The new rod usability

[Peppermint]

All right, seems this image was doctored to rile people.

No Hellball rod has yet been found.

(That doesn't excuse the fact that there are Greater Ruin rods, or that this doctor was even believable, though.)

[Red Ropes]

All right, seems this image was doctored to rile people.

There are no Hellball wands that we know of.

(That doesn't excuse the fact that there are Greater Ruin rods, or that this doctor was even believable, though.)

and we have no way of knowing what rods are added

because FOIG

no one can even offer feedback on balance because everything is added to surprise, which means we can't go BWUUHH?

[Shadowy Reality]

Can the source of the image be traced? Are we sure there are Greater Ruin rods too?

I find it in extremely poor taste to create these images and pass them as real to create the sort of chaos and outrage we are seeing.

[monkeywithstick]

Can the source of the image be traced? Are we sure there are Greater Ruin rods too?

I find it in extremely poor taste to create these images and pass them as real to create the sort of chaos and outrage we are seeing.

I found it on discord and ponted it out to Peppermint. Certainly wasn't my image, I fell for this same as everyone else. I'm not gonna call out the person responsible because doing so on the public forum would be rude. But I will say I agree with this sentiment.

[Peppermint]

The Greater Ruin rods are real.

The source of the Hellball image has been traced. The offender has been banned from Arelith's discord and the head DM has been notified.

Poor taste indeed.

[Volograd]

Out of curiousity, has it been confirmed that ESF: Evocation will defend against the backlash of Greater Ruin?

EDIT: Rod of Greater Ruin, for clarification.

[strong yeet]

This goofy gruin rod is much better for an evoker wizard than a warrior. Now my wizard can gruin you twice instead of just once, but a fighter doesn't have much reason to use it except for a last-ditch execute at range.

I'm frankly quite shocked that this was the "answer" to now missing scrolls; details of these rods absolutely should be released in full as I have clamoured for very recently. The fact everyone believed an obviously doctored screenshot (hellball doesn't have 20 CL attached to it) so readily should speak to how outraged and bothered about all this that everyone is already.

[Irongron]

and we have no way of knowing what rods are added

because FOIG

no one can even offer feedback on balance because everything is added to surprise, which means we can't go BWUUHH?

Red Ropes, I am planning on replying to Adam Antium's post here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25700 later today, to (attempt) to clarify a number of things we are doing, including what part loot plays in addressing the PvP Imbalance this update has caused between high level and mundane characters (though as I'm sure you can imagine the last 72 hours have kept me more than busy, and with as much of a RL as everyone else, it can be hard to schedule an hour to write a very long forum post). I can at least explain your above point though, and a few things about the loot matrix (not an ideal name for it).

Currently, in regards to treasure containers (chests, weapon racks, armour lockers, junk, bookshelves, we draw from a pool of appromximately 3500 items (admittedly with many repititions). Several hundred of these I have made myself, and all of which I manage. This is much like PC inventory management over a thousand different characters at once, and can get very taxing.

Further to this, items are rotated in and our of these containers really quite frequently. Loot one week, is often not the same as loot the next. As some players can attest, I have made slip ups with this over the years, but will take that over announcing every single object in advance in the public sphere. Not only does this really detract from the enjoyment of playing and discovering these things, but it could easily become a full time job. I am certainly not keeping the details to myself in an attempt to troll the players.

However, in light of the recent update I have been advised by one of our newer developers that in such circumstances, it would be prudent to share more information on what has been added.

First with the rods. These, as I said in my post , are mixture of single use (commonly high end offensive spells, such as Bombardment) which while indeed 'junk' for the epic who likes to have everything, are nevertheless fun to use in the hands of low-mid levels who wish to use one on the fly, charged dispelling/anti-summon items (Dismissal, Banishment, Word of Faith), and Buffs (Undeath's Eternal Foe, Premonition, Ghostly Visage) I should also mention that given how spell items are created on NWN these are often cast at a far higher level than on a scroll, Disjunction, for example can be placed up to level 40.

