Arelith

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:30 pm**

Replace the collar with a house arrest anklet that goes off every time your slave leaves the area of their clamping. Possibly even include the ability to scry them without the spell focus and then you can hunt them down / spy on them / Extra paranoia.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:39 pm**

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:30 pm Replace the collar with a house arrest anklet that goes off every time your slave leaves the area of their clamping. Possibly even include the ability to scry them without the spell focus and then you can hunt them down / spy on them / Extra paranoia.

We can already pay the slavemaster to summon slaves for us, it would be nice if for an even larger fee we could scry on them! Maybe a special mindflayer slavemaster with a view screen he lets us use.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:46 pm**

@Hazard
That'd be cool~

====

The people saying that the "slave system" needs to be "abolished" are taking this to an OOC level that isn't cool. It's an entirely non-mandatory system. We all agree that nobody should be OOCly forced into it, and that there ARE quirks to how the system is implemented does need to be fixed, but people are making demands that a system is removed that they are not required to participate in...

... and that SOME PEOPLE actually enjoy participating in.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:48 pm**

Hazard wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:39 pm
Cerk Evermoore wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:30 pm Replace the collar with a house arrest anklet that goes off every time your slave leaves the area of their clamping. Possibly even include the ability to scry them without the spell focus and then you can hunt them down / spy on them / Extra paranoia.
We can already pay the slavemaster to summon slaves for us, it would be nice if for an even larger fee we could scry on them! Maybe a special mindflayer slavemaster with a view screen he lets us use.

Not sure about that. My character for instance is already paranoid because UDers are often scrying on some slaves. I feel like that could just kill more RP for the slave when he comes/is summoned to Surface to speak. My character will simply start not to speak to slaves without a scrier nearby if he learns UDers can all scry. Which I think kills all possible spy-RP because characters will just close themselves.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:52 pm**

Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:48 pm Not sure about that. My character for instance is already paranoid because UDers are often scrying on some slaves. I feel like that could just kill more RP for the slave when he comes/is summoned to Surface to speak. My character will simply start not to speak to slaves without a scrier nearby if he learns UDers can all scry. Which I think kills all possible spy-RP because characters will just close themselves.

What is the down-side of this? The slave collar system is a way to bring people into RP with the -other- side: Its intent is not to make it easy to spy on the slave owner and their allies. o . O It's supposed to be beneficial to the clamper to have the slave clamped... not create endless and constant vulnerabilities to the slave owner.

One of the complaints from the UNDERDARK side of this argument is that there are more enemy spies than useful slaves, and the system is almost as irritating to -us- in that regard as it is to the surfacers and we'd prefer it be FIXED rather than lose the system.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:57 pm**

Even if someone scries you as a surfacer helping a slave, it's unlikely they can do anything about it. Arelith is a huge island and the majority of UD races cannot operate in cities and during daylight, they might post a bounty on you but there is no reason to be paranoid I assure you.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:02 pm**

I've had a character taken slave once. We used the prisoner clamp and a tag added to description because it was my first experience as a slave and, as dominantdrowess said, it's optional. I did not want the stress of a big decision and so I didn't make one.

We kept the prisoner collar for what felt like a very long time. The RP was amazing and among some of the best memories I've ever made on Arelith. At the time, with that owner (kudos to Aunillara <3), the Underdark really did feel like the Underdark. I was so extremely immersed that I couldn't believe it. All the lore surrounding Drow, Elves and everything the Underdark became so real. It was beautiful.

I think a lot of this can be solved by adding a little OOC block of text to clampers explaining the rules and expectations. The current system really is a lot of fun when done correctly (both parties willfully participating and putting in effort for EACH OTHER).

This is a place to tell stories. If you are a slave, you should be aiming to create a fun experience for your owner. If you are a owner, you should be aiming to create a fun experience for your slave.

I really don't think we need much of a change except for increased awareness.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:17 pm**

dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:52 pm
Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:48 pm Not sure about that. My character for instance is already paranoid because UDers are often scrying on some slaves. I feel like that could just kill more RP for the slave when he comes/is summoned to Surface to speak. My character will simply start not to speak to slaves without a scrier nearby if he learns UDers can all scry. Which I think kills all possible spy-RP because characters will just close themselves.
What is the down-side of this? The slave collar system is a way to bring people into RP with the -other- side: Its intent is not to make it easy to spy on the slave owner and their allies. o . O It's supposed to be beneficial to the clamper to have the slave clamped... not create endless and constant vulnerabilities to the slave owner.

One of the complaints from the UNDERDARK side of this argument is that there are more enemy spies than useful slaves, and the system is almost as irritating to -us- in that regard as it is to the surfacers and we'd prefer it be FIXED rather than lose the system.

Of course it is a vulnerability to the UD. You're taking strong and goodly adventurers and bringing them in your headquarters to use them. I feel like it's your role to turn them before you can actually use them. That's also why I don't understand mass-enslavement at all.
When my character captures a drow or anything and bring them in places, he bandages their eyes before going anywhere. He removes it mostly when they are in a cell, keeps his helmet on and avoid saying his name. The intels you are giving to slaves are your responsability, and I feel like villains should be aware of that ICly. Another point is to use slaves to spread false intels, which I feel you already do sometimes.
I feel like a clever char will never ever let you get intels from scrying if he knows everyone can do that at will. So you'll not get anything throught scrying at all. If you know that each and every of your conversation can be spied, you take that into account and you never speak without being sure. If being spied stays rare, you can make mistakes and take less precaution, which allows the other side to get informations.

