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Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:58 am
by Irongron
Thanks Huschpfusch, that was some really great constructive feedback, and I find myself agreeing with pretty much every point.
It reminded me that many years ago I favoured a universal starting point on the ship sailing to Arelith, complete with mini dungeon. New players would therefore start together, and could choose where to alight on the mainland. Now HAKs gve offered us giant galleons, I guess that's a real option? (alongside the long term plan of making Skal an epic, connected hub)
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:34 pm
by Nevrus
I have an additional suggestion that should enable group play but cut down on the abuse of the system!
Implement a conversation for a Random Writ, only when you're in a party of two or more.
The agent will take the average level of the party and spit out a writ that's that level +0-3. If the party changes size, the writ automatically cancels. This writ would be unrestricted in level, but necessarily tough for the lower level.
The problem we had before is that low level players were competing in level-appropriate content with high-level help, therefore being provided no challenge.
Putting them in over their head if they want high-level help adds much more risk to the scenario, and makes it a much more memorable encounter. Because it's randomized, you can't pick and choose the least risky, either.
This also becomes more reasonable with groups with a smaller level gap.
There could even be incentives for characters that have already completed the assigned writ, like bonus gold, to make sure that low-level characters don't get blocked out of advancement and adventure because of a bad RNG roll of who's online at any given time.
TL;DR: The problems of the old way the system worked are solvable if risk is introduced and control is reduced.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:35 pm
by Sea Shanties
Irongron wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:58 am
It reminded me that many years ago I favoured a universal starting point on the ship sailing to Arelith, complete with mini dungeon. New players would therefore start together, and could choose where to alight on the mainland. Now HAKs gve offered us giant galleons, I guess that's a real option? (alongside the long term plan of making Skal an epic, connected hub)
What if something like this was a regular event instead.. Like once a month there's a DM run thing exclusively for newly created characters and they could share an origin story and get to know each other a bit while doing so. One time it could be a ship wrecking on Skal, one time it's maybe an Amnish prison camp set up on Arelith everyone escapes from.. and so on.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:41 pm
by Huschpfusch
Sorry my brain is mush now due to real life...
@Nevrus
Wait what?

(slightly confused)
A) You mean to replace the entire writ system as it is now with a random lvl-based shuffle?
Or
B) You mean that shuffle writ conversation IN ADDITION to the existing writs system which is locked behind the 0+3lvl restriction?
@Irongron
Wait what? A dungeon on a ship?

(utterly confused)
You mean like the ship istelf would be the tutorial area?
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:57 pm
by Ebonstar
Sea Shanties wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:35 pm
Irongron wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:58 am
It reminded me...
... wrecking on Skal, one time
it's maybe an Amnish prison camp set up on Arelith everyone escapes from.. and so on.
wow Pit town flashback
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:28 pm
by Irongron
Huschpfusch wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:41 pm
@Irongron
Wait what? A dungeon on a ship?

(utterly confused)
You mean like the ship istelf would be the tutorial area?
Yes, something optional, similar to the island you suggested. Rats in the hold, occasional battles on deck, and everything you need to equip your character and level from 1-3. An extended tutorial area where one could find a party to go ashore with, and choose one's destination (Brog/Cordor)
There are some amazing properly to scale galleons available to us now.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:30 pm
by Ork
I actually love the idea that we can kind of mold beginner level experiences to conform to an almost sort of cohort. Pit town's coolest feature was that everyone awoke after being abducted by mindflayers - everything else was bleh, but I liked the unified origin.
Also, Sea Shanties gets +1 for that idea. Have it be an origin that rotates or changes, or is random.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:40 pm
by Irongron
Its definitely a pretty special idea, though given the area and dm work involved it would likely be something we could only manage a few times a year, similar to how POTM manages their 'Start a New Character Week'
Still, I'd definitely be supportive of the idea should a DM wish to give it a try.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:38 am
by malcolm_mountainslayer
I think tutorial would be great OPTION for newcomers, etc.
But id like to see writs with a looser level restriction. I found it hard to play with friends IG and RL due to everyone not having same amount of time to put in the game, or sometimes i have to take a break for months, etc.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:50 am
by TheRagingGoblin
Feedback for Irongron:
In my experience it's surprisingly common to have gameplay/adventure impeded by the difference in levels. Most commonly it's not due to xp loss because a higher level is present, but it's because being more than 3 levels above the limit on writs prevents progress being gained. People often work around this limitation with the higher level out of the party, while allowing those with the writs to land the kills.
Simply removing the block on progress from having higher levels in the party will allow the higher levels to group with the lowers and contribute. The only worry here is higher levels being used to help lower levels farm writs, but there's no problem here if the xp gained from combat appropriately accounts for the level of characters in party, which I believe it does.
If the combat xp gain is appropriate, the writs will be completed quicker but there'll be less xp for the lower level from the kills. Comparing this to solo or going with a more level appropriate group, it shouldn't offer more xp for the time spent.
The removal of this restriction will help my own main who aims to mentor and aid others. It's very odd she -doesn't- join them on their journeys when they have a writ. It will indeed help others in similar senses, where they wish to travel with their IC friends.
