new spells

[Polokko]

The in-game spell description. I'm too lazy to upload the image and post it here, though I could post it in the main discord.

[Zavandar]

so we've gone from almost no direct damage to being a shadowmage allowing you do MORE direct damage than an igms

[the grim yeeter]

Ah, smells like another one of those sketchy shadow (or at least, accidentally or not, misreported) updates.

By the way, not too long ago I heard dracoliches have been given back their fear aura without any public announcement whatsoever, as well? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Irongron]

so we've gone from almost no direct damage to being a shadowmage allowing you do MORE direct damage than an igms

I am told the final paragraph is a typo due to the description being taken from an outside source. Shadow mages get no bonus damage when using this spell.

[BHR55]

so we've gone from almost no direct damage to being a shadowmage allowing you do MORE direct damage than an igms

I am told the final paragraph is a typo due to the description being taken from an outside source. Shadow mages get no bonus damage when using this spell.

This is correct, the description is mistaken in conferring any additional bonus.

[Aren]

Something is broken.

[Apokriphos]

Greater shadow conjuration web has always had a boosted dc as far as I am aware. I believe it's connected to epic focus illusion. Similar to Feeblemind boosted dc for diviners.

Mass hold monster dc seems right. 9th level spell with what I assume is sun elf +4 int 1 great int and +2 from shadowmage in your test.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Shadow magic that imitates other schools is suppose to have a will save or only be partial real (less damage) and then the save of the actaul spell it is copying.

Allowing shadowmagic to do everything with no drawback is an issue.

I encourage keeping the increased dc benefits of. Shadowmages while modifying shadow spells to allow will to disbelief for half and then then another saving throw of the original spell. This should prevent illusion school from completely outshining evocation but still gives shadowmagic options against immunities.

[Mad Martigin]

Ah, smells like another one of those sketchy shadow (or at least, accidentally or not, misreported) updates.

By the way, not too long ago I heard dracoliches have been given back their fear aura without any public announcement whatsoever, as well? Correct me if I'm wrong.

They have not, came across a few the other day. No auras that I could see.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I would probably put forward that this, along with the new necromancy spells may indeed be a concerted effort to increase the amount of spells available to all schools, but seemingly released by school or by path.

Necromancy first

Illusion/shadow second

Maybe we will get new abjuration spells next?

Obviously this is conjecture. But its possible we havent seen the whole list of new spells potentially being added and they may be, being balanced based off of a list of new spells

[monkeywithstick]

Small thing.
The removal of darkness from shadow conj affects wand options.
Darkness wands are cast at level 3 the old shadow conj darkness was at level 7. It's a stark difference in action economy for mundanes who used them.

Maybe the level on regular darkness wands could stand to be upped a little?

[BHR55]

also does UV counter shadow plague blind? cause if it’s like inc cloud/world of faith which are two blinding spells that shadowmages cant use...

even if UV counters it i’d still find it funny that it exists.
...

edit. Not sure why this left the person I was trying to quote and not what I typed.

UV, granted by the spell or by See invisibility will allow you to see through the darkness. Incendiary cloud is technically a conjuration spell to begin with so in It could simply have been moved to the"correct" school. However that would have taken away a toy from both Evokers and True Flame sorcerers and likely disappointing no fewer people. Instead I opted to pull something with a different flavor deal in a different damage type that in PvE opens up options against different enemies with different resistances. The darkness effect also tends to work better against the PvE AI than blind and can be seen through(with wards) by the PC, though your summons without UV will likely be as blind as your enemies without it.

Darkbolt in testing has a tendency to hit closer to 1-3 out of 7 bolts against a target with improved invis(ignoring the +15 that should go away). While Dust of Appearance can negate improved invis it both costs an action to use(and would drop HIPS), there are likely better options if your opponent has concealment than trying to break it and cast darkbolt. Not to mention things as simple as Ghostly Visage(common), along with Ethereal Visage, Displacement(on an item), and Shadow Evade all offer concealment and would all see touch attacks missing. Might give two of those spells a slightly new lease on life.

Daze unlike stun can also be removed with a clarity potion, and the spell will be adjusted if in actual use it presents a problem that is abused.