I also can see that it can be an issue because OOCly people don't want to swap sides. Usually real-slaves are just normal people, not mighty adventurers determined to do good, who will fight the evil anyhow.
In order to control the slave, I feel the weakening button is a way better thing to implement. If the slave knows he can be hurt if he does not give satisfying intels to his Masters ...
If you've a better way to adress it, I'm all ears out !

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:32 pm**

I listed them earlier in this thread in multiple posts, but you neither responded to them or quoted them.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:19 pm**

dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:15 pm This is being edited, and added to - please be patient.

I agree with Durvayas here on this one, the changes just proposed would destroy the slave system, not fix any of the issues addressed. Just because something is currently frustrating doesn't mean it cannot be fixed ... but to fix it requires people making suggestions to have the objective of it being a useful RP tool both from sides.

I don't think anyone here but Durvayas has spent time addressing the problems -the other- side has.

From the Underdark side, to be a useful RP tool:
1) The system has to accomplish an objective of tyranny. The system is about slavery. It needs to be useful for the Evil people to use. Basically appointing a character as another's principle antagonist and overlord, and the system needs to help facilitate this. Anything that lessons this, makes the system pointless. This is NOT the same as the 500,000 gold surcharge to get it off. This is about actual ability to influence a slave and impose upon them WHILE they're wearing the clamp.

2) I don't mind it costing money to put a clamp on someone, but it shouldn't be as expensive as the 500,000 gold charge to get it off (which I disagree should exist-- it's a band-aid at best for another problem I'll mention further down) though I think changing the name on a clamp does not need to be more expensive than it is. This is usually an agreed upon process between the owner and the slave, and impediments to this are, in my opinion, a bad idea. Surfacers are asking for it to cost more gold to clamp someone ... because they want to shadowban the system -- as they want it to be as bad in gold-cost for the Underdarkers as it is for them. I feel this can be fixed in another way.

3) It needs to not be possible to accidentally end up as a slave. The Beast gives serious OOC warnings, the Clamper needs to. This change needs to happen immediately, but I feel in general is NOT as much the fault of Underdarkers being OOCly malicious as much as it is them being held accountable OOCly for what happens in RP by the friends of people who engaged with the slave system. Players should not be held OOCly accountable for a poorly written dialogue and if the NPC is auto-clamping people, I imagine DMs will agree to fix this.

From the surface perspective:
This system has a few issues that make surfacers hate it that I'll outline as "OOC communication", "Lack of fun" and "Buyers Remorse".

1) OOC communication: ... people who take slave clamps often communicate with the person they allow to clamp them or enjoy the RP ... but they DO NOT communicate with the other players they're involved with IC as friends, family, allies, and so-on. This means that they themselves may have a good relationship with the character playing their Master ... but the people who are friends with that player often despise the master from an OOC perspective for entirely competitive reasons.

2) Lack of Fun: The system itself is not currently conducive to fun for surface players. It does not allow a villain to have much control over a character that is of epic level or well-connected, and? Even further, creates more vulnerabilities for the slave owner than the slave that they don't have without the system: The slave can (and will) spy for surface allies. The slave can (and will) change sides against the slave owner if the owner is confronted by surfacers. The slave can (and will) steal from the slave-owners home, or allow surfacers into the home if provided a key. The fact that the slave OWNER has literally ZERO recourse (in the moment of betrayal) for any of these actions outside of PvP violence makes the slave system ... a systemically weak, and an unfulfilling narrative experience. Even further than this ... the most common way of escaping the slave system is a faction pooling together 500,000 gold ... which basically equates a grinding tax that I feel needs to be eliminated entirely and replaced with the ability of the clamp-owner to release the slave willingly in the name of dynamic roleplay.

3) Buyers Remorse: When you have a systemic lack of fun from a transparently simplistic system that generally focuses on grinding to get rid of it.. an army of friends and family railing against the system in your IMs and continuously trying to get you to attack and betray the RP partner you've chosen (the slave owner), an inability to escape social stigma if you refuse to participate in the meta-gaming ... constant PvP assaulting your RP partner where you have to choose between participating in the narrative you've chosen or ignoring friends and family who very casually teleport into Andunor ... (I've delt with those numerous times, even when I wasn't the slave owner, surfacers magically come to -me- as if I have some power over it) ... I think it creates a very frustrating experience for the slave player. Even further than this ... the most common way of escaping the slave system once you encounter all this is a faction pooling together 500,000 gold ... which basically equates a grinding tax that I feel needs to be eliminated entirely and replaced with the ability of the clamp-owner to release the slave willingly in the name of dynamic roleplay.

The simplest solution to all of this ... is to remove the 500,000 gold requirement ... and make it so the slave owner is capable of releasing the slave themselves, which makes it so negotiating with the slave's owner actually has some kind of impact on the RP.

People are willing to die. But they aren't willing to lose 500,000 gold.

Most of the time, these ridiculous ransome prices exist just because the Underdark slave owner ... doesn't want to pay the 500,000 gold out of their own pocket because the slave got cold feet (because of their OOC friends whispering shame and anger in their ear) and is perfectly willing to let the player go when they feel OOCly pressured to get out of the slave RP... and I feel ignoring this is a crime against the slave owner, a crime against the slave player, and a crime against those who are so desperately trying to rescue them.

I've even tried going half way for them before and offering the low low price of 250,000 gold to free slaves to their ransomers before ... but people are absolutely intent on stuffing the full 500,000 gold down my throat like it's some kind of OOC grudge-match that they're willing to PvP you constantly to get you to swallow for them.

