Saves, Charismatics, and Spell Balance

[Biolab00]

I played a 27 Sorc/3 Paladin before. I role played them as if they were a straight 30 paladin pureclass build. If you see paladins going around helping drow catch slaves then making them fight in the pits or whatever, REPORT THEM! Most of us decent players know how to role play our class and alignment. DM's will take care of player characters who break their paladin oaths IC. As for balance, the only class that really gains a lot from a three level paladin dip without sacrificing anything is sorcerer, because they already have high charisma and a pixie familiar which means they don't need rogue levels. When I played my divine sorcerer the DM's released info about how many players were playing what race, what class, etc. I was the only divine sorcerer build on the entire server. They really aren't common enough to warrant this much complaining. Any other class that takes a paladin dip is sacrificing other ability scores and losing out on HP, AB, skills, etc. for a modest boost to saving throws that you could already get from gear or feats.

Uh, maybe it's not quite relevant but, i think you're doing fine, as in 27 Sorc / 3 Paladin and roleplay them as paladin.
Actually, i mean, even in IG, there are NPCs that are, such as, in the monk stronghold, is a monk but simply cast cleric spells or mage spells. I mean, they are still monks although it doesn't seems like they are throwing their fists as much. ( For example, viper temple's mobs )

Back to topic, i'm not going too much in-depth but just to give an outline of the counters -
For example, there are 3 players,

1st Player : WM/FTR/BARB,
2nd Player : Pal/CoT/Rog
3rd Player : Sorc/Pal
4th Player Rogue/SD/Fighter(or assasin or ranger)

I supposed this can be classify as -
1st Player is strong against 2nd Player but weak against 3nd Player [ The logic being, WM/FTR/BARB is a melee killing machine, their saves are generally low on Reflex / Will, It's rather unlikely that you can find someone having 30Reflex and 30Will for this build unless they "forsake" something ]
2nd Player is strong against 3rd Player but weak against 1st Player [ High saves simply makes them a better counter against Mages. But likewise, these advantages do not have any impact on Player 1. In term of melee prowess, i don't think anyone will disagree that 2nd Player will definitely be wrecked by Player 1 ]

I didn't specify 4th Player in any situation because Rogue/SD build that utilize Stealth and Sneak attack isn't your usual PVP situation. A real good player, knows when to retreat, comes back, retreat, comes back, because Stealth and Sneak attack is just that annoying and you can get pretty unlucky, if you didn't settle this player when you're perhaps, somewhere in Epic zone. Yep, they are this nasty. They may not be good if it's a fair fight, but battlefield is never fair, in fact, Player 4 is the most dangerous opponent because i've met one of these rare player ( i think i pissed him/her too much ). Uh yes, i was with a mage with Time Stop and True sight at that time, it doesn't really solve this problem since IG situation isn't like pen and paper. Well, that was a pretty old thing.

So, PVP isn't really just about build, actual skills do matter largely, depending what class you play. Perhaps not quite relevant but Somehow, i've the impulse to write this post.

[Anomandaris]

Back to topic, i'm not going too much in-depth but just to give an outline of the counters -
For example, there are 3 players,

1st Player : WM/FTR/BARB,
2nd Player : Pal/CoT/Rog
3rd Player : Sorc/Pal
4th Player Rogue/SD/Fighter(or assasin or ranger)

I supposed this can be classify as -
1st Player is strong against 2nd Player but weak against 3nd Player [ The logic being, WM/FTR/BARB is a melee killing machine, their saves are generally low on Reflex / Will, It's rather unlikely that you can find someone having 30Reflex and 30Will for this build unless they "forsake" something ]
2nd Player is strong against 3rd Player but weak against 1st Player [ High saves simply makes them a better counter against Mages. But likewise, these advantages do not have any impact on Player 1. In term of melee prowess, i don't think anyone will disagree that 2nd Player will definitely be wrecked by Player 1 ]

I didn't specify 4th Player in any situation because Rogue/SD build that utilize Stealth and Sneak attack isn't your usual PVP situation. A real good player, knows when to retreat, comes back, retreat, comes back, because Stealth and Sneak attack is just that annoying and you can get pretty unlucky, if you didn't settle this player when you're perhaps, somewhere in Epic zone. Yep, they are this nasty. They may not be good if it's a fair fight, but battlefield is never fair, in fact, Player 4 is the most dangerous opponent because i've met one of these rare player ( i think i pissed him/her too much ). Uh yes, i was with a mage with Time Stop and True sight at that time, it doesn't really solve this problem since IG situation isn't like pen and paper. Well, that was a pretty old thing.

So, PVP isn't really just about build, actual skills do matter largely, depending what class you play. Perhaps not quite relevant but Somehow, i've the impulse to write this post.