Oh, and Epic Spells? That image on this thread was clearly false, as Epic Spell wands have a different text. However ALL epic spells have been added to Rods on our custom palette. These might appear in DM quests, or be placed down by a specific DM, or appear, very rarely, in the loot matrix from time to time (likely never for more than a week or so), though currently only 2 appear in loot, one of which (the less common) is the Rod of Ruin, current taking up just one of the 3500 slots I mentioned above. For those that are interested I'll post an image of what a Rod of Hellball looks like later (This one is NOT in the matrix).

The new items are not limited to rods, and one may have better luck looking in weapon containers if one is hoping to find something to disarm their local mage, chiefly these are bullets, bolts, arrows, darts or shuriken, a number of which had been in the weapon matrix for quite some time before this update. Launched or thrown dispelling or dismissal items can be very powerful, owing to their rate of fire, and while such high end objects will never be craftable, I don't think it would be too hard to stockpile a few in case of a problematic wizard.

Will some of them become to common if farmed (though DMs will still come down hard on loot-camping, and certain scripts are in place), or too overpowered? Almost certainly, as I said above i've made mistakes with loot a number of times before. Yet with consumables this is less of an issue, once removed from the game, or rotated out for a period of time (which commonly happens with loot items) they soon disappear.

There is also a more recently secondary loot system, that many of our players are likely not aware of, which is why i would really advise players NOT to waste their time trying to farm some of the high end objects. As many of you know, most containers throughout the module draw on the same master containers, thus the chance of finding any object is the same in any dungeon.

No longer. There are now a number of containers that may look like the regular ones at first glance, but are in fact location specific. These do not replenish or spawn objects in the same method as elsewhere. They will pick between 2-4 items from a pool of 500, and rotate them a few times every RL day. Looting, and waiting for it to respawn will have ZERO effect. This module building possibilities are naturally huge. So if you've ever wondered why a dungeon associated with a race known for their weapon forging might be spawning more weapon specific ingredients, this is why. Once example of such containers is the Trade Ships one can encounter on the ocean.


Anyway, I've another appointment to get to here, and while I don't expect this post to allay anyone's concerns, I would caution against judging a consumable found in game as a herald of the end-times of Arelith.

[the grim yeeter]

https://imgur.com/a/UVJVHUd

looks like grinding is back on the menu after all boys. time to silently rungrind for those mord's rods 24/7 (yes this image is real)

If anything, this part of the update absolutely encourages grinding. Essential spells are now locked behind an 80 lore paywall, and can only be obtained through RNG in chest loot.

and also, epic spell rods, LOL?

[strong yeet]

Oh, and Epic Spells? That image on this thread was clearly false, as Epic Spell wands have a different text. However ALL epic spells have been added to Rods on our custom palette. These might appear in DM quests, or be placed down by a specific DM, or appear in the loot matrix from time to time (likely never for more than a week or so), though currently only 2 appear in loot, one of which (the less common) is the Rod of Ruin, current taking up just one of the 3500 slots I mentioned above. For those that are interested I'll post an image of what a Rod of Hellball looks like later.

Does this mean there's an epic warding rod

[14All]

So this is why I'm always getting mithril dust at the goblinoid fortress. Nice...

[Peppermint]

What.

Irongron, let me give a word of advice here.

Lock this thread. Right now.

You've just posted the most insane drivel in order to justify what is, frankly, the worst update since the circle grind script. This thread will explode.

If you seriously intend to double down on this--if you genuinely think that most of your playerbase is out of touch, rather than yourself--then do yourself a favor and lock this thread.

This has already blown up in Arelith's discord. It won't be long before that happens here too.

Common sentiment seems to be that you are completely off your rocker, and the only way to stop it from getting out of hand is to clamp down on it hard, now.

[Cortex]

snip

You changed the whole system to remove UMD prevalence in favor of this, essentially changing nothing beyond people now instead of being able to get their magic stuff from shops andf PC mages, they have to grind dungeons hoping they get something. A change that punishes casual players and rewards grinders.

Even the people who were happy for mundanes no longer being able to "emulate mages" got tossed into the bin for this, because now they can even cast epic spells from rods. Rods that can be given by DMs, by DMs to their friends, because they're human and one or more will inevitably do stupid things.