How meta-gamey do I have to be, to willingly swallow 250,000 gold in losses for a slave my character has full control of, with the resources of an entire city at her back? Taking the grind off the table, and making it about what happens in RP is better for everyone. If my character values a slave at one ingot of adamantine, I should be able to free them for that. If I value them at one gold coin on principle just to taunt a dwarf who hates me? I should be able to free them at that. Artificially inflating this hurts the surface players in ways that I feel are unfair to them as they don't have a parallel to the slave system.

This means... that if the slave's owner ends up disappearing, there ARE slaves that paladins, heroes, or even evil allies of the captured slave and the like can RESCUE as well, by taking possession of and immediately freeing said slave.

Picture being a paladin, and being able to say the words:
"I free you from slavery." And being the sole person responsible for it. That, to me, is story-worthy.

Sorry for that, I actually tried to answer to that post before, but I was on my phone and it deleted what I had written.

I mostly agree with the post. I've always found that the 500.000 gold thing was more an OOC thing that an IC one. It'd be okay if it was an exceptionnal thing, but as I stated on the beginning, it's way too common. It'd have make sense that my character would have wanted to free three people last week. 1.5 million gold and back to grinding during some times. Deleting it the right thing to do.

OOC warnings has to be rewieved for certain, same thing that the bug.

However, I am failing to see how suppressing the 500.000 gold tax would entail more control from the master on his slave ?
I don't see any connections between those two things besides just releasing the slave if he's spying ?

On the OOC metagaming and all of that, I really can't tell, as I never did that nor had some real cases brought in detail.

Also, if the owner can release the slave freely, it still does not fix the issue of Surfacers not being able to do much. I think that we need two ways to free slaves :
First one : PvPing the owner and UDers (With RP, of course), entailing RP, perhaps capturing the owner, and then forcing him/her to release the slave (Which is not OOCly burdening for anyone since it doesn't cost anything anymore, so that's great). But that's totally betting on people's fair-play (Which I want to believe into !)
Second one : Going throught a long and difficult serie of quest on the surface if the character IC requested it (The idea with the token and Harper thing is golden). Chances of mechanic leaks leading to the Master being informed of the slave and his surfacer friends effort would be neat so that the Master can actually react to that. The quest being intended to be quite long, they'd have some amount of time for that.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm**

The slavery system has always seemed to me like a system without any teeth. Masters don't have much mechanical support in the way of enforcing their position, beyond trolling their slaves with an inconvenient yoinking. Slaves can buy their freedom with a measly 500k, which you can pretty easily stash away from like two weeks of writs and corpse looting, not to mention the money you can make from picking up a trade. Most of the features from slavery are really just an inconvenience. Can't be a citizen, so you don't get district storage, on top of the slave housing being sparse and not being able to own property outside of that. Anyone with a chip on their shoulder can yoink you right out of dungeoneering or roleplay. And if your master just kinda vanishes without notice, you're stuck in limbo for a while. I don't think any of these things enhance slave roleplay. On the owner's side, well, Durvayas basically said it all.

So what would enhance the experience? I think a shock collar/stun button would be a phenomenal addition. More slave housing would be nice too, for master and slave alike (in the case of an untrusting master but one who still wants the slave's storage needs to be accommodated). I agree that purchasing a slave should be more expensive - maybe not 10k/level (feels silly that the slavemaster NPC would take a bribe for 500k when he could sell and resell you for 300k each time), but certainly more than 1k.

Personally, I think some post-slavery scars could also add an element of weight to the experience, but I understand that not everyone would agree. What I mean by that is, a mandatory description tag where the collar bit once was, now saying something like, "There are deep scars around this person's neck, marking where a slave collar once sat." Maybe with a high enough disguise skill, you could cover it up accordingly. Of course, anyone who wanted this feature in their description could add it in themselves, but I'll admit I kinda have the spies in mind when I suggest it. The people who collar themselves for a week to grab intel and then take off running once they're satisfied. It's treated so flippantly because, again, the system at this time doesn't have a lot of mechanical weight. It's too easy to get into, and (if you know how) it's too easy to get out of. But the intent for the system was for it to have a huge impact on the characters involved, I would think. Having it leave a visible mark on a character after the fact might go towards making it so.

Not saying this is universally true, but often I see slaves aren't really treated like slaves, and they don't often act like them either (though I'll say the quality of slave roleplayers in the Underdark nowadays is WAY up from what it was before). People obviously want the system, and enjoy being a part of it, so I don't think deletion is the route to go. But I do think it needs more substance, and I think it has to come from the mechanics for there to finally be a consistent experience. Because when it's left up to player interpretation, things can get a little off-setting - from slaves who have no business being that powerful and still being slaves, to slave-for-a-weekend surface spies, to mouthy or outright violently rebellious slaves who don't take the repercussions seriously.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:53 pm**

magistrasa wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm Text omitted;

Totally agree here with most of your points.

I make 500,000 gold in 5 hours of grinding level 15 monsters without owning a shop or a district. =/

If I gave ALL MY GOLD away to a slave owner ... and got clamped by them... my character's master could be offline to sleep 8 hours, and I could be free inside 5 hours without asking for a single gold coin from any other player, or selling any objects to PC's. Literally capable of this before I even got a keen weapon or any runes.

The 500,000 is just annoying and is too much of a temptation to an unfun mechanic.

Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:19 pm
dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:15 pm
Sorry for that, I actually tried to answer to that post before, but I was on my phone and it deleted what I had written.