100% agree. Rock paper scissors. And then some things that look weaker on paper but can be very dangerous in the right hands. Or very weak 1v1 but deadly in 2v2+. We write a lot on this forum in terms of math, probability etc, which is certainly a meaningful approach, but what you said here which resonates is that this stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve seen a mage get interrupted by crits from an archer or a sneak coming out of stealth immediately on casting animation. How many PCs can reliably get a crit over 50-60 on the first round? A lot... it’s really too complex to analyze how this stuff plays out in reality because there are so many variables.

So yah I think you nailed it. Skill is a factor, tactics are a factor as is generally a bit of chaos. Who executes their attack plan perfectly 100% of the time? Maybe if it’s done properly it’s very dangerous but if a mistake is made that PC is vulnerable making a given build high risk/high reward. We can’t just look at 40 saves or 40 DCs and say “that is so powerful it’s a danger to balance..” it often plays out very differently in reality. Especially when we add in the social rp aspect. You going after a pc that is super scary? Bring friends, use politics, attack them socially to weaken their position. There’s always a way to balance the scales...

[AstralUniverse]

Two months later. I still think there's no problem. And that if there was one, it would only be in 2 rare cases of classes which make no mechanical sacrifice at all for these dips - sorc/div and healer/monk. Those are the only cases which I might consider considering problematic. Every other build makes sacrifices. The example with the pally/ftr/cot build is great. That build wouldnt need any more than 8 charisma if it were Rogue instead of paladin and it would get evasion and umd. These days, I'd take rogue over fighter and STILL have umd anyway, mostly just trading some damage for Evasion and umd. Sorcs and healers simply make no sacrifices as their primary ability is the one relevant for their dip and they get nothing important between lvls 28-30, AND they want a discipline dip anyway. They are the only classes that get this ac or saves boosts for literally free. I really dont want to see dips nerfed just for the sake of these two problematic (maybe) classes and I'd hope that things are either left untouched or we hit the nail right on these classes and nothing else.

I've read and re-read this in an attempt at working out whether the depth to which you failed to understand my post is intentional or not.

To start with, when I picked up the old school bryce build as an example, and it's modern counterpart, I was taking divine shield/divine might and cha-to-saves as the primary features which define the build

As a more direct reply to your sense-devoid word-farting... Let me explain:

If you replace fighter with rogue, you lose AB, 6 flat damage, base fort save, and feats (which are in this case used for save feats, toughness etc).

If you replace CoT with rogue, you are going back to the original build despite the newer one being demonstrably more powerful.

If you replace paladin with rogue, you're talking about an entirely different concept, which not only isn't even remotely relevent to the discussion, but also loses out on 10 to saves, damage and AC.

First of all. Let me clarify that I've played the old brycer to 30 and a kensai ftr/wm/cot to epics and have yet to try pally dip cot but I understood your post just fine and I respectfully disagree with it. You dont have to re-explain yourself all over as if I didnt understand, because I did. And I disagree.

I'm not going to explain my whole post all over again because I'm sure you can read too. And the explanation is really out there in the past pages of this thread and other threads in this matter. You can also check out Kalopsia's post for more in depth comparison between going div dip and not going div dip as a sorc or other classes. the tl:dr is that the differences are not that big and in a fine place because these dips happen to be classes with oaths/vows.

Just on top of my head, roughly, what I'd do here is start 3 rogue and take 4th at lvl 20. Basically... 6/4/20. Again, you may disagree, but you CAN get the dip and UMD, keeping all the relevancy of your build just fine and adding better skill selection and evasion. Its a good build dont get me wrong. Replace rogue for fighter, still very good build. Is it out of control? No I dont think so. Is it objectively better than builds without div dip such as barb-ftr-wm? Mathematically, not so much either, or at all. Its really just player-skill and tactics from there.

I respect you Joe. With the level of the forums these days I cant really blame you for not being sure if I even understood your post but I did, and I simply disagree.

[Aodh Lazuli]

You have once again avoided the thrust of my post, with what is probably a deliberate distraction. Let me explain it again.

Since making to so magic use is not gated behind four particular classes, and opening it up to EVERYTHING by attaching scroll use to lore, it is now possible for builds which are dramatically more powerful melee combatants to access spells like word of faith, without needing to put aside one of their three classes for UMD.

Because, instead of taking rogue, bard, assassin or specialist, they can take one feat (esf Lore), to retain most of the same magic-use as a UMD dip once provided. The only notable loss is mords (and this is a completely seperate balance issue, which I'm happy to discuss in a different thread).