To the topic of 'removing writ level restrictions', I don't believe higher levels should be able to access lower level writs, and neither do I believe lower levels should have access to higher level writs. Consider the following circumstances:
- Higher levels take lower level on orcland writs
- A higher level constantly does lower level writs (lol, Goblin Slayer)
The first situation feels most open to abuse in an OOC sense. OOC friends with 30s takes their low level friend through writs meant for late teens. The 30s will still power through the content, but the lower level gains the higher reward for completing the more difficult writs. This is a higher, rapid gain for no to little risk. In an IC sense, the agents giving writs would be familiar with the adventurers they give tasks to. Why would they give a task to slay a lich, to someone green who was killing goblins just the day before? If the agents aren't familiar with people, they can also look to the gear of those they're hiring or perhaps they heard rumours of the person they're giving work to.
The latter would allow a higher level to pick up and power through lower level writs. They can already do this, but this adds incentive for them to solo lower level content. It'd lead to more overall traffic in these areas, with increased occurrences of 'We got a group together but a higher level just ran through here'.
Higher levels being able to do lower level writs also adds more incentive for higher levels to join lower levels, but I don't think this is required at all. Higher levels who wish to help lowers generally do it for IC reasons, they don't need extra cookies (xp+gold from writ completion) to do so.
My conclusion on the removal of level restrictions on writs is that it'd incentive OOC behaviour which we don't wish to be seen, but please remove the 'more than 3 levels' restriction preventing progress on writs when a higher level is present, as it does prevent some IC interactions. It is balanced as long as the combat xp gained is appropriate for the lessened challenge.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:13 am
by Cobblewobble
Hello, Irongron!
I didn't start playing until sometime last year, but since them I've racked up over hundreds of hours of playing on my primary character. My personal, anecdotal feedback is very similar to what TheRagingGoblin describes in their post. Players simply work around the mechanics already in the game. It's usually followed by a really silly situation like this:
Adventurer(s) run into a higher level character
Adventurers: Hello! Are you here doing writ work?
HLC: No. I'd help you but I don't think the writmaster will approve of it, let's see.
(The HLC is invited into the Adventurer party. Everyone waits to see if the 'can't complete writ message' pops up.)
If it pops up, the HLC will respond: Yeah, I don't think he will. I'll stay behind and help, but you need to get the killing blow.
If it doesn't pop, the HLC will respond: Hm, maybe not. Let's go on, then.
The above example is extremely, extremely unnatural. Arelith's most incredible quality in my experience as a newer player has just been how much freedom it feels like there is in the world. I think it would be harmful if systems are implemented to try and restrict or change the most natural ways people want to interact with each other.
When I made my first character, I had no trouble at all running into people doing writs with. I've had terrible experiences with that lately and have found myself only wanting to level up if I have the convenience of being able to do that with a friend, as my playtime seems to be one where many others aren't online to get to experience this with.
The most enjoyable part of my roleplay as a newer player was meeting everyone while we did writs and went on adventures together and as we hit the level cap, we started bringing each other into our various stories and the characters kept in contact despite not spending as much time together the way they originally met. Even almost a year later in real life, my character is still running into people he met while new to the Island.
It simply is not a fun or rewarding roleplay experience trying to find people to share these experiences with. The fun of roleplay is having the experience. If people are too high to come along even for the 'fun of it', the already limited player pool becomes even smaller. I have had to turn down hanging out with many characters on their adventures as I met them in the wilderness because I was too high level, which ultimately denied both of us the opportunity to get to know each others characters, as I become a literal burden for trying to hang out with them while they do their stuff.
There should be an easier way to find people who are interested in doing writs, like an opt-in or opt-out board near the writmaster that displays people who are looking for contract work. Thank you for reading!
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:45 pm
by Scylon
On a side note, I saw a comment about people only doing efficient dungeons.
A good way to fix that is with the loot tables. Make some current or even new drops only in certain dungeons etc.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:44 am
by n00bdragon
Scylon wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:45 pm
On a side note, I saw a comment about people only doing efficient dungeons.
A good way to fix that is with the loot tables. Make some current or even new drops only in certain dungeons etc.
Loot is a very complex thing to balance because not everyone who goes into a dungeon gets access to the loot. A party needs someone with access to open locks and disable traps to get at most loot. Furthermore, doing writs and even defeating monsters isn't necessary to getting loot. Many rogue-types stealth their way through dungeons and loot them without any danger to themselves. This isn't wrong, per se, but it is something that needs to be accounted for. Putting desirable things only in some dungeons does nothing to dissuade people who can't open them anyway and does everything to influence people who aren't even there to kill monsters, much less do writs.