I mostly agree with the post. I've always found that the 500.000 gold thing was more an OOC thing that an IC one. It'd be okay if it was an exceptional thing, but as I stated on the beginning, it's way too common. It'd have made sense that my character would have wanted to free three people last week. 1.5 million gold and back to grinding during sometimes. Deleting it the right thing to do.

OOC warnings have to be reviewed for certain, same thing that the bug.

However, I am failing to see how suppressing the 500.000 gold tax would entail more control from the master on his slave ?
I don't see any connections between those two things besides just releasing the slave if he's spying ?

On the OOC metagaming and all of that, I really can't tell, as I never did that nor had some real cases brought in detail.

Also, if the owner can release the slave freely, it still does not fix the issue of Surfacers not being able to do much. I think that we need two ways to free slaves :
First one : PvPing the owner and UDers (With RP, of course), entailing RP, perhaps capturing the owner, and then forcing him/her to release the slave (Which is not OOCly burdening for anyone since it doesn't cost anything anymore, so that's great). But that's totally betting on people's fair-play (Which I want to believe into !)
Second one : Going throught a long and difficult serie of quest on the surface if the character IC requested it (The idea with the token and Harper thing is golden). Chances of mechanic leaks leading to the Master being informed of the slave and his surfacer friends effort would be neat so that the Master can actually react to that. The quest being intended to be quite long, they'd have some amount of time for that.

MORE control is what gives the slavery system it's teeth, substance, and quality control of the RP.

And you're also missing the most important option, a third option in your list:
- Talking / RPing with the slave owner and negotiating with them.

We're talking about something equivalent to a gease or curse here. An object that can kidnap a level 30 epic level character without their consent or a saving throw. Typically, the best way to deal with someone who has something you want: especially some kind of ephermal control or spiritual authority ... -is- to give them something in turn. The Devil's Bargain -- as DM's do so frequently with warlocks that want to break their pacts. Removing the 500,000 gold cost and making it like this lowers the bar to allow it to be something of RP value (a fixture for instance that is highly prized -- something without "I win" or troll value like 5 hours of solo grinding costs).

If you can't force a slave owner to release a slave ... then maybe you should consider the fact that there is some OOC pact/agreement between the slave, and slave owner, the likes of which is required for the slave to get into the slavery system in the first place. Maybe the slave owner is going to make it difficult for you, or put you on a fetch quest because the slave -doesn't- want the RP to end just because and how you want it to.

In instances where there has been abuse and bugs, DM's -have- removed slave clamps before. I know people who have had clamps removed, and I think the first step to making you understand this problem is that you need to stop treating roleplayed slaves like OOC victims and acknowledge them how I see them: Equal collaborators in their own roleplay who are EQUALLY responsible for the fact that their character is in slavery with a magical slave clamp. When this relationship between them /starts/ ... the slave owner is down 30,000 gold in ADDITION to having a target on their back.

To not see them as that is doing a disservice both to the slave and to the Underdark side player when many of them work very hard to accommodate both them AND their departed faction's needs -- which are often all-consuming, continuous, and exhausting to the player expected to be the content provider in this roleplay scenario by the people who are constantly confronting them in their own settlements even without DM permission to lead attacks in those settlements.

Ultimately, what's required is to make the slave owner's character not as much a victim of the system's mechanics and costs as the slave's character for purposes of maintaining it's gravity and RP narrative ... and for the system to allow for negotiation with the slave's owner: Which it currently does not. The owner cannot free the slave. They CANNOT give you what you want, and people are PvPing them, spying on them, tracking their movements generally out of spite to a pointless end the master has NO more influence over than the paladin:

"'cause I ain't payin' you 500,000 to get your friend out of hock. I'm already down 30k." - Actual IC quote

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:19 pm**

dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:53 pm
magistrasa wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm Text omitted;
Totally agree here with most of your points.

I make 500,000 gold in 5 hours of grinding level 15 monsters without owning a shop or a district. =/

If I gave ALL MY GOLD away to a slave owner ... and got clamped by them... my character's master could be offline to sleep 8 hours, and I could be free inside 5 hours without asking for a single gold coin from any other player, or selling any objects to PC's. Literally capable of this before I even got a keen weapon or any runes.

The 500,000 is just annoying and is too much of a temptation to an unfun mechanic.

Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:19 pm
dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:15 pm
Sorry for that, I actually tried to answer to that post before, but I was on my phone and it deleted what I had written.

I mostly agree with the post. I've always found that the 500.000 gold thing was more an OOC thing that an IC one. It'd be okay if it was an exceptionnal thing, but as I stated on the beginning, it's way too common. It'd have make sense that my character would have wanted to free three people last week. 1.5 million gold and back to grinding during some times. Deleting it the right thing to do.

OOC warnings has to be rewieved for certain, same thing that the bug.

However, I am failing to see how suppressing the 500.000 gold tax would entail more control from the master on his slave ?
I don't see any connections between those two things besides just releasing the slave if he's spying ?

On the OOC metagaming and all of that, I really can't tell, as I never did that nor had some real cases brought in detail.

Also, if the owner can release the slave freely, it still does not fix the issue of Surfacers not being able to do much. I think that we need two ways to free slaves :
First one : PvPing the owner and UDers (With RP, of course), entailing RP, perhaps capturing the owner, and then forcing him/her to release the slave (Which is not OOCly burdening for anyone since it doesn't cost anything anymore, so that's great). But that's totally betting on people's fair-play (Which I want to believe into !)
Second one : Going throught a long and difficult serie of quest on the surface if the character IC requested it (The idea with the token and Harper thing is golden). Chances of mechanic leaks leading to the Master being informed of the slave and his surfacer friends effort would be neat so that the Master can actually react to that. The quest being intended to be quite long, they'd have some amount of time for that.
MORE control is what gives the slavery system it's teeth, substance, and quality control of the RP.