This means a builder can take the three classes that maximise the actual combat potential of their build, causing a massive inflation of the relevant numbers (AC, saves, damage output, attacks per round) across the board, without losing access to magic - which was the penalty for using this build approach in the past.

Do you dispute that, and if so, how?

[AstralUniverse]

But this "problem" is not exclusive to divine and monk dips. All melee builds, regardless of style, became stronger by not being taxed by what is otherwise just a tumble dip in the current meta. It is true that you see more monk and divine dips, obviously, but it is not true that they are by default superior to melee builds without them. WM builds with no monk and divine dips benefit a lot from the lore changes too, in that regard, as they can take a "flavor" base class such as barbarian or mix in pdk. It seems pretty "open" to me.

[Aodh Lazuli]

But this "problem" is not exclusive to divine and monk dips. All melee builds, regardless of style, became stronger by not being taxed by what is otherwise just a tumble dip in the current meta.

Precisely. I mentioned there are a lot of other examples, and I was just lifting this one to illustrate my point.

You would be aware of this had you actually read my post.

It is true that you see more monk and divine dips, obviously, but it is not true that they are by default superior to melee builds without them. WM builds with no monk and divine dips benefit a lot from the lore changes too, in that regard, as they can take a "flavor" base class such as barbarian or mix in pdk. It seems pretty "open" to me.

No, it is not. Because we have lifted the threshold for what "good" numbers are in a build, without needing to make compromises for magic use, it means it is now far more easy to quantify what "the best" melee builds are.

The gap between a good build and a bad build has been widened. The distance between optimal and suboptimal has opened up, meaning those who are in possession of an optimal build are now further ahead of thsoe who are not.

This is not a broadening of options.

Do you comprehend?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

So let me get this straight. Your problem is that melee builds can waste an epic feat for the ability to use some scrolls? If you're taking ESF Lore then that means you're not taking ESF Disc, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Epic Fortitude, Epic Weapon Specialization, or some other very useful epic feat. It also means you dumped 33 skill points into Lore instead of something else like Hide or Spellcraft. And even with ESF Lore, it takes a good 50 Lore to use WoF scrolls. With 33 lore maxed, +2 from INT assuming that is likely what most melee builds will have, and another +10 from ESF Lore, that's still only 45. Gonna need to use up at least one gear slot for a +5 item or put +2 lore on several items. An epic feat, 33 skill points, and a gear slot is a big investment just to use a watered down weaker version of a spell that anyone with a certain helmet will have a 50% chance to resist.

[AstralUniverse]

But this "problem" is not exclusive to divine and monk dips. All melee builds, regardless of style, became stronger by not being taxed by what is otherwise just a tumble dip in the current meta.

Precisely. I mentioned there are a lot of other examples, and I was just lifting this one to illustrate my point.

You would be aware of this had you actually read my post.

It is true that you see more monk and divine dips, obviously, but it is not true that they are by default superior to melee builds without them. WM builds with no monk and divine dips benefit a lot from the lore changes too, in that regard, as they can take a "flavor" base class such as barbarian or mix in pdk. It seems pretty "open" to me.

No, it is not. Because we have lifted the threshold for what "good" numbers are in a build, without needing to make compromises for magic use, it means it is now far more easy to quantify what "the best" melee builds are.

The gap between a good build and a bad build has been widened. The distance between optimal and suboptimal has opened up, meaning those who are in possession of an optimal build are now further ahead of thsoe who are not.

This is not a broadening of options.

Do you comprehend?

Yes. I understood your point long ago, as I said. I disagree. I see no point arguing about this any further. I think the claim that the gap between a good build and a bad build is actually bigger than before is fundamentally false and I've explained why. At this point, I'm done bashing heads.

[Ork]

The tiers of investiture are: class > feat > skillpoints. Now that scrolls are gated behind Lore, it has made builds universally more available for div/monk dips as a feat investment isn't as taxing as a class investment. You can disagree, but I don't think the counter argument has a leg to stand on as proved by the continual rebalancing of classes/spells/items in the wake of the UMD change . . and the possible nerf of these dip classes. It all circles back.

[AstralUniverse]

The tiers of investiture are: class > feat > skillpoints. Now that scrolls are gated behind Lore, it has made builds universally more available for div/monk dips as a feat investment isn't as taxing as a class investment. You can disagree, but I don't think the counter argument has a leg to stand on as proved by the continual rebalancing of classes/spells/items in the wake of the UMD change . . and the possible nerf of these dip classes. It all circles back.

What continual rebalancing of classess spell items are because of the UMD change? Afaik, spellswords were just strong as hell. I played one before the nerfs to the negative imbue and I didnt drop below 50% hp all the way to epics. I can think of othe nerfs that happened which are not related at all.

