "we're going to do an armed patrol of minmir." if you can get the writ, you're golden. if your buddy is a level below you, you can still help. but if you can't get the writ, you probably shouldn't be gun-ho about joining up.

if that's not the case, i think it needs tweaking tbqh. the writs have a level range, and if that range is 10-15, then level 10s through level 15s should be able to work together (plus bob who just lost the ability to get the writ this level, but he can come along). the complaints sound like this isn't the case, however, which has me confused.

as far as unoptimized builds are concerned, there's really no good way to account for that. you chose to not be a powerbuild, and... well, there isn't a big cookie at the end for you. but at least you get to feel superior for having a character that fits unique RP flavor instead of "scimitar FTR20/WM7/BRD3 #63851920," who we all know is really just "scimtar FTR20/WM7/BRD3 #119482" with a cockney accent. (unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily make you more interesting to others, but the big thing is for you to play the character you want and have fun. but the point is, if you choose to be underpowered, you will be underpowered)

and, yeah. like Ork said, if you're overleveled for an area when a party shows up, or significantly overleveled for the party that's forming, and you're not specifically requested, you should leave. there's no rule for it (and there shouldn't be, for the record), just like there's no rule that you have to say "thank you" when you're given something. it's just polite. it's been a more-or-less followed courtesy for years, for good reason (granted, once again. not a rule. shouldn't be one. it's just polite)
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Scurvy Cur »

thingsicantdo wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:35 pm the writs have a level range for people who can accept the writ, and a character up to two levels higher than the writ can help, right? if that's the case, i don't see why anyone is complaining. if it's not the case, why isn't it? it seems like an extremely straightforward way to encourage appropriate leveled parties via "we're going to do an armed patrol of minmir." if you can get the writ, you're golden. if your buddy is a level below you, you can still help. but if you can't get the writ, you probably shouldn't be gun-ho about joining up.
This is precisely how it works. For example, you can take the "clear the malarite temple" quest on characters up to level 16. You can clear it fine with characters up to level 18 in the party. If you start bringing people 19+, you run into trouble.
and, yeah. like Ork said, if you're overleveled for an area when a party shows up, or significantly overleveled for the party that's forming, and you're not specifically requested, you should leave. there's no rule for it (and there shouldn't be, for the record), just like there's no rule that you have to say "thank you" when you're given something. it's just polite. it's been a more-or-less followed courtesy for years, for good reason (granted, once again. not a rule. shouldn't be one. it's just polite)
It happens pretty infrequently, but I'm always immensely grateful to leaving-man when it does.

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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void »

Since my thread was locked...

I see current implementation as abomination, pretty much.

Previously you could tag along with anyone, and didn't have to respond to occasional worried "which level are you?".

And that was fun. In addition to that, high level adventurer could help a low level one, which generated RP and was fun as well.

Now, I suppose without sharing OOC information you'll be kicked from the party by people who want to have the writ completed.

Certain quests are also quite difficult, for example Malarite Temple. One of my now retired character finally managed to complete it at level 21. I suppose with current system this quest would've never been finished.

The system kills some of the parts of arelith I greatly enjoyed, and turn it more similar to a "grind server".
I think both level restrictions AND visible levels on the writs should be removed.

Levels are an OOC concept, so they should not be visible anywhere in the game, and no player should be required to tell them to anyone.
Another forum ban, here we go again.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Gnarh »

From the RPR Section of the Wiki:
30 Bonus: Shows exceptional aptitude to bring out the good RPer in those around them, is part of the living, breathing world and environment of Arelith.
40 Bonus : "A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."
You can control how you play. You can't control the world, and the Dev Team obviously has your feedback.

RP is being used as an excuse for mechanical advantage here. If you're half decent at RP you can find a way to make this work.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by yellowcateyes »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:10 amCertain quests are also quite difficult, for example Malarite Temple. One of my now retired character finally managed to complete it at level 21. I suppose with current system this quest would've never been finished.
Yes. Some quests have level limits that make them more difficult than other quests. Not-so-coincidentally, those same quests offer the best rewards. This is difficulty scaling.

Success on a writ task is not meant to be guaranteed. At any given level range, there are 'milk run' quests that require little more than visiting points X, Y, and Z. There are also higher-paying quests that offer significant risk for level-appropriate characters. There are no impossible quests - any writ can be accomplished by a competent party in the level range given.

Pick the jobs you're capable of doing. If you bite off more than you can chew, then you've made a common error in the adventuring profession. Either abandon the task or find similarly-leveled adventurers to team up with.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void »

yellowcateyes wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:20 am --snip--
I wonder why people feel the need to tell a lecture.

Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
Another forum ban, here we go again.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Hunter548 »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:31 am
yellowcateyes wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:20 am --snip--
I wonder why people feel the need to tell a lecture.

Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
"Hey there friend; What jobs is the Guild-Agent offering you? I'm trying to work on X"

You have now had this discussion about if they're too high level for you or not IC.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Cortex »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:31 am
yellowcateyes wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:20 am --snip--
I wonder why people feel the need to tell a lecture.

Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
I did that already, I didn't have tells on but I never had to use it, and I picked a quests I wasn't familiar with in places I had never been before(new areas). Solo for most part, with a subpar solo build.