And you're also missing the most important option, a third option in your list:
- Talking / RPing with the slave owner and negotiating with them.

We're talking about something equivalent to a gease or curse here. An object that can kidnap a level 30 epic level character without their consent or a saving throw. Typically, the best way to deal with someone who has something you want: especially some kind of ephermal control or spiritual authority ... -is- to give them something in turn. The Devil's Bargain -- as DM's do so frequently with warlocks that want to break their pacts. Removing the 500,000 gold cost and making it like this lowers the bar to allow it to be something of RP value (a fixture for instance that is highly prized -- something without "I win" or troll value like 5 hours of solo grinding costs).

If you can't force a slave owner to release a slave ... then maybe you should consider the fact that there is some OOC pact/agreement between the slave, and slave owner, the likes of which is required for the slave to get into the slavery system in the first place. Maybe the slave owner is going to make it difficult for you, or put you on a fetch quest because the slave -doesn't- want the RP to end just because and how you want it to.

In instances where there has been abuse and bugs, DM's -have- removed slave clamps before. I know people who have had clamps removed, and I think the first step to making you understand this problem is that you need to stop treating roleplayed slaves like OOC victims and acknowledge them how I see them: Equal collaborators in their own roleplay.

To not see them as that is doing a disservice both to the slave and to the Underdark side player when many of them work very hard to accomodate both them AND their departed faction's needs -- which are often all-consuming, continuous, and exhausting to the player expected to be the content provider in this roleplay scenario by the people who are constantly attacking them in their own settlements even without DM permission to lead attacks in those settlements.

That's pretty much what I'm saying, that you need more control.

Yeah, well, the power of the collar is also why I think it should happen less, I don't think such items should be so easy to product that you can clamp tons of people with it RP-wise. But that's not really important to this thread.
On the grinding, it may be that 500.000 isn't much for many people, but I feel that personally it takes enought time to make to highly bother me. I don't ever want to grind five hours in a 15-level area, tbh, and I doubt I'd make 500.000, but I think the UD spawns a bit more gold - And I'm less efficient

I also agree that OOC consent is needed to free slaves, which is already taken in account in the quest feature since as proposed on this thread, the slave would have to ASK to be freed to start the quest. If OOCly he wants to keep the RP, he just does not start the quest mechanically.
Honestly, I do not know why you assume I'm seeing slaves as being OOC victims. It's not true, and I can very well understand that it can be a fun narrative arc, and I've no issues with it. I also don't get what you refer to, I've never witnessed Sencliff or the UD being raided to free slaves those times. Surface answer is rather to do nothing atm, and also, adding what I suggested would prevent raids from happening in many cases.

You're right on the fact that I missed the third option

- Though I'd highlight than coming down there to get the slave back or making the quest with UDers being aware is also supposed to entail RP - Well, sometimes it does not if people rush in the PvP without talking, but not much we can do about that.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:22 pm**

magistrasa wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm Personally, I think some post-slavery scars could also add an element of weight to the experience, but I understand that not everyone would agree. What I mean by that is, a mandatory description tag where the collar bit once was, now saying something like, "There are deep scars around this person's neck, marking where a slave collar once sat.

Without giving away too much, there is an item a slave gains if they are freed with the FOIG method. When worn, this item actually adds a green text description that hints the character was once a slave (like when one examines a character who is with the radiant heart). So something like this already sort of exists, just not in the exact way you're describing.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:23 pm**

Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:19 pm

You also don't have to come into Andunor to negotiate with the slave owner. A halfling runner can be used to tell someone you want to meet in the plane of shadows, or some other neutral location so that it -doesn't- turn into a PvP fest~ <3

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:25 pm**

Ecthelion wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:19 pm Well, sometimes it does not if people rush in the PvP without talking, but not much we can do about that.

That's a paddlin'. But really, if you're being pvped without RP, report that.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:26 pm**

True, true !
I don't like reporting very much, especially since sometimes it's only mechanical mistakes that cuts the RP. And well, I like to pass to another thing most of the times and not staying stuck in frustration ^^

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:35 pm**

Likewise?

Removing the 500,000 and implementing voluntary release by the owner would -allow- the system to be used for things like debt-slavery / money borrowing and many other FUNCTIONAL things OUTSIDE of controlling prisoners of war: Which would probably REDUCE strain on the surface factions over these issues and INCREASE the amount and type of storylines... and would make the slave MORE likely to behave (keeping the theme) because the owner is MORE likely to free them if they AREN'T an annoying constantly nagging ENEMY who is constantly acting suspicious and getting scried in weird places that they shouldn't be. (The Radiant Heart citadel and Arcane Tower are favorites)

It's an incentive to cooperate.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:00 pm**

Miskol wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:55 pm
I want the current slave system to be abolished or overhauled. As do many others replying to this topic.

I'm sorry to say the slave collar can be taken off just as easily as the prisoner one. The objectives of the FOIG method can be completed with help in under an hour if you really wanted to. As I pointed out earlier in my previous post, I believe the prisoner collar should be taken more seriously and not put on and taken off in a careless manner.

At least now you're admitting the intentions behind your suggestion.

Your explanation that the collar can be removed effortlessly actually helps prove my point about the ephemeral nature of the system from the 'owner' perspective, and why getting out of it should be made less effortless, and getting into it on accident utterly impossible.