The only thing that comes to mind is that summons now have 5 lower SR to make to use you can do what you with mord+wof, now with g.breach + wof. I really dont see any chain of updates and tweaks BECAUSE of the umd/lore change. All I see is either changes unrelated, new classes added, or really small tweaks.

[Ork]

Wild mage nerf, spellsword nerf, inclusion of +5/10/15/20 throwing items with dismissal/banishment/mords, summon nerf, EDK nerf, damage shields move to top of breach list, addition of rods, creation of UMD high spell items, timestop nerf.

Not to mention the rumor mongering of nerfing div/monk classes. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

1. Experts share information freely to help people build optimized characters.

2. Some people ignore this information and make sub-optimal characters.

3. Those same people whine that their sub-optimal characters don't perform as well as the optimized characters.

4. Optimized characters get nerfed. Experts and people who listened to them roll their characters because they suck now.

5. Experts come up with new optimized builds and freely share them with others.

6. Repeat steps 2-5.

[Ork]

#1 really hasn't been happening. There's been a few posts with people asking for clarification of mechanics as opposed to "you're wrong", and that clarification rarely happens. Mechanics use to be concealed behind the curtain, and for a long time Arelith players were left bereft of any good mechanical understanding of NWN. The pendulum swung to where mechanic advice was given freely, and a lot of players benefited from this time of relative balance, and now the pendulum swings back.

I think and hope that there's an equilibrium here. I think there is room for people to gain mechanical understanding without the judgement of "unoptimal", but there is such a pervasive animosity to "min/max"ers and "powergamers" within the larger RP community that we'll never truly shake off those fallacies.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Pretty much every character I play gets hit with some drastic nerf that spills over into affecting RP and forcing me to say that my character is sick or got hit in the head or was cursed and now they can no longer do the awesome thing they used to do. I've noticed some of the stronger builds being kind of swept under the rug or kept hush hush lately. All I can say is I do not blame mechanically savvy players for no longer sharing information if it keeps biting them in the rear with nerfs and making them roll once powerful/useful characters they had become attached to.

[AstralUniverse]

Wild mage nerf, spellsword nerf, inclusion of +5/10/15/20 throwing items with dismissal/banishment/mords, summon nerf, EDK nerf, damage shields move to top of breach list, addition of rods, creation of UMD high spell items, timestop nerf.

Not to mention the rumor mongering of nerfing div/monk classes. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.

The EDK nerf happend before the lore change. Wild Mages and Spellswords were completely busted regardless of anything. The addition of rods and ammo with anti-mage stuff is probably something that we can consider a PART of the lore update (and it wasnt a smooth addition at first but you can expect a rough sailing from such a large update in general). The rest is tweaks. Timestop nerf happened only recently. Tl;dr, the lore update happened and we didnt stop evolving there, we just simply continued.

Why wouldnt you be surprised if div/monk dips were nerfed? because you think they should be or because of the purely player-base speculation that got nothing to do with anything anyone in the staff said on these forums? Personally, I would be surprised. But I've been surprised before.

Another thing? What is it with the talk about builders not 'sharing' knowledge anymore? FIrst of all, I think since the lore update we're all been shooting in the dark for quite some time before we figured out what's good. Second of all, the Arelith discord build-damp is full of up-to-date, awesome builds, from veteran builders with experience.

[Ork]

Should div/monk dips be nerfed? No. However, the investiture of classes to gain UBAB or Divine Might/Shield is universally too good to pass up. What you're left with is a lot of paladin/BG or monks or both. Because these are roleplay heavy classes, you've individuals who feel cheated that they invest 30 levels into monk, but aren't as good a "monk" as the one that dipped.

I won't address the rest, Astral. I'm not going to continue to point out how things changed after UMD, or how things will continue to change after UMD. To me, and a lot of other people — things changed significantly. Bear in mind that people with a mechanical understanding of NWN will never be disadvantaged due to these changes, but the gap in skill/power will widen as mechanics become opaque to the typical player.

[AstralUniverse]

Things have changed drastically for me too. Dont get me wrong. And there's no doubt we see plenty more div and monk dips, but that's at least partially because we dont see rogue and bard dips on EVERY character anymore. I think we also see a lot of many other things which are just as good as div/monk dips but dont come with the RP restrictions and can fit more alignments and stories so I dont think div/monk dips should be nerfed either.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Another thing? What is it with the talk about builders not 'sharing' knowledge anymore? FIrst of all, I think since the lore update we're all been shooting in the dark for quite some time before we figured out what's good. Second of all, the Arelith discord build-damp is full of up-to-date, awesome builds, from veteran builders with experience.

