Arelith

I have absolutely no experience with custom content for NWN. Could some of the people saying that there are high quality, non-clipping, race-and-phenotype-supporting clothes options post links to some of them?

Imperatrix wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:38 pm I'm in the same confused boat as Peppermint. There is a lot of incredibly high quality content available in the NWN modding community. Sure, a large amount of it is trash but a significant portion is still absolutely great, and the idea that you're going to custom make all your cosmetic clothing additions is absolutely baffling.

There's a misunderstanding here. We do not wish to make our own content, but we do need to fix up models before we can use them, especially if they cause performance or crashing issues. Unlike facelifts, or creatures, which we can easily pull out, or simply change a texture that isn't to our tastes, clothes are quickly distributed, and once in the module notoriously difficult to get out.

Symphony was previously working on this (which should show the kind of thing we're aiming for)

https://twitter.com/NWNSymphony/status/ ... 03424?s=20

But that project stalled due to exactly the issues that make clothing so hard to realise effectively. There are hundreds of parts to deal with. Almost all the custom clothing in HAKs is pulled from other games, and has not been applied to different races/sizes properly. We must fix that before it goes in, because, as I said, once it is in, its too hard to get out again.

An item of clothing that causes infrequent crashes or performance issues is not much of an issue on a small server, but on Arelith, where 30 such items may be worn side by side, it truly is.

And in regard to the point that 'We already have broken stuff and missing phenotypes' that is absolutely no reason to add hundreds more. Part of the reason we're introducing HAKS so gradually is so issues can reported, and dealt with, case by case. The latest update is no exception, so please keep reports of bugs/texture issues coming.

We could have put thousands of HAKs into Arelith at one go, including dozens of new outfits, for sure, but things would have broken, and we would be far less able not only to fix the issues, but even diagnose them among so many variables.
Of course we know how to pull things out of HAKS, and if you have a piece of clothing taken from Q, CEP, or anywhere else please post a link to it on the suggestion forum and I'm sure those of us able to review such things properly will find time to give a more reasoned answer.

I want customisation more than anyone. I spend a lot of time asking players what they want, and know this is, for many, the most important aspect, but I won't put quality control to one side because of it.

I didn't want to reveal this yet, because it can breed expectaction, and thus diminish the impact of such a change, but we are currently in the process of adding about 60 new heads. Every single one of these is being massively optimised, and the results thus far are astonishing. We won't roll these out until every single one of the new heads, AND all of the existing ones have been through the same process. Anyone familar with Blender should know that doing this properly is no small deal, and if we succeed in making an entire set of heads where this is truly achieved, we'd have done a great deal to improve customisation.

And quality heads on the vault? Sure, if you want to literally be Annakin Sywalker, Rob Stark or Aragorn, for sure quality options exist, but I don't want to play on a server where we've simply cannibalised dozens of other games to achieve our aims, and personally i find many servers look odd because of just how often this has happened.

I have to leave in a moment here, so I must be brief.

Head to neverwintervault.org.

The large compilations are the Community Expansion Pack and Project Q (on the leftmost side). Extract the haks into the hak folder in your nwn directory. You can then view the contents by opening a new module, going to module properties, adding the haks through the custom content tab, saving, and reloading the module.

Note that these are compilations and there's also a lot of garbage here. But feel free to explore with different genders and phenotypes. You'll find a lot of it works very well across the board.

Beyond that, you could even check out Sinfar's haks (google the site), though bear in mind they're designed for an erotically-focused persistent world, so a lot of it is also nude content. You can also search the projects tab on NeverwinterVault for more than just the pre-compiled material; there are some hidden gems.

ETA:

To briefly address some misconceptions here.

1. Arelith is not the only large server to ever have existed. Amia, City of Arabel, Anphillia, Nordock, and Sinfar all come to mind, with many of these having boasted similar numbers in the past. There are also probably plenty of others that I've long forgotten now.

Many of these have used hak content, Sinfar in particular being notorious for this. Regardless, the idea that making content from scratch is much easier than reviewing previously tested content is kind of weird anyway, so it's a moot point.

2. It is not difficult to remove clothes that have been added to the server if the need arrives. Clothes are all alterable via script. It is trivial to remove clothes options via script.

3. The Anakins, Aragorns, and so on do not comprise all the head models ever made. Saying so greatly discredits the NwN community that has thrived for nearly 20 years. Frankly, I'm staggered that anyone so central to NwN's community would be so dismissive of the quality work put out by others.

But really, I recommend checking out Sinfar here. There are hundreds upon hundreds of head models on display there. Many of them are pure gems.

Irongron wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm I don't want to play on a server where we've simply cannibalised dozens of other games to achieve our aims

Just to take this in a bit of a different direction, it might not be unreasonable to look at some of the assets from the Witcher games (and NWN haks that already use some of them). IIRC, CDPR long ago gave permission for modders to export the assets and use them in mods for other games, and there are a huge, huge number of heads, clothes, weapons, etc., that could theoretically be cannibalized for NWN that aren't recognizable. A Geralt head might be something people would be distracted by so we wouldn't want, for example, but a Olgeird von Everec or Shani head could be a great addition. The same is true of the armor. Geralt's signature armor might be too obvious, but some of the more standard stuff could be very cool.