A person CAN get out of their collar in under an hour. Sure they need to know someone who has stockpiled 50 units of X, 50 units of Y, 50 units of Z, a set of bluff gear, and and you need to be lvl 15 in a non mage class, but yes, if prepared for properly, anyone who OOCly knows the system can help anyone in the system spring the collar nearly instantly.

Which is why raising the prices is patently insane, and you know this full well. I expect arguements in bad faith like this from Begonethoth, not you. I'm disappointed. :/

--------------

Moving on...

magistrasa wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm The slavery system has always seemed to me like a system without any teeth. Masters don't have much mechanical support in the way of enforcing their position, beyond trolling their slaves with an inconvenient yoinking. Slaves can buy their freedom with a measly 500k, which you can pretty easily stash away from like two weeks of writs and corpse looting, not to mention the money you can make from picking up a trade. Most of the features from slavery are really just an inconvenience. Can't be a citizen, so you don't get district storage, on top of the slave housing being sparse and not being able to own property outside of that. Anyone with a chip on their shoulder can yoink you right out of dungeoneering or roleplay. And if your master just kinda vanishes without notice, you're stuck in limbo for a while. I don't think any of these things enhance slave roleplay. On the owner's side, well, Durvayas basically said it all.

So what would enhance the experience? I think a shock collar/stun button would be a phenomenal addition. More slave housing would be nice too, for master and slave alike (in the case of an untrusting master but one who still wants the slave's storage needs to be accommodated). I agree that purchasing a slave should be more expensive - maybe not 10k/level (feels silly that the slavemaster NPC would take a bribe for 500k when he could sell and resell you for 300k each time), but certainly more than 1k.

I'm actually glad you reminded me. Back when my character Rauvlin owned Feng and Myeko at the same time, I found a pair of gloves. Utterly trash in terms of actual utility, but they had a very interesting property that made them perfect for roleplay.

They gave you Electric jolt as a spell, unlimited times per day.

Mind you, electric jolt does 1d3 electric damage. Its not even fit to be used in PvE by lvl 2s. It will struggle to kill rats.
BUT...I used them as a shock collar, and Rauvlin kept Feng in line by punishing Myeko with a ZAP anytime Feng mouthed off or misbehaved. It was a FANTASTIC roleplaying tool. I didn't even roleplay them as gloves. I roleplayed it as a magic control bracelet.

So so far as enhancing the experience, being able to reliably have something similar, but with more oomph, would be great.

One idea I have is a command that can be sent as a tell(or using the player tool), that instantly, and savelessly, stuns the slave for 1 round, and deals 30 electric damage. Give the ability a 2 round cooldown.

A slave can talk back, they can be uppity, but fighting against their owner will be very, very difficult without help, as they'd be getting stunned every other round. Slaves will be unable to be oneshot killed by this item(unless your slave is a GoH wizard with 6CON, but that would die to the mushrooms and you have other problems), but it will put a huge dent in their health early on, and later on in levels they'll be able to shrug off the damage largely as an annoyance.

Another alternative(that while less controllable is no less useful) is a script that fires off anytime the slave takes a hostile action against their owner that hits them with a saveless curse or level drain as the collar activates countermeasures to thwart rebellion.
------------

Something else that would GREATLY improve the slavery system from the perspective of both slave and owner would be if citizenship of the owner allowed the slave to access territory owned by the settlement the owner belongs to.
So if, say, my character Rauvlin was a citizen of the table, and I want one of my slaves to go to the spore farms(assuming for this example it is owned by the table) and collect wood for the district or whatever, they'd be able to do it.
Right now, slaves do not have access to district controlled land bidding holdings, they cannot open the door.

Allowing a slave owned by district X to actually work in holdings owned by district X would be a big quality of life improvement for slaves and their owners. We could really put 'em to work in the mines, as they say.

More property for slaves only would not be a bad idea too. Coupled with the above, a couple small 1x1 room quarters could be located near the silver mines and the spore farms to incentivize this RP.

And the large number of slaves, well outnumbering the vocal minority calling for the removal of the system, I'll note with no small measure of bemusement, shows that people DO like and enjoy the slavery system as implemented. Every single person in this thread agrees that it could do with some changes. We're just splitting hairs over what we think needs doing. Those of us actually trying to improve the system, rather than making suggestions meant to sabotage it, at least.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:05 pm**

"Please make it so only the owner of the slave can use the slave caller. "
- As a slave I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I've been very lucky to get owners that don't buy my character/s and forget about them. But with that said some of what they do is have the slave work for the rest of the faction/house. Which is great. So I would like to think that perhaps have the slave caller answer to any in the faction. Tie the collar ownership to the faction they belong in? The second hesitation to this? I've had a character called by a random person twice. Both times mine happened to be right beside their Master as they were pulled away. Yes this stopped current roleplay but then again it created roleplay as the Master went searching for who stole away their slave. The rp generated was good. But again, I've been really lucky. I can see how others may not have had good experiences with it. I do not think that the yoink should be completely removed. A slave should have slim to no choices. OOC I think there should be a good understanding between master and slave to what they are willing to do and what is expected. This rp has a good hunk of trust to it.

"Slaves no longer get UD portals."
-Oh please no. When I made this slave they could not use the Hub portal and it was pure torture. We were flying through lenses till we realized a way to portal out of the city, which I am fairly certain now has its own mechanical block so not just anyone can use it, and ended up having to buy (which you can not do anymore) outcast status so that the Hub portal would start working. If a slave is made at the start please give them undercommon and the UD portals with a note that if this slave somehow gains freedom they lose the UD portals. Can those be linked to the collar? It shouldn't be so easy to make a slave and get portals and a language, good xp grinding, then free themselves to live on surface with these now perks.