This is mostly anecdotal, hyperbolic, and just my opinion, but most of the builds shared openly in the discord and on the forums are just "good enough." They work well in a party but they aren't the builds being used to solo RDI or Titan's Ascent. Everyone tends to know what the most powerful builds on the server are because you see the characters beating Abazzur blind-folded with one hand tied behind their back, but finding an actual spreadsheet or notepad with their specifics tends to be a lot harder, because those builds are not so freely shared. Every now and then one of the stronger builds slips through the cracks and more people start playing it, then when some unwarded surface drow hanging out in Cordor gets bashed by someone using it he whines that it was too strong and it gets nerfed. One time I came up with a pretty good build and shared it, it was hit with a very specific nerf targeting just that build within a couple of days. So yeah, I won't blame builds-and-mechanics for closing up shop if the attitude towards optimized builds is going to be swing the nerf bat all day long.

[AstralUniverse]

Another thing? What is it with the talk about builders not 'sharing' knowledge anymore? FIrst of all, I think since the lore update we're all been shooting in the dark for quite some time before we figured out what's good. Second of all, the Arelith discord build-damp is full of up-to-date, awesome builds, from veteran builders with experience.

This is mostly anecdotal, hyperbolic, and just my opinion, but most of the builds shared openly in the discord and on the forums are just "good enough." They work well in a party but they aren't the builds being used to solo RDI or Titan's Ascent. Everyone tends to know what the most powerful builds on the server are because you see the characters beating Abazzur blind-folded with one hand tied behind their back, but finding an actual spreadsheet or notepad with their specifics tends to be a lot harder, because those builds are not so freely shared. Every now and then one of the stronger builds slips through the cracks and more people start playing it, then when some unwarded surface drow hanging out in Cordor gets bashed by someone using it he whines that it was too strong and it gets nerfed. One time I came up with a pretty good build and shared it, it was hit with a very specific nerf targeting just that build within a couple of days. So yeah, I won't blame builds-and-mechanics for closing up shop if the attitude towards optimized builds is going to be swing the nerf bat all day long.

There's also player-skill and knowledge of the server to take into account when you see someone solo an epic boss or destroy a group in pvp.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

There's also player-skill and knowledge of the server to take into account when you see someone solo an epic boss or destroy a group in pvp.

Of course, but my point still stands. You really have to do some digging and pester the right people to even find certain builds. These people know these builds are good and aren't posting them for a reason. And I don't blame them.

[Baron Saturday]

So yeah, I won't blame builds-and-mechanics for closing up shop if the attitude towards optimized builds is going to be swing the nerf bat all day long.

Personally, I suspect that the B&M forum has fallen into disuse more as a result of a frequently-voiced opinion that build advice in the forums is more likely to be flawed, and that new players should instead consult the discord experts.

This isn't necessarily wrong, but I do sometimes miss the wild debates that used to happen!

[AstralUniverse]

There's also player-skill and knowledge of the server to take into account when you see someone solo an epic boss or destroy a group in pvp.

Of course, but my point still stands. You really have to do some digging and pester the right people to even find certain builds. These people know these builds are good and aren't posting them for a reason. And I don't blame them.

No no. Listen. You dont need to pester the right people to find builds. They are publicly on discord. What you need to know better, perhaps, is how to play them to a level where you can solo epic bosses on some or even most of them. You can have a very good build in your hands but then use all the wrong strategies. You can play a spellsword with a perfect build but then pick the wrong forbidden school or even just use the wrong spells and the build doesnt matter anymore. I wont forget how Stellen Varg destroyed us in the arena 1v8 because he was a simple, straight to the point, wm, LOADED with the right items, using the right umd in the right time. Another player can hold the same character sheet to a far different outcome.

[dallion43]

Below is a long imho with no meaning to offend anyone, an if I did I am sorry in advance.
If you are easily offended please just skip the post and read the next one.


Dipping Cha means you need 3-3.5 stats on your gear.
Any combination of Cha/Dex/Con/Str. It doesn't leave space for Uni saves on gear.
Usually Cha dips give 7-10 saves from cha dip not counting Cha primary stat builds.
Uni saves on gear instead of 3rd stat give ~9uni.

So, if Cha builds are OP save wise? No. If adding CoT adds saves on top? Yes. To both cases above.
-----------
DC spells.
Current DC are in a good place. Will save became very relevant, there is some high lvl refl saves.
DC has to have a counter/hardsave. Why? Because the second even one spell passed you win most of the time.