Shadow mage will not see more than a DC 29/30 with a Darkbolt which isn't very difficult to beat, and many SM tend to use two weapons while trying to maintain their hide/MS which further lowers their ab when using touch attacks. Darkbolt does not improve their situation against undead opponents that SM has really only two spells against(Wall of Fire, and Undeath to Death). Where IGMS is again a better option, along with sunbust and other(canon) barred spells.

These new spells also compete with existing direct damage spells that shadow mages presently rely on. Those being avas mass, and horrid wilting, in some cases wall of fire(basically unchanged). On an average roll if saves are so great for shadow mages Horrid wilting remains a better option at 8th. Avas mass can in some cases be useful, if the target is not concealed.

Without meta magic the shades spells should remain less effective than the real versions would be(outside DC) and cast at a higher level. There should also already be a will save that is mind affecting which should offer a decrease in their damage vs real evocation or conjuration, Like what Malcomslayer said.

[Wuthering]

Small thing.
The removal of darkness from shadow conj affects wand options.
Darkness wands are cast at level 3 the old shadow conj darkness was at level 7. It's a stark difference in action economy for mundanes who used them.

Maybe the level on regular darkness wands could stand to be upped a little?

I don't know about anyone else but in my experience after rogues lost the ability to use high level summoning scrolls when leveling shadow conjuration wands became a mandatory tool in their arsenal. I agree about regular darkness wands... If they're all that's left, they ought to last more than 3 rounds.

[Kalopsia]

Small thing.
The removal of darkness from shadow conj affects wand options.
Darkness wands are cast at level 3 the old shadow conj darkness was at level 7. It's a stark difference in action economy for mundanes who used them.

Maybe the level on regular darkness wands could stand to be upped a little?

I'm also going to miss using Shadow Conj wands for the cheap CL7 Invisibility. Was pretty useful at times.
If Darkness wand CL gets increased, maybe the same could be done for regular Invisibility wands.

[DangerDolphin]

Shadow magic that imitates other schools is suppose to have a will save or only be partial real (less damage) and then the save of the actaul spell it is copying.

Allowing shadowmagic to do everything with no drawback is an issue.

I encourage keeping the increased dc benefits of. Shadowmages while modifying shadow spells to allow will to disbelief for half and then then another saving throw of the original spell. This should prevent illusion school from completely outshining evocation but still gives shadowmagic options against immunities.

I really like this idea. Great suggestion to improve things.

[BHR55]

Small thing.
The removal of darkness from shadow conj affects wand options.
Darkness wands are cast at level 3 the old shadow conj darkness was at level 7. It's a stark difference in action economy for mundanes who used them.

Maybe the level on regular darkness wands could stand to be upped a little?

I'm also going to miss using Shadow Conj wands for the cheap CL7 Invisibility. Was pretty useful at times.
If Darkness wand CL gets increased, maybe the same could be done for regular Invisibility wands.

I may have undervalued the use of these two spells by the stealthy vs the same in Shadow Conj. I will run it by the rest of team as it seems reasonable to me. Especially if the wand duration is 7 vs scrolls 2.

[Sockss]

Previously: SM loses direct damage to compensate for hugely better defense and increased DC.

Now: SM loses negligible damage, in return they gain hugely better defense and increased DC.

Was the objective to make SM stronger? Was it considered weak in the current meta?

Were the spells looked at in a vacuum of one players, inoptimal, SM experience?

Aside from this I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the murder box you can now create and be completely immune to if you're small. (Evards + evards variants.)

That's a huge, huge buff to small races.

Even here someone recognised in the distant past stacking persistent aoes was a problem. Let alone ones you can make yourself immune to naturally.

Arcane gnomes unite, your time is now.

[Hazard]

[the grim yeeter]

Aside from this I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the murder box you can now create and be completely immune to if you're small. (Evards + evards variants.)

That's a huge, huge buff to small races.

Even here someone recognised in the distant past stacking persistent aoes was a problem. Let alone ones you can make yourself immune to naturally.

Arcane gnomes unite, your time is now.

Yup. If we plan on keeping these new tentacle spells, I suggest we remove the immunity that small races have to them.

[Complex]

thank you for the answer. it is clear you gave it some thought but i can’t really agree with what was said. sockss has the right of it. more options were given to a class that was already strong, and they are all options that help their weaknesses. facing a group of shadowmages is now, officially, hellish, specially when they can be permahasted and hips every 12 second. a shadowmage player would have to be very bad to ever be caught out of position for action economy not to favor themself.