"Don't see why this mechanic is needed, get rid of the collar and just rp the slave if you want it. "
-That may have worked back before the system was in place but let me ask you this? If you are walking through Andunor on your drow/orog/gnoll what have you and a halfling or elf is hanging out in the Hub what would your first reaction be? And said halfling or elf claims "Oh, slave, belonging to X" a few things can happen. You've never heard of X, assume they are telling the truth, look a brand new spy in the UD with no penilties to hanging out down there. Or you've not heard of X so you kill the poor character who might actually be a slave but has zero way to prove it. The player of the slave would be pvped all day long without that mechanic showing that they are in fact someones property and belongs there.

"Make the collar have some feature to let the OWNER have some semblance of control over the slave."
-I would be perfectly fine with the owner of my slave able to 'hold person' or 'daze' or zap like the shock stick or those gloves do. I however would not want anyone other than the owner to be able to do this. Maybe, and its a strong maybe, any the owner has given faction rights to use the slave caller could also, but not just anyone. That could be completely taken advantage of. I also would be a bit upset if there was a button that would just flat out kill the slave. They do not have the feat devastating critical here because it is just too powerful to have instant death at the fingertips. Yes I know there are spells that kill but at least those have a saving throw that is reasonable.

Slavery is voluntary. Taking away a system that some people are enjoying just because you don't is unreasonable. If you do not like it or do not enjoy it then do not participate in it. As for the other side, I've not been on it, so it is hard for me to comment on the quests and what not. But tossing everyone into a situation that requires them to make up some random reason on the spot why what you did in rp to remove their collar didn't work because ooc they don't want it to. It worked on every other slave why not this one. Perhaps finding out ooc first what the slave wants before even trying would be a good plan?

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:15 pm**

Mythical wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:05 pm

All good points.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:28 pm**

dominantdrowess wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:53 pm
magistrasa wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:26 pm Text omitted;
Totally agree here with most of your points.

I make 500,000 gold in 5 hours of grinding level 15 monsters without owning a shop or a district. =/

If I gave ALL MY GOLD away to a slave owner ... and got clamped by them... my character's master could be offline to sleep 8 hours, and I could be free inside 5 hours without asking for a single gold coin from any other player, or selling any objects to PC's. Literally capable of this before I even got a keen weapon or any runes.

The 500,000 is just annoying and is too much of a temptation to an unfun mechanic.

-SNIP-

MORE control is what gives the slavery system it's teeth, substance, and quality control of the RP.

And you're also missing the most important option, a third option in your list:
- Talking / RPing with the slave owner and negotiating with them.

We're talking about something equivalent to a gease or curse here. An object that can kidnap a level 30 epic level character without their consent or a saving throw. Typically, the best way to deal with someone who has something you want: especially some kind of ephermal control or spiritual authority ... -is- to give them something in turn. The Devil's Bargain -- as DM's do so frequently with warlocks that want to break their pacts. Removing the 500,000 gold cost and making it like this lowers the bar to allow it to be something of RP value (a fixture for instance that is highly prized -- something without "I win" or troll value like 5 hours of solo grinding costs).

If you can't force a slave owner to release a slave ... then maybe you should consider the fact that there is some OOC pact/agreement between the slave, and slave owner, the likes of which is required for the slave to get into the slavery system in the first place. Maybe the slave owner is going to make it difficult for you, or put you on a fetch quest because the slave -doesn't- want the RP to end just because and how you want it to.

In instances where there has been abuse and bugs, DM's -have- removed slave clamps before. I know people who have had clamps removed, and I think the first step to making you understand this problem is that you need to stop treating roleplayed slaves like OOC victims and acknowledge them how I see them: Equal collaborators in their own roleplay who are EQUALLY responsible for the fact that their character is in slavery with a magical slave clamp. When this relationship between them /starts/ ... the slave owner is down 30,000 gold in ADDITION to having a target on their back.

To not see them as that is doing a disservice both to the slave and to the Underdark side player when many of them work very hard to accommodate both them AND their departed faction's needs -- which are often all-consuming, continuous, and exhausting to the player expected to be the content provider in this roleplay scenario by the people who are constantly confronting them in their own settlements even without DM permission to lead attacks in those settlements.

Ultimately, what's required is to make the slave owner's character not as much a victim of the system's mechanics and costs as the slave's character for purposes of maintaining it's gravity and RP narrative ... and for the system to allow for negotiation with the slave's owner: Which it currently does not. The owner cannot free the slave. They CANNOT give you what you want, and people are PvPing them, spying on them, tracking their movements generally out of spite to a pointless end the master has NO more influence over than the paladin:

"'cause I ain't payin' you 500,000 to get your friend out of hock. I'm already down 30k." - Actual IC quote

I'm also going to have to come out and support the idea of making it possible for slave owners to be able to release their own property for free if they should so choose. (Even though I can already think of how this would be abused by the cheesier elements of the surface segment of the Arelith community). It would allow indentured slavery to work without having to rely on a prisoner collar. Hell you could come out with an indentured slave collar where the only real difference is what is displayed on the collar itself.

But if I decide I'm willing to free my slave if their friends bring me a moonblade, or a specific fixture, or complete an RP task for me... I should be able to do it. I shouldn't need to flag down a DM, and myself, or the slave, should not need to shelve our characters for two weeks to reset the collar so I can hand them over.