HOT TAKE: What problem, exactly, is it if a level 20 takes his level 3 friends through the orc lands to level up at high speed? The gut reaction is almost universally "that's not realistic/fair" but consider the alternatives. If that level 20 wasn't schlepping his level 3 friends through the orc lands what would these respective people be doing? Certainly not interacting with each other. The same goes if he is there to flex on the bramble woods. Either way, absolutely no RP is being generated. The game appears to be saying, intentionally or not, "I would rather you grind than roleplay". Anyone committed to having his epic consistently train lowbies just for the sake of power is going to be spending his time and money doing that anyway, showering his friends with gear as they level up. Anyone committed to being trained to level 20 could solo grind that in a few days anyway. What is the current record for hitting level 16? Eight hours or something? If people can join each other on writs despite the level disparity at least there's a
chance they'll be roleplaying while they do it.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:52 am
by Scylon
Seems you will need to add level appropriate anti stealth creatures and also loot that isn't locked all the time.
I know that pain to be honest. I feel my Pixie is a requirement because 90% of the treasure I have come across is locked, trapped (infinitely) or both.
I would like to see loot (and maybe it is there, I have yet to see it) behind intelligence , wisdom, or just pure strength based mechanics.
Sorry Charisma characters, but unless you are seducing the trolls for the night I can't see that stat opening puzzles

Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:50 pm
by malcolm_mountainslayer
Scylon wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:52 am
Seems you will need to add level appropriate anti stealth creatures and also loot that isn't locked all the time.
I know that pain to be honest. I feel my Pixie is a requirement because 90% of the treasure I have come across is locked, trapped (infinitely) or both.
I would like to see loot (and maybe it is there, I have yet to see it) behind intelligence , wisdom, or just pure strength based mechanics.
Sorry Charisma characters, but unless you are seducing the trolls for the night I can't see that stat opening puzzles
Charisma is also force of personality not just good looks, its why umd is cha based; and i can totally see someone intuitively figuring out and int based thing similar to how sorcerors cast spells.
That being said there is already a certain extent multiple stats used.
Search (int) increase chance of more loot on every corpse and i think maybe chests? Ctoss classable and item boostable
Str carries more and bashes chests/resources faster. (And doesnt have to carry extra set of tools) str characters, unless some caster or stealth or monk character is almost always better than the dex version. Heck even rangers go str based.
Dex is related to disarm trap and picklock, both crossclassable and boostable via items.
Mages can also just missle spam a chest for reduced loot, but other familars end up being useless so everyone still goes pixie.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:46 pm
by Huschpfusch
Scylon wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:52 am
I know that pain to be honest. I feel my Pixie is a requirement because 90% of the treasure I have come across is locked, trapped (infinitely) or both.
I would like to see loot (and maybe it is there, I have yet to see it) behind intelligence , wisdom, or just pure strength based mechanics.
Sorry Charisma characters, but unless you are seducing the trolls for the night I can't see that stat opening puzzles
I'd like a way to get a few more chests open via int or wis too so no need to go pixie with mage all the time.
Concerning charisma -> there could be away to integrate that into chest opening also -> animated chests! Charismatic PCs could talk them into opening up! And if PC does not grab stuff fast enough - bam - slamshut - critical-hand-damage.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:05 pm
by Scylon
The mechanics don't need to be tied to a chest per say. The chests don't need o be locked at all if there is some other gimmick to get to said treasures.
The point I was driving at was if the writ system is relaxed and rewarded multi party setups it would help fix some of the issues.
So a dungeon could have a few different look options, so if you have a Wizard, Warrior, and rogue, you can "solve that puzzle", Move that rock and pick that lock, getting max loot. However if you solo it, you'll only be able to get one item of loot.
Also would still need to have particular items that only drop in certain places. This would reign in the issues of people only running the one dungeons if the items you wanted only drops in a certain place.
Re: Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:36 am
by Azarain
Hello,
I am an actual to honest new player. All this talk of making it harder for stealth characters to get loot, doesn’t affect me. I am not a stealth character. Which means writs which requires opening a lock leaves me out of treasure (and in two cases seems to prevent me from completing it). Likewise, if a writ requires me to be X class so I can climb over something means I cannot complete it.
As for writs, If I can solo it, I can gain XP. I could attempt to spend two or three hours hoping to get a group together, but I have a job, and other things I like to do out of game. That aside I like things being IC. So, if my character does not like someone due to personality conflict, their goals do not align, they are rivals they are not going to group up. It is not a comfort zone thing, but role play. Even my amicable character has issues however. Sometimes there is not anyone around and by that, I mean most of the time there is nobody his level around. To actually be able to go out with his IC friends who he shares a relationship with, has built goals, and has an RP narrative with would be great.
A good example is any patrol or drive back X threat. Let’s say I am Mayor Mark and I need someone to scout the area for Gary’s Gang. I don’t care how strong they are I just need the patrol done. Hopefully people are RPing during the patrol and talking about how Gary’s Gang has been causing trouble. Likewise, when Mayor Mark hires some people to take on Gary’s Gang making trouble and Vinny’s Vineyard neither Mark nor Vinny is going to care people stronger than Gary is coming along. They are happy the job is being done.
As far as getting more people around the best way to do that is for people to have fun. I personally do not care about leveling. I like RPing with the friends I have made on the game. I /would/ love to be more useful. While there has been a lot mentioned about some high levels power leveling some low level I haven’t hard one person think about the other side. Maybe low level people want to be useful to their higher level friends.