Anti magic fields

[Eters]

It's not me promoting transition abuse. It's just the reality of how fights go. If we are to speak about how this would realistically work we need to discuss it based on how fights actually go. When things go wrong people run to other areas as as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong, I fail to find a ruling on this.) moving from area to another isn't illegal but jumping time and time again through the same 2 transitions is.

A caster's haste will always be longer than a mundane's potioned haste so. It is safe to assume that mobility wise. A caster more often than not has the advantage to a mundane in that regard especially if we speak about a cat and mouse chase. Your haste will run before his.

(Naturally there is many situations where that isn't the case depending on when the mage hasted and when you did and if you are alone or not etc etc..)

I'm not disagreeable to it being a static AoE but I can guarantee that in practical application it will not be very efficient. It will lose that "harrasement" aspect it gets from being a moving aura. Mages also do get tools to slow and delay enemies (which would still work if cast from outside the 10 ft radius) so to say that you have 10 rounds of inaction is wrong. Moving around is not inaction.

If you are a caster and you're constantly super close to melees then you have commited a mistake long before being affected by the AMF.


Now the thing about it being a static targettable field is that, ironically enough, it gives a buff to casters (don't lynch me.) You could effectively timestop, drop an acid fog, a grease, then an AMF on your opponents which would stop them from being able to use the necessary spells to escape that nor the ability to do so. (Unless the AMF also negates area spells). While raining further spells on them from outside it. And I think the purpose of its addition is not that.

[Sockss]

Using arbitrary OOC things that shouldn't necessarily be there (transitions) as any form of combat advantage is not going to be looked on favourably.

(Naturally there is many situations where that isn't the case depending on when the mage hasted and when you did and if you are alone or not etc etc..)

I think you've seen the flaw in your own argument here.

There are many methods in which a character can have long lasting haste (or movement speed). They also only need 10 rounds of haste to gain the maximum advantage from this (and even a smaller amount still offers a significant advantage).

They also don't need haste at all if a caster doesn't have it.

Seeing as using the AMF is a decision of the aggressor, they will only use such when they are able to take advantage of it. Situations that you've described would just be poor-use on their part. (Being able to counter something because someone used it incorrectly is not a counter)

Arelith's initiation rules also amplify this problem.

AND even if you use AMF poorly and force a timestop, or a gsanc, that's still a huge advantage in forcing a long CD ability use.

Re the fixed placement. There would obviously be things to think about and iron out, but it is possible to balance a fixed persistent aoe with these properties much more easily than a moving one. I don't think anyone was suggesting that would be the sole change to make.

[Shadowy Reality]

Scrolls are not even instantaneous. The caster can move just outside range while it is being read and just haste and run away, gscanc timestop or whatever. They might not even need to move and manage to get their own spell off before the scroll effect takes effect if they are fast enough (which should be, considering the endless discussions that were had about countering timestop scrolls with timestop scrolls).

I am of the opinion that this is far from gamebreaking, or even gamechaning. I think it is a cool tool, that is far too rare to be widely used and is maybe of use in very specific and niche situations.

More than that. Even if they get a mage off guard there are ways to get a melee off you. Generally sudden direction changes are going to screw you over and you will cease to be in melee.

[Sockss]

Seeing as using the AMF is a decision of the aggressor, they will only use such when they are able to take advantage of it. Situations that you've described would just be poor-use on their part. (Being able to counter something because someone used it incorrectly is not a counter)

....

AND even if you use AMF poorly and force a timestop, or a gsanc, that's still a huge advantage in forcing a long CD ability use.

Mechanically oblivious players aren't able to take advantage of new things, or use them in the right way. Putting others at more of an advantage than they are at already. As is very obvious from this

[the grim yeeter]

Scrolls are not even instantaneous. The caster can move just outside range while it is being read and just haste and run away, gscanc timestop or whatever. They might not even need to move and manage to get their own spell off before the scroll effect takes effect if they are fast enough (which should be, considering the endless discussions that were had about countering timestop scrolls with timestop scrolls).

Besides it being very ridiculous to say "just react fast enough to escape a 10ft radius within the little time it takes for a scroll's effect to take place lmao", as far as I'm aware, AMF is used with an item rather than a scroll (as is documented in the update thread), which would mean it's instant.