Vrass wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:46 pm How exactly do the trees cause issue?... im not having any problems with them at all, FPS is still high and running smoothly. I like the trees far better then the new indoor ceilings, had to turn on the hide ceiling option to get rid of them as they were blocking my view.

The trees swoop over the trails and block the view (see Bramble Woods), and now there are higher up branches that obstruct the view as well unless you zoom in to clip them (a problem during combat). For me, FPS has now dropped to a stutter in Cordor with weather effects.

However, I've turned my graphic options from "High" all the way down to "Fast". Don't know how much more tweaking I'll do to individual settings as it was the last thing I did before logging out, but it seemed to improve FPS in Cordor, and brighten and clean up the business of the scene in general. I'll need to toggle some settings to see exactly why this is, but the change was for the better and I can live without the extra effects.

Memelord wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:56 am

Crow's Nest dock gangplanks are simultaneously attempting to be the same color as the boat, and as the docks. It looks like they have two different textures applied simultaneously and they're fighting to see which texture will reign supreme.

This is fixed. Live next hak update

please god fix the Lemure model.

Not only does it look terrible, it's literally not a lemure

This is currently the lemure model



Looks pretty bad in its own right - But, wait.


This is the monster the model is attempting to emulate.

This is a Dretch. Not only is it not the same creature - It is a demon, not a devil.

A lemure looks like this


Though it looks pretty silly, the only model I could find that is actually a Lemure [with a very quick search] was this thing
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ure/lemure




Please do at least -something- about this. Lemure do not look anything like that, they're blob creatures that crawl across the floor, and they are definitely not Dretches

Oh. Yikes.

I browsed a couple minutes and found this one:



I'm not sure where the original package is, but it's included in the CEP and Project Q.

This is, of course, not a lemure. It's a mane. Script an ooze effect to follow it, however, and it might suffice as a convincing substitute. For bonus points, tweak the texture to have a pinkish hue. Should be trivial to do.

It wouldn't surprise me were there even better options, as again, I didn't delve extensively. But there are certainly better alternatives to the model that was used.

Peppermint wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:52 am Oh. Yikes.

I browsed a couple minutes and found this one:



I'm not sure where the original package is, but it's included in the CEP and Project Q.

This is, of course, not a lemure. It's a mane. Script an ooze effect to follow it, however, and it might suffice as a convincing substitute. For bonus points, tweak the texture to have a pinkish hue. Should be trivial to do.

It wouldn't surprise me were there even better options, as again, I didn't delve extensively. But there are certainly better alternatives to the model that was used.

We are using these for Mane at the moment, so won't use them for Lemure also.

TheSandiestcomet wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:27 am A lemure looks like this


Though it looks pretty silly, the only model I could find that is actually a Lemure [with a very quick search] was this thing
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ure/lemure




Please do at least -something- about this. Lemure do not look anything like that, they're blob creatures that crawl across the floor, and they are definitely not Dretches

Thanks. We won't use that model as is, but might be able to improve it.

Can we improve the face while we're at it? The one in both the model and the art looks like evil Wallace and I'd keep expecting a clay dog to pop up behind him.

Don't be preposterous. Just look at this madlad!



This is a face of pure, unbridled joy! Just look as he leans back, contentedly rubbing his belly after a good meal. Behold the delighted smile on his face as he opens his mouth as if to say, "What a wonderful day!" He's so happy!

God. It's perfect. Do you really want to strip that poor lemure of all of his personality and all of his cheer? I say keep it.

Wow, that thing is unnerving.

Spyre wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:47 pm So, yes. There is a high standard to what we put in. We do not need clipping outfits, hats going through heads, lack of phenotypes and so forth. And, it has to thematically fit the vision that Irongron has for the server.

Not to be pedantic, but there's already clipping outfits in the game, the hoods and masks already go through masks. Phenotypes and racial parts are not all that difficult to create using existing resources; they are typically missing due to a lack of procedural knowledge/tools/straight up laziness. I'll see if I can't hunt the online tutorials & tools I used back in the day when I had time for this.

Irongron has a very solid point about things that cause crashes and errors that are barely noticeable on small servers being magnified on a server Arelith's size. However I'd really like to know what procedures you were using to detect these crashes if you weren't testing them on Arelith proper, for academic curiosity.

Peppermint wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:50 pm Don't be preposterous. Just look at this madlad!

This is a face of pure, unbridled joy! Just look as he leans back, contentedly rubbing his belly after a good meal. Behold the delighted smile on his face as he opens his mouth as if to say, "What a wonderful day!" He's so happy!