Personally I hope two DMs from different factions start an arms race.

[14All]

snip

You changed the whole system to remove UMD prevalence in favor of this, essentially changing nothing beyond people now instead of being able to get their magic stuff from shops andf PC mages, they have to circlegrind dungeons hoping they get something. A change that punishes casual players and rewards grinders.

Even the people who were happy for mundanes no longer being able to "emulate mages" got tossed into the bin for this, because now they can even cast epic spells from rods. Rods that can be given by DMs, by DMs to their friends, because they're human and one or more will inevitably do stupid things.

Except he says you can't circle-grind it, so it comes down even more to the availability of players and their capability to run dungeons without dying (plus their ability to open/disarm chests or get lucky with a bash).

[Cortex]

It doesn't change much in my post, remove the circle from circle grinders, and you have people going all around the module at mach speed.

[Zahlfire_old]

snip

You changed the whole system to remove UMD prevalence in favor of this, essentially changing nothing beyond people now instead of being able to get their magic stuff from shops andf PC mages, they have to circlegrind dungeons hoping they get something. A change that punishes casual players and rewards grinders.

Even the people who were happy for mundanes no longer being able to "emulate mages" got tossed into the bin for this, because now they can even cast epic spells from rods. Rods that can be given by DMs, by DMs to their friends, because they're human and one or more will inevitably do stupid things.

Except he says you can't circle-grind it, so it comes down even more to the availability of players and their capability to run dungeons without dying (plus their ability to open/disarm chests or get lucky with a bash).

Any character can open chest and remove traps with a single point investment in both Open Lock and Disable Trap if they keep a proper gearset for it. Some characters may need three points but the point stands.

[Subutai]

The new items are not limited to rods, and one may have better luck looking in weapon containers if one is hoping to find something to disarm their local mage, chiefly these are bullets, bolts, arrows, darts or shuriken. Launched or thrown dispelling or dismissal items can be very powerful, owing to their rate of fire, and while such high end objects will never be craftable, I don't think it would be too hard to stockpile a few in case of a problematic wizard.

While this is certainly interesting, in some ways, it actually brings me more concerns on the direction of this update. If you meant that stacks of Disjunction arrows (or whatever) will specifically not be craftable, but that rods will be craftable, that seems relatively workable (I'm sure others better versed in balance can go into more details why or why not disjunction arrows are balanced or unbalanced). Or does this mean that neither arrows nor rods will be craftable?

With nothing being craftable, it would do nothing to allay the fact that, being required items for PvP, all keeping them restricted to the loot matrices will do is to encourage even more grinding, something that Arelith already has far too much of.

Additionally, it seems to assume that everyone have a ranged, or at least high-dex, person on-hand to handle any mages. Given the prevalence of 1v1 PvP, this most assuredly isn't true. While rangers, AA's, etc., might be able to dispell mages, any Str-based character will not, and will be in the exact same situation as right now, where if they haven't spent all day and night grinding for the right rods, they're up a creek without a paddle against any mage who has time to cast even one single spell.

I can't emphasize enough how much these rods need to be craftable. Mages need a counter. If the worst they have to worry about is that someone might, possibly, maybe have a rod, they're going to have free reign over almost everyone who won't have rods. And this on a class that's already one of the most common on on the server. For the sake of any semblance of balance at all, people need consistent, reliable access to Disjunction, Word of Faith, etc. It doesn't need to be free, or even cheap, but it needs to be something they can get without having to head off for 12 hours of grinding.

I also want to address the whole "FOIG" thing. It seems like Arelith tries to do this, occasionally, when it comes to stuff like rods, rune crafting, and probably quite a bit more in the past. The trouble is, this isn't really "IG" knowledge. It's OOC knowledge that you find IG. This means that the players who find the rods and know what rods are there, how many charges they have, etc., are going to have the advantage. Not as characters, but as players. All their characters will be created with the knowledge of what rods there are and where to get them. Their builds can be designed around that knowledge. Their Discord cliques, something you in particular have expressed serious distaste for several times, will be informed and have the same knowledge. Rather than simply providing the knowledge up front to all players equally, it ends up restricted to those players who grind the most and their buddies, unless they (like the awesome players in this thread have done so far) post them for everyone to see.