So, If DC spells are given a substantial bonus above what it is now many number-people builds will immediately be shelved and overall variety will sharply decrease. In a week-2months many will follow with the current trend after encountering a DC based PC or reading forums/discord.
I wont even go to what will happen to less then fully optimized builds in this case.
Casters are looking for IWB? Don't casters have Scintillating Pattern?
-----------
Cha/div dips post lore.
Now bard/Rouge dip does not appear on ~~75% of the builds in my excel. After I rewrote most of the excel I was actually grateful to some extent due to increased build variety and the opportunity to play the numbers like I didn't for a long time.

The dip problem were divided to two even before the lore change.
1. The fact that *everyone* is a Cha/wiz dip(example).
This is easy. Why? I will tell you a secret. Everyone that RPs what he Builds and not via versa will mostly play a similar range of builds.
If you nerf one combo...guess what, all the above...will play the next combo.
Do they RP less because of it? Does it bother you OOC or IC how others pick to play their Arelith? Unless you are Irongorn please don't play RP *patrol* on forum resurrecting necro topics...common what are you a 30lvl necromancer? :p. If you meet people that aren't RP a Pal to your/*the greater how to* liking report them. Report. This isn't wrong or snitching. DMs can easily track child killing Pals using their super powers, namely DM tool, and quickly straiten them up. You don't want to bother them and just advocate a nerf to many, many players using those dips on forums instead? Great and logical, imho.
2. Does wiz/cha builds have much more output then most of the other builds?
Depends on what you call a build. The default recommended button*30?
If we compare it to other builds that are built to prevail It is a trade in that I can go into if anyone is interested.

I actually think that devs have been implementing a better solution to the post UMD life for some time now that actually works. It is simple...more classes and options = more variety = less of the same dips/combos.

P.C Making cha/wiz bonus scale by lvl will simply generally kill the dips and force people to re-level and re-gear trashing RL months if not years of investment into a PC. Killing all relevant dips as a variety factor.
Forcing to take 5 lvls? Certain combos will suffer and will have to be built from scratch. You think making the player to take 5 lvls and not 4 lvls of the dip will make him a better Pal/Monk RPer? Kinda sounds well...wrong no?
-----------
Forum vs discord.
I admit, I never been to the famous discord, but if you ask me no one will post what he currently plays or plans to play at some point in nether. Why? Why do you think one won't?
And I don't think getting the build that numbers people currently playing will help one without deep mechanical understanding of the build and the rest of the current mechanical variables like correct gear, one use items, timing, opponent type identification, experience and etc, etc, etc.
And since NwN, even on Arelith has relatively limited selection and vast Wiki/Forum/discord if one knows the variables above, he doesn't need to take the build from no one.

[Scurvy Cur]

I was actually gonna give this thread a bit of a miss, but I caught some comments I thought I'd weigh in on.

A good breakdown

Kalo has said a lot of what I want to say on the myth of "div dip = huge saves for free".

The only thing left to really discuss is how non-divs can be built for huge saves as well.

Thankfully, posters have already asked for this so I'm gonna quote them.

Ehh I dunno. If you’re a pure fighter, even with some effort, your will save will be a viable vector for attack. But wands, scrolls and pots give you immunities too requiring another step to breach.

This one's actually one of the easier builds to get to good saving throw status, on account of it can take all the feats it wants to shore them up.

1 Fighter 1 Strong Soul; Luck of Heroes; Snake Blood
2 Fighter 2 Expertise
3 Fighter 3 Iron Will
4 Fighter 4 Imp Exp
5 Fighter 5
6 Fighter 6 Lightning Reflexes; Weapon Focus
7 Fighter 7
8 Fighter 8 Weapon Spec
9 Fighter 9 Great Fortitude
10 Fighter 10 Imp Crit
11 Fighter 11
12 Fighter 12 SF: Lore; KD
13 Fighter 13
14 Fighter 14 Blindfight
15 Fighter 15 Imp Dweomercraft??
16 Fighter 16 IKD
17 Fighter 17
18 Fighter 18 SF: Spot Called Shot
19 Fighter 19
20 Fighter 20 Toughness
21 Fighter 21 Epic Will
22 Fighter 22 EWF
23 Fighter 23
24 Fighter 24 Epic Ref; EWS
25 Fighter 25
26 Fighter 26 Armor Skin
27 Rogue 1 Epic Prowess
28 Rogue 2
29 Rogue 3
30 Fighter 27 GSTR 1

Gear spread for it looks like:

Armor: Addy plate, shield, helmet; medium runes in each slot, +1 uni on each rune.
Boots: 1 str/1 uni/1 AC/2 discipline (don't even think this is a soft 5).
Belt: 1 str/1 con/1 reflex/2 disc/ 2 spellcraft or lore or whatever; Soft 5%, no rune
Gloves: 1 str/1 con/1 reflex/2 disc/ 2 spellcraft or lore or whatever; Soft 5%, no rune
Ring 1: 1 str/1 con/1 reflex/2 disc; idk if this is even a soft 5%, no rune.
Ring 2: 1 str/1 con/1 reflex/2 spellcraft; idk if this is even a soft 5%, no rune.
Cloak: Sergeant's cloak, runed for +1 uni (medium uther)
Neck: 2 con/ 2 disc/2 spellcraft, not even a soft 5%, runed for +1 strength (medium theurglass)

Saves are further shored up by:
- Using both PfG and PfE, for 2 fort/ 2 ref/ 4 will
- Acquiring a FOIG buff that increases wis to 12 and gives +2 will for a month at a time.
- You potion out dex to fill your AC bonus

Total saves: 37 fort/31 will/31 reflex before spellcraft, 42/36/36 after a +5 bonus from 16 ranks of crossclassed spellcraft, 2 int, and 4 items of +2 spellcraft gear.

If you're not comfortable with will or reflexes for any reason, you can potion them for +2 to both will and reflex (total saves for those not counting now at 37/33/33, 42/38/38 vs spells).

Further improvements available with masterwork runes can either replace str/con/ref/skills gear with str/con/skills/uni gear or can add points of wis or dex directly to existing gear to eke out another point or two of reflex and will. Most players will never go this far, but it's possible if you'd like to consider deep end game stuff.

For the curious, yes, you can mwork rune str/con/ref/skill/skill items, since specific saving throws are not counted towards the rune limit.
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Alright, now that that's out of the way, I imagine you'd all like a build that someone's actually going to play on the server. Barb/wm time.

1 Barb 1 W. Foc; Exp
2 Barb 2
3 Barb 3 Dodge
4 Barb 4
5 Barb 5
6 Barb 6 Mobi
7 Barb 7
8 Barb 8
9 Fighter 1 SA; Blindfight
10 Fighter 2 WWA
11 Fighter 3
12 Fighter 4 Weapon Spegg
13 WM 1 Imp Crit
14 WM 2
15 WM 3 Iron Wilhelm (no meme, I promise)
16 WM 4
17 WM 5
18 WM 6 Toughness/IE
19 Barb 9
20 Barb 10
21 WM 7 EWF
22 Barb 11
23 Barb 12
24 Barb 13 Prowess/Armor Skin, depends on if you care AC or not.
25 Barb 14
26 Barb 15
27 Barb 16 Terry Rage
28 Fighter 5
29 Fighter 6 EWSpec
30 Barb 17 Thundering Rage

Now, there are 2 ways to play this build:

1h + shield: you care about your AC and do the same sorts of things that the old 20/7/3 scim wm used to, only angrier i guess.

2h: you've decided AC is for people that expect to take longer than 2 flurries to win a fight, and that's just not you.

These will gear slightly differently, but the core of the gear set is the same:

Helmet: addy hat, (medium rune for +1 Uni)
Boots: Str/Uni/AC/Disc, soft 5%, no rune
Rings: Str/Con/Reflex/Discipline OR intimidate; Soft 5%, no rune.
Cloak: Sergeant's Cloak (Medium Uther for +1 Uni)
Gloves: str/con/reflex/disc/intimidate; Soft 5% no rune
Belt: str/con/reflex/disc/intimidate; Soft 5% no rune

Are you starting to see a pattern here? If so, good. Note that you gear reflex, not will. This is because PfA gives a +4 will bonus and only +2 to reflexes and you get +5 will whenever you're mad. Which is all the time. And happens as a free action.

What you do for armor and the necklace from here will depend on the build:

2H

If 2h, you're already throwing your AC in the trash. No longer hindered by the need to have decent AC, you're free to use this slot for something else. If only there were an item that let you take +4 to the weakest save you've got that fit in your armor slot.



Turns out there is. You can rune it with a medium chard, and your best option is probably strength, since the reflex portion of a unisave bonus will not stack with the +4 ref already on the item. You're a point shy of +7 str anyhow, it needs to go somewhere, and putting it here lets you put unisaves somewhere they will stack with your armor bonus.

That only leaves the neck slot to gear. Since we're done with strength, it makes life pretty easy here:

Neck: 2 con/2 spellcraft/2 disc or intimidate/rune for +1 unisave. 2 spellcraft is advised here since you want 1 +2 sc item, to bring 16 crossclassed spellcraft +2 int mod +2 from gear to 20.

I know a lot of people prefer to go for masterly elven chain on this build, but frankly 3 AC isn't going to magically undumpster your AC, and the increase in effective HP from 5% additional pierce and bludgeon DI is not worth leaving your reflexes irredeemably vulnerable for.