[Chosen Son]

I am pretty sure there is a ring or bracer or helm etc ig that gives spell focus evocation, and following a mindfog, the willsave of the defender will be docked on avarage 3 on a passed save, and 7 on a failed one. Making the effective dc of darkbolt 34-39 depending on variables.

[the grim yeeter]

And let's not forget that of all three saves, will is the one non-div melee builds really lack.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Shadow magic that imitates other schools is suppose to have a will save or only be partial real (less damage) and then the save of the actaul spell it is copying.

Allowing shadowmagic to do everything with no drawback is an issue.

I encourage keeping the increased dc benefits of. Shadowmages while modifying shadow spells to allow will to disbelief for half and then then another saving throw of the original spell. This should prevent illusion school from completely outshining evocation but still gives shadowmagic options against immunities.

I really like this idea. Great suggestion to improve things.

Well I hope we run with it, otherwise the spells and, or shadow mages will end up super nerfed like monks. Having the same damage as an evocation spell only will save (often the lower save and no evasion) on top of shadowmage cookies is just bonkers. My suggestion keeps closer to actual DnD, balances the schools spells a bit more and doesn't involve taking fun cookies away including new spells.

[Apokriphos]

In my 1.5 years on Arelith I have never seen an evocation mage use chain lightning in epic pvp. Similarly fireball. Their shadow versions wont be any different. Even infinite Ice Storm Warlock spam runs the very real risk of decimating your party. And the new shadow spells are occupying higher spellslots, taking the space of more important spells that have likelier impact in pvp, such as dispels, and other spells that dont rely on saves.

Speaking of saves, DC evocation spells, besides the 9th level Iceberg with its +3 dc and no use of spellcraft, aren't used in pvp usually because of the massive overproleration of saves in Arelith. In our pvp action economy, a mage might get off three spells at most before a melee is breathing down your throat, and wont waste them on something with a significant chance of failure. Almost every build places 1 all saves on each item they wear, and most take paladin or bg dips to push it even further. This is common knowledge to all posters here, and means most new spells will see niche use. I hardly think adding another save to these spells will do anyone favors. It will just drop them from niche use - to no use.

There are plenty of damage spells shadow mages already have access to; horrid wilting, flame arrow, avascular, evards, these new spells dont do them particular favors since they dont synergize with the one reliable damage spell every non SM uses, IGMS. It is well known that evocers in pvp use mostly no save spells due to this reason.

And Darkbolt, which in Pnp is a spell unique to Shadow Adepts, as is implemented here, is far better cast by a Meta Sorceror/Paladin Radiant Heart Ringbearer then a dastardly shadow mage. Shadow adepts, the class shadowmage derives from, can cast evocation already, just at a lower dc.

Darkbolt is a gamble, as every non weapon using warlock knows. Once the enhancement bonus on weapons no longer adds to touch attack, darkbolt will be even more of a gamble. Evocation mages aren't going to be relying on the dc stun, only the damage. That doesnt take into account targets who have displacement, which are most of us in pvp. The spell is worse for shadowmages who mostly dual wield medium weapons and have even lower ab, and because they wont have the spell focuses to take advantage of its dc. The moment the damage becomes unreliable is the moment evocation mages will drop it for their usual.

It has always been more powerful to make a regular mage with SD levels then a shadowmage if your goal is to hips in pvp with mage based damage. These new damage spells wont change that dynamic.

[Sockss]

Evocation direct damage spells are, in general, quite weak. That's a problem with how the spells scale, or rather how they don't and has no real bearing on the topic at hand.

SM had a clear direction of being a different style of caster. It traded significant defense for offense, at least in the current meta (and if you're discounting mind fog -> will save combinations which are very effective made more so with your extra 2dc).

The problem is that with the expanded spell choice, they retain all their cookies while losing a lot less. As you know, regular mages will not use these additions. This is a very transparent and very unneeded SM buff.

A Sorc/Paladin will not use darkbolt spell better (How did you arrive at that conclusion?). A sorc/paladin wouldn't use the spell, anyway.

Most targets don't have displacement in PvP.

Dual wielding has no bearing on touch ab.

It's not at all more powerful to make a regular mage with SD levels. You have less CL making you dispel vulnerable and even less than that if you want discipline, which leads you into natural SR problem territory.