This isn't exclusive to me either.
:)
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by yellowcateyes »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:31 am Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
There are plenty of players who do just that and do fine.

You are free to play however you want to play. What is less reasonable is expecting that this shared world will (or ought to) reward you with success as a matter of course.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void »

Hunter548 wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:35 am
NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:31 am
yellowcateyes wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:20 am --snip--
I wonder why people feel the need to tell a lecture.

Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
"Hey there friend; What jobs is the Guild-Agent offering you? I'm trying to work on X"

You have now had this discussion about if they're too high level for you or not IC.
"Hello, friend! I'm unable to assist you with your X, because the agent will not accept your writ if I participate! Also, the agent doesn't let pick any more writs, and does not accept the ones I try to complete. I've kept trying to finish the "clear the sewer gang" task for ten years, yet no matter how many hundreds of the bandits I slay, the agent is never satisfied.

I wonder what did I do wrong. My oaths forbid me to abandon the task I've undertaken, and I suppose now I'll remain forever on this wretched island. Perhaps I will once again hold vigil in the endless battlefield by myself, as slaying few hundred undead tends to brighten my mood. I wonder if I'm not strong enough to have my bandit writ accepted".
Another forum ban, here we go again.
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Cortex
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Cortex »

Image
:)
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void »

yellowcateyes wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:40 am
NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:31 am Try:
  • All tells disabled
  • No abandoning quests until they are completed.
Preferably without prior quest knowledge.
There are plenty of players who do just that and do fine.

You are free to play however you want to play. What is less reasonable is expecting that this shared world will (or ought to) reward you with success as a matter of course.
What's with all the lecturing?

If you paid any attention to things that were said, it was not about "being automatically rewarded", but about the world being coherent. Prior to the change you didn't have to worry about telling someone your level, and could in general just have fun without worrying about the whole OOC leveling nonsense. Now you have to take it into account, as you being present in a party can break somebody's quest, and levels are thrown into your face. And that stinks.

And this makes the world less coherent, less believable, less convincing and less enjoyable than it was before.
My opinion is by no means unique, by the way, and there seems to be people that share sentiment.

It is about this change beign perceived as something that makes the server worse than it was before and more like an MMO. There are tons of MMOs to play, but there's only one arelith. It is not about "how to play".

*sighs*
Last edited by Void on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Another forum ban, here we go again.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:42 am
"Hello, friend! I'm unable to assist you with your X, because the agent will not accept your writ if I participate! Also, the agent doesn't let pick any more writs, and does not accept the ones I try to complete. I've kept trying to finish the "clear the sewer gang" task for ten years, yet no matter how many hundreds of the bandits I slay, the agent is never satisfied.

I wonder what did I do wrong. My oaths forbid me to abandon the task I've undertaken, and I suppose now I'll remain forever on this wretched island. Perhaps I will once again hold vigil in the endless battlefield by myself, as slaying few hundred undead tends to brighten my mood. I wonder if I'm not strong enough to have my bandit writ accepted".
Image

no system on god's green earth will fix that amount of obtusity
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Peppermint
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Peppermint »

I am so confused.

Worth noting: when I was an active contributor, I pretty much ignored statements about 'muh immersion', because such claims tend to be disingenuous at best. It's generally just shorthand for, "I don't like this change, and I want to win the argument by fiat."

Each and every one of you is capable of creative roleplay, and each and every one of you is capable of circumventing the 'challenges' you've outlined. You're smarter than that. I don't for a moment believe otherwise.

If you take issue with the change, I recommend taking another approach entirely. Ask yourself why writs were changed and how those problems might be addressed. Then listen. Listening, I assure you, will carry you far in any disagreement.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Void »

Cortex wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:45 am Image
It describes exagerrated scenario where you overleveled all you quests, have three of them, and can no longer complete any of them because your level is too high. Your character level is too high to assist the person that asked you, and being present in the party will break their writ. And, since you already got three quests, agent gives you no more of them. All is possible with current scenario.
Peppermint wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:00 am "I don't like this change, and I want to win the argument by fiat."
I thought this forum section was called "Feedback". Arguing with feedback kinda defeats its purpose, and the section would be better off with comments disabled, like "suggestions".

I'm quite certain the devs can decide by themselves what to do based on feedback provided.
Another forum ban, here we go again.
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by thingsicantdo »

fair. but there's a difference between good (useful) feedback and bad (useless) feedback.

it's like looking at the reviews on amazon. "hey, here's an object i want to purchase. let us see the reviews. average of 2 stars? must be awful! let's see. 'got object. works good. mail came late so giving 1 star.' ... uhh..."

this is the equivalent of, say, "i've completely gone out of my way to break a system and now it's broken. rather than try to fix it, i choose to irrationally adhere to its brokenness, citing ROLE PLAY. therefore, the system is bad."
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by Hunter548 »

NegInfinity wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:10 am It describes exagerrated scenario where you overleveled all you quests, have three of them, and can no longer complete any of them because your level is too high. Your character level is too high to assist the person that asked you, and being present in the party will break their writ. And, since you already got three quests, agent gives you no more of them. All is possible with current scenario.
you know you can drop writs right
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Re: The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

Post by PinataPlethora »

If you get too high, are you prevented from completing a quest, or is it just that you can't have anyone of higher level in your party, and have to solo it?
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