The slave's player is ALWAYS in 100% control of the fact that their character is a slave. They ALWAYS can end it at any moment, easily. DMs have been known to grant freedom in cases of abuse or neglect. They've reset collars for people so they can get new owners too. If you don't want to deal with a DM, there is an automated method of resetting ownership as well. The slavery system is entirely, at its core, consent based.

There should never be a mechanic wherein I can decide to free a slave that I do not own without their explicit consent. Nor should exist a mechanic where I can free a slave without involving the owner at any point. There are DMs, and there are systems built into the slavery system as failsafes.

Slavery RP is an agreement between players that this is the course of RP and a path of their story they want to write together. People not involved in that agreement have no business trying to break it without their say so. This entire thread reeks of 'I must win' mentality.

Dominantdrowess said it best.

The people saying that the "slave system" needs to be "abolished" are taking this to an OOC level that isn't cool. It's an entirely non-mandatory system. We all agree that nobody should be OOCly forced into it, and that there ARE quirks to how the system is implemented does need to be fixed, but people are making demands that a system is removed that they are not required to participate in...

... and that SOME PEOPLE actually enjoy participating in.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:36 pm**

Durvayas, note I said I want the current system to be changed or abolished. I never said the whole thing should go in the trash, but I, like a significant number of people want to see changes to it. Even you have to admit its a woefully old system that needs updating. My entire point is its far too cheap to buy a slave, when it should be a far more significant investment. I reiterate again, 30,000 for a level 30 slave is nothing. I can make 30,000 on a single trip from the heights to the ice roads, doesn't that seem like an extremely low investment for a level 30 character as property? An increase in the required amount is to reflect how much the character is actually worth, the current rate of 1000/level isn't representative of that. Furthermore, an increase in price forces a potential buyer to choose carefully, rather than snatching up each and every slave they see without a master. A proposed increase in price doesn't stop people from buying slaves by any means, but buying a slave should be considered a significant investment. Buying a slave should be like buying a quarter. At some point, you should expect to lose it - whether because the slave player decided to be freed or rolls.

Posted: **Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:04 pm**

Miskol wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:36 pm Durvayas, note I said I want the current system to be changed or abolished. I never said the whole thing should go in the trash, but I, like a significant number of people want to see changes to it. Even you have to admit its a woefully old system that needs updating. My entire point is its far too cheap to buy a slave, when it should be a far more significant investment. I reiterate again, 30,000 for a level 30 slave is nothing. I can make 30,000 on a single trip from the heights to the ice roads, doesn't that seem like an extremely low investment for a level 30 character as property? An increase in the required amount is to reflect how much the character is actually worth, the current rate of 1000/level isn't representative of that. Furthermore, an increase in price forces a potential buyer to choose carefully, rather than snatching up each and every slave they see without a master. A proposed increase in price doesn't stop people from buying slaves by any means, but buying a slave should be considered a significant investment. Buying a slave should be like buying a quarter. At some point, you should expect to lose it - whether because the slave player decided to be freed or rolls.

I have admitted that it could use some changes, and I suggested a modest, I daresay, reasonable, doubling in price.

What you're not taking into account is that yes, while when lvl 30 player X is clamped, they cost 30k to register their first owner, but slaves NEVER sell for base price.

I clamped Myeko for 15000gp a year ago. I was offered 40k for her when she was lvl 18.

I just bought Fadri for 30k less than a month ago(previous owner rolled a while ago, so I had to buy her from the slavemaster of andunor). A year ago, the asking price to buy the same character was a million gold, and it would have been a worthy investment.

If I went to buy Dartly Q Dartington, I wouldn't be able to buy him for less than a half million, and thats being conservative.

And the list goes on. The trend is thus. Cheap initial clamping, then supply/demand economics kicks in. A good slave is going to be expensive. Period.
When you see newly clamped 30s selling for 35k, thats because they're new, they're untested, they're a risky investment, their paladin buddies might show up at any minute.
The initial sale might be to get them off their capturer's hands for a quick profit. If they don't escape immediately, if they don't resist to much, if they are 'broken' and accept their lot in life or at least cooperate enough to be useful (Ellie Howlsong was a great example), their price skyrockets to the big investment you want it to be.

Buying a slave from the clamper is cheap, but it should be. There is a lot of uncertainty and risk for the owner of a freshly clamped slave. Some people get clamped at lvl 5, play for a week and decide "Nah, this is okay, but its not for me" all the time.
Properly doing slave RP takes some resiliance. You have to be okay with your character getting bullied and abused, you have to be okay with rolling with the punches. Your character might get caught up in a house war, their owner might die, they might get mugged regularly. Its not for everyone, and its good that that initial investment for a fresh PC is so low, it means that the risk is not too high for the BUYER, who ultimately is the recipient of 90% of the problems caused simply by owning a slave in the first place.

The initial price should be cheap to incentivize people getting involved in the system in the first place and taking those first big risks. The slave is not the only one that needs to dip their toe in the water of the slavery system before deciding if they want to jump in.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:58 am**

Little Weasel Update:

As of next reset:
- Various bug fixes across the board (thanks to all contributors, as they have spent an insane amount of time laboring over bugs over the last weeks!)
- Updated the conversation for the 3 Slave Clampers in the module to make the difference between collars clearer.
- Note: There is still a bug with the clampers swapping Prison Collars to Slave Collars upon repeated conversation with them. It's still on the "to find and fix list". IF that happens to you, contact a DM, who will swap them back for you.
- And as always, if you find any troubles, please let me (or the bug forum) know, and we'll look at it.

So we're makin' progress!

Arelith

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