I realize that writing up a list of all the new items is a hassle, and probably isn't required all the time. But it's 23 rods. Someone designed the rods, so someone knows what all 23 are. Why not just ask them to spend 10 minutes writing up what all 23 rods are, and post it here? It's a far more equitable and transparent solution than telling everyone to grind to find.

[14All]

It doesn't change much in my post, remove the circle from circle grinders, and you have people going all around the module at mach speed.

If only there was a class that could safely solo every dungeon with permanent haste. It'd be even better if they had a personal pocket rogue capable of opening every lock and disabling every trap. Wait...

Any character can open chest and remove traps with a single point investment in both Open Lock and Disable Trap if they keep a proper gearset for it. Some characters may need three points but the point stands.

I know. It's yet more inventory management for the average (nonmagical) character, but you lose some, you win some.

[Orian_666]

snip

You changed the whole system to remove UMD prevalence in favor of this, essentially changing nothing beyond people now instead of being able to get their magic stuff from shops andf PC mages, they have to circlegrind dungeons hoping they get something. A change that punishes casual players and rewards grinders.

Even the people who were happy for mundanes no longer being able to "emulate mages" got tossed into the bin for this, because now they can even cast epic spells from rods. Rods that can be given by DMs, by DMs to their friends, because they're human and one or more will inevitably do stupid things.

Personally I hope two DMs from different factions start an arms race.

I gotta say i'm with Cortex (and others) on this one.
I was in favor of this update, hugely so in fact, I love that mundanes can no longer wizard as good as a wizard while also being a melee powerhouse, I welcome it... that and everything else in the update of course...

Even having high level spells on rods that drop, though i'm not hugely in favor of that I wasn't entirely against it either. But this, adding Epic Spells to Rods? That's just far too mental for me to be okay with....

Like Cortex said this punishes the casual player in favor of the grinder. Whether they grind the rods themselves or the money to simply buy them on a whim doesn't matter, they'll just straight up be stockpiling them for a rainy day.

So now instead of every mundane and their mother being able to cast 9th level spells just because they dipped 3 levels in rogue we're gonna have an atmosphere where a select few will not only have access to those high level spells from the rods they farmed and bought, but also the Epic Spells that casters spend their entire class on gaining just because it dropped for them or they bought it.
How is a WM that can shred a wizards buffs, entirely remove their summons, and now slap EMA and Epic Warding on themselves while also throwing down an EDK and nuking people with Hellball and GR a good idea?!?! in what world does that make any sense?

Are these epic spell rods limited to 1/day? Or can someone spam GR or Hellball, can you just summon a new EDK if your current one dies or gets dismissed? Epic Spells are extremely strong as they are, limited to 1/day, that's why it takes such high levels and high investment to get them. You need skillpoints, levels, and a feat just to get one and even that one can only be used 1/day...
Are these rods on that same limit? If not then the server is officially broke... this is the worst change since the circle grinding script, even worse (and yes, that includes the changes to UMD in this update, epic spell rods is worse, though I don't consider the UMD change to be all that bad so there's that...)

[Tarkus the dog]

This may be a dumb question but -- Since tailoring + jewelry runes are now more or less obsolete for most characters ( If you're curious about this, I can explain why and how ), what do you guys envision for late game content?

Like don't get me wrong, I haven't made up my mind yet what I think about the update in general just yet ( It's a mixture of I hate it and I love at the moment ), and I'm not going to argue Epic Spells on mundane wands but:

What do you want for your end game? Serious question here.

[Irongron]

Any character can open chest and remove traps with a single point investment in both Open Lock and Disable Trap if they keep a proper gearset for it. Some characters may need three points but the point stands.

They can, and many chest are open. In truth neither dispelling items, or dismissal items are anything new in loot. 'Gems of Nullifcation' have been in loot for years, as have certain dispelling ammunition. Of course players might grind in the hope of getting what they want, others might invest in lore to have more control over it, while others still will still use UMD, as a great many of these items are class or race-locked.