God. It's perfect. Do you really want to strip that poor lemure of all of his personality and all of his cheer? I say keep it.

I think it'd look better with a more detailed texture & a bit of a modified face. It's definitely workable

A couple years back when Irongron first announced that HAK's would be coming to Arelith, a lot of people, myself included were worried because the vast majority of NWN HAK content is utter garbage. But Irongron promised that HAK's would be introduced slowly, with a lot of curating to make sure only the good bits get added. Now, two years later we're treated to such lovely sights as this in the barrows tileset (on the walls):


Frogs that look like stones animated:


Ground tiles that loop porly, creating visible cut-lines


A merchantile with four different types of drab washed-out dark wood that don't mesh together


And combination brick/whitewashed dirty interior merchantile walls that look at home in a 1960's concrete apartment.


These are the worst things I've observed within a 5 minute walk of Cordor. There's a lot of other textures that are problematic, such as desert caves that now sprout algae and mold making them look like coastal caves, to cave rooftops breaking pathing and sending you into the ceiling to owlbears missing their own animations and with overall shoddy, clipping textures:


I'm not pointing out all of this to be mean or to disparage the work people have put into HAK's. But it is very different from what we were promised when HAK's were first announced. A lot of these textures, animations and even some of the creatures could do with a second and third look to ensure that they actually meet the quality standard Arelith wanted to set for itself. These are all the specific examples I have screenshots of at the moment, but I'll be glad to provide more as I go to help identify content that looks out of place on Arelith.

That said, I'm currently of the opinion that it would be smartest to reverse recent changes, get some volunteers to look over all the models and textures, and then reimplement those that pass the inspection.

Ehh, I like the mercantile and the interior walls

Nitro wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:37 pm A couple years back when Irongron first announced that HAK's would be coming to Arelith, a lot of people, myself included were worried because the vast majority of NWN HAK content is utter garbage. But Irongron promised that HAK's would be introduced slowly, with a lot of curating to make sure only the good bits get added. Now, two years later we're treated to such lovely sights as this in the barrows tileset (on the walls):

Granted this is awful, but we didn't actually do anything to the barrows tileset. Can you tell me where you saw this?

(and I do agree about the owlbears and toads also, though latter is very small) neither being added to spawn sets as of yet, but are cropping up in isolated DM events)

It's in the Darrowdeep Barrow.

Double post because night-time just hit and the lack of proper looping on the new ground tiles used in Cordor is a lot more noticeable during nighttime:

The boat under construction at the Crows Nest Drydock doesn't quite 'work' with the extant layout of the placeables to give the outline.



I'm also not a fan overall of many of the stone and wood textures being made "realistic" by being made darker and grimier. Many just look mouldy.

Nitro wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:00 pm It's in the Darrowdeep Barrow.

I tracked this down, it is unrelated to the facelift. That section of wall has a 'stoneskin VFX' added to it, and that texture is unchanged.

I agree it's not good though, but it must have been that way for years.

In the Cultural District, near the Fool's Clover:

We have some clipping issues with the new grass and existing placed items (a mat in this case).

Some tile repeat lines in the Nomad.


Outside the Radiant Heart.


A lot of the cave areas look very brown. And more specifically, the RH cave looks like it's been caked in dirt and it clashes with the checkerboard tileset in the meeting area.

Messageboards have very obvious repeating textures.

There's a lot more that comes to mind, but the only terms I've really heard to describe them were "smeared in poop" and it's hard to put that in a constructive way.

In short, there's a lot of problems regarding repeating tile texture seams, pairing textures in a way that looks nice in a given area, and a lot of the textures simply being too dark or brown-centric.

I was at the Radiant Heart and didn't notice that at all, though this is a tile lighting issue based upon how this was area was made, and not a facelift texture issue.

Also Nomad floor - that tileset was not changed by the facelift it is an original nwn issue.

To better illustrate what I mean about the dichotomy between the new textures and the old with regards to the stone:



The old stone-grey was brighter but neutral enough that it could blend in anywhere, whereas this makes it look super out of place and too dark in many areas. In bright areas, it's a sore thumb, in dark areas, it's a void I bump into because I can't see it.


EDIT: Also after walking into an area with a few couches dotted around, they are highly unpleasant to look at and stick out when contrasted with the existing graphic design of NWN around it.

I don't have anything as deeply constructive as different screenshots and stuff to share, but in general, the more time I'm spending with these new tileset changes, the more I find myself saying, "Oh, this is interesting, but I liked it better before". While there are definitely some changes that I like, I'm of the same opinion as others in this thread in the view that by and large, I consider the new textures to be a net negative on my experience.

I very much appreciate all the work that went into picking and choosing these textures, and as a software developer myself, I understand the extreme frustration that comes with putting a lot of time and effort into something only for people to dislike it and want it rolled back. But overall, I think Arelith looked significantly better with the default textures. What I'd really like to see isn't for the textures to be changed completely, like they were with this update, but instead to just be higher resolution versions of the default textures.