Assumptions about your play:
- You're stacking PfG/PfE again. It's cheap, long lasting, and takes like 5 lore.
- You're getting FOIG buff that increases wis to 12 and gives +2 will for a month at a time.
- You're sipping of the dex and the wis. Also cheap, also long lasting, and you get these from an NPC vendor.
- You're pressing your rage button when you fight.

Saves before spellcraft: 33 Fort/32 Reflex/31 Will. Saves w/spellcraft: 37 fort/36 reflex/35 will.

Some notes:

You can benefit pretty well from moving one point of reflex to unisave with masterwork runes. At this point, however, you hit the 20 point cap to +will from gear, spellcraft, and spells. At this point, you'll need to decide whether further masterwork runes are best used to increase your wisdom by up to 3 points to cap it out for +2 will, to increase your dexterity to shore up your reflexes, or to migrate more reflex saves to universal saves to shore up your fortitude. There's no wrong call here. I'd probably move for 2 more into uni to bring your fort to 40, and then 3 points into wis to push your will to 38, but that's personal preference. As always, mwork runes here are a luxury expansion, you do fine without them.

1H

Here, we care about AC, so we will use elfchain. We also get a shield, which makes our life a little easier. Chain comes with a rune, shield can be medium chard runed, both of them get +1 unisaves.

This leaves us short a point of strength, and brings us to the one legitimately frustrating item to make. Sorry gang. You may have to do for 1 slot what a fully-optimized div build does for several of them. I apologize.

Neck: 2 con/2 disc/2 sc/1 str hard 5% necklace, masterwork runed to have +1 Unisave.

Assumptions about your play:
- You're stacking PfG/PfE again. It's cheap, long lasting, and takes like 5 lore.
- You're getting FOIG buff that increases wis to 12 and gives +2 will for a month at a time.
- You're sipping of the dex and the wis. Also cheap, also long lasting, and you get these from an NPC vendor.
- You're pressing your rage button when you fight.

Saves before spellcraft: 35/30/33, saves w/spellcraft: 39/34/36*

* you only get to 36 here because your will save actually does cap out.

As you expand into masterwork runes, you might consider migrating one point of reflex to unisave to hit that 40 mark if you'd like. I'm not too thrilled about going further, though, because your will save is already capped out. Here, you might look at picking up some more dex on your gear to push up that 34 point reflex save. As always, mwork runes here are a luxury expansion, you do fine without them.

Lots of general comments about dips not being properly roleplayed, whatever that means.

How well a player plays any given class and whether they do is not going to be materially affected by the number of levels in a class that they've got. Most of you seem to intuitively understand this. I'd only add this:

I've never seen a badly roleplayed paladin get better by taking more paladin levels.

[Biolab00]

I've seen so much discussion on builds which mainly revolves around PVP so far.

I'll just summarize a few points to make people less confused -

Universal thing that you should do when you PVE / PVP [ Especially against the unknown ] -
Turn on Imp EXP and observes the combat log on their AB, then adjust accordingly. Your eyes need to be fast.

for PVE -
1) AC is vastly superior to AB. That's the only true logic here. Most monsters are either high on AB but low on AC or vice-versa [ Yes, in quasi-epic zone, AB of 35 is considered low ]. There are few monsters that are both high in AB and AC, but these are not common. If you are thinking of making a solo toon that can go epics, your AC needs to be very high since you can never out-DPS the bosses with their minions around. It takes tactic and strategy, to lure and split them apart. You often need to die a few times, if you are new, to get the hang of it.

for PVP -
1) I am not sure about others, but I strongly suggest that you should turn on IMP EXP when you engage your enemy to know their AB range so that you can adjust accordingly. I don't fight in a stand still manner, you should hit, run, hit, run. Make the necessary tactical adjustment. If you are facing spellcaster, make sure of the terrain and use it to your advantage, some of the people like to chase blindly which can easily cost them to lose, they can't cast when you hit the "blindspot", same goes for archer.
The so-called "Rage and charge" either you die or i die method, is the most foolhardy method to PVP. PVP is only exciting, when the situation gets dragged, especially when enemy knows you are nearby but can't do shit to you, and you can backstab them when they are fighting onwards. Things can get nasty here.
Well, i'm giving my 2 cents thought here, but while it's easy to write in the forum post, it's not that easy to execute IG. You need experience to get the hang of it.

Build-wise, There's definitely optimal build that is very strong in PVP but not good in PVE. There are some that are good in both, you need to understand IF you think RP your story is more important because you take classes into consideration OR being powerful, is important.
It's possible to be both, but i'm not sure on who and if, he's willing to share such excellent build to anyone.