As for Epic rods, it's basically impossible to farm for them, and naturally DMs don't just hand such things out. There are a ton of VERY powerful items in the Arelith and NWN engine, many far, far more poweful than these rods, if it was true that our staff just handed stuff out to their 'chosen people' we'd have seen them being distributed for years.

But loot itself is not the 'answer' to high-end PVP imbalance, as I'm hoping to find time to talk about later, a lot of this drama is around the imbalance between those who previously could invest in UMD to counter other classes in PvP. Typically this happened only at high epic levels, when the skill dump would happen, before which they were every bit as helpless (indeed more so) than many are now. Of course this is far more complex than that, chiefly with how classes like bards are now limited in which scrolls are 'natural' to them.

Though as I said, I'll try to give more information later once I'm back at my computer.

[Peppermint]

Man. Working as a contributor, I remember occasions where a DM would hand out items to themselves and their friends. Of course the DMs received punishment for this, and we added logging to item creation to combat that.

Now we've added epic rods to the list of items DMs are allowed to hand out, but are expected to trust that the DMs will "use discretion about this".

Does this not seem inconsistent? I do wonder what measures are in place to prevent a retread of past scenarios, now that we've given the DMs a go ahead on this.

[Irongron]

Are these epic spell rods limited to 1/day? Or can someone spam GR or Hellball, can you just summon a new EDK if your current one dies or gets dismissed? Epic Spells are extremely strong as they are, limited to 1/day, that's why it takes such high levels and high investment to get them.

Single use means they destroy when used, and nobody yet has anything to my knowledge, besides one of Greater Ruin. When I say added them to the palette, that means they simply exist in the game engine. Base NWN is full of such OP items, many of which would entirely destroy Arelith balance if distributed, which they're not. If anyone is asking whether I trust a DM to use a single-use Hellball rod during an event? Yes, of course I do, but they're not, by any definition, being distrubted to players.

[14All]

On an official level, we've gone from "rods/loot are the answer to the problem" to "rods/loot are an uncommon solution" to "rods/loot are not the answer".

It feels as though this wasn't thought-out on a mechanical scale whatsoever, and that's something I'm not comfortable pointing out. Is the actual stance just getting lost in translation? Is it just me?

[Orian_666]

Are these epic spell rods limited to 1/day? Or can someone spam GR or Hellball, can you just summon a new EDK if your current one dies or gets dismissed? Epic Spells are extremely strong as they are, limited to 1/day, that's why it takes such high levels and high investment to get them.

Single use means they destroy when used, and nobody yet has anything to my knowledge, besides one of Greater Ruin. When I say added them to the palette, that means they simply exist in the game engine. Base NWN is full of such OP items, many of which would entirely destroy Arelith balance if distributed, which they're not. If anyone is asking whether I trust a DM to use a single-use Hellball rod during an event? Yes, of course I do, but they're not, by any definition, being distrubted to players.

I trust the DM team to not cheese this too, that's not an issue for me.

And granted you did state that only two are dropping at the moment while the rest are in the palette and can only be rewarded by DMs, but that doesn't alleviate the fact that in time individuals will have been able to stockpile these, whether that takes a month or a year is irrelevant, the fact is that this player when they feel they have enough of them can then roll into any place they want and throw Hellballs, GRs, and/or EDKs like they're free candy, and lets face it people will stockpile them entirely for that reason!!

Plus what if it's a wizard or a cleric or a druid that gets one, or even just two of them but can already cast that spell themselves.
They now have a chance for a very important encounter to use an ability among the strongest in the server, traditionally limited to once per rest for a very good reason, two or three times in that encounter... this greatly tips the balance in immeasurable ways and could even greatly impact how PvP and conflict RP will turnout simply based on a system of RNG or whoever was lucky enough to be present for the DM event "the other day". That is not a good idea!

Once more let me re-iterate, I love this update, pretty much everything about it and I know you guys are getting so much flak over it and I know that sucks, just know that there are a LOT of us that really do appreciate and love this update... this one thing though, I just can't get my head around it, I can't help but feel it was not properly thought out and is a terrible idea, i'm sorry but I can't.