But, let's say it is activated by a scroll: your whole argument is assuming the melee using the AMF doesn't immediately follow you after the scroll has been used (which they should). So say you have Shadowy Reality's godlike reaction speed and you noticed the scroll someone is reading is in fact that of an AMF spell (this is shown in the combat log only at, like, the very last second), you realized that you should run away, you clicked to make it out of the radius in time, ánd you tapped your haste quickslot fast enough, ánd clicked your character in time to cast it on yourself, that melee would've had to literally stand still for you to succeed the entire combination of actions and remain outside of that AMF radius. Additionally, if someone moves while casting a spell from a scroll, it will simply hide the animation of you even reading it, making it even harder to react.

Let's just call it a day, really. Irongron has already spoken and seems determined in his decision. It's not like this discussion is going to change anything.

[Shadowy Reality]

Seeing as using the AMF is a decision of the aggressor, they will only use such when they are able to take advantage of it. Situations that you've described would just be poor-use on their part. (Being able to counter something because someone used it incorrectly is not a counter)

....

AND even if you use AMF poorly and force a timestop, or a gsanc, that's still a huge advantage in forcing a long CD ability use.

You can say that about pretty much everything. Then what is the perfect situation? You are in melee with the mage? Yeah, the mage still gets to do stuff. You are buffed and the mage is not? You have friends and the mage has not? Sure, AMF is useful, but it is the cherry on top of the cake, the mage is most likely dead in those situations anyway.

Besides it being very ridiculous to say "just react fast enough to escape a 10ft radius within the little time it takes for a scroll's effect to take place lmao", as far as I'm aware, AMF is used with an item rather than a scroll (as is documented in the update thread), which would mean it's instant.

If it is indeed an item then yes, it is instant. It is still not as easy as it looks to keep something in range while hitting them. All it takes it a turn and you can never reach them again.

But, let's say it is activated by a scroll: your whole argument is assuming the melee using the AMF doesn't immediately follow you after the scroll has been used (which they should).

Sure, and during those seconds the mage is not standing still. It is either moving away, or it is casting stuff of his own. He can follow all he wants, he will be out of range to do anything.

So say you have Shadowy Reality's godlike reaction speed and you noticed the scroll someone is reading is in fact that of an AMF spell (this is shown in the combat log only at, like, the very last second), you realized that you should run away, you clicked to make it out of the radius in time, ánd you tapped your haste quickslot fast enough, ánd clicked your character in time to cast it on yourself, that melee would've had to literally stand still for you to succeed the entire combination of actions and remain outside of that AMF radius. Additionally, if someone moves while casting a spell from a scroll, it will simply hide the animation of you even reading it, making it even harder to react.

Congratulations, you found the joke. Back when Timestop discussions where a thing many self-proclaimed mechanical aware people said it was fine, you could just counter scroll with scroll, and so it was fine and perfectly balanced. It took years for timestop to work as it works now.
My bigger point is precisely this, it is the people that are more mechanically aware that are always the nay sayers when these updates come out. And it is always made to sound like a server breaking change, the end times. It is not, the meta evolves, some things get better, some things get worse.

It is a cool, thematic, spell, with a niche use in PvP. You really want to kill that mage? You don't need that item, I am sure you can find far more reliable ways to do it. Why are we proposing to castrate this before any of us have even found one of the items, much less see it used in PvP.

[Sockss]

You can say that about pretty much everything. Then what is the perfect situation? You are in melee with the mage? Yeah, the mage still gets to do stuff. You are buffed and the mage is not? You have friends and the mage has not? Sure, AMF is useful, but it is the cherry on top of the cake, the mage is most likely dead in those situations anyway.

The ideal situation are things that enable counterplay and more depth than 'if I use this you can't do anything'.

If a caster is in melee range, it can do something.
If a caster is in a silence aura, it can do something.

If it is indeed an item then yes, it is instant. It is still not as easy as it looks to keep something in range while hitting them. All it takes it a turn and you can never reach them again.

It is incredibly easy. Even for those less mechanically aware.

And even if you would personally find it difficult, you have a whole 10ft radius as a fallback.

Sure, and during those seconds the mage is not standing still. It is either moving away, or it is casting stuff of his own. He can follow all he wants, he will be out of range to do anything.

A caster can't move and cast. That's a huge distance they need to be at, initially, to be at a large enough distance to cast.

Congratulations, you found the joke. Back when Timestop discussions where a thing many self-proclaimed mechanical aware people said it was fine, you could just counter scroll with scroll, and so it was fine and perfectly balanced. It took years for timestop to work as it works now.

Most self-proclaimed mechanically aware people aren't very mechanically aware. (See dispel and the vast majority of balance discussions)

It's a weird equivalency because you can counter a timestop scroll with a scroll, if you have decent reactions and pay attention, it requires 1 button press.
You can't counter AMF if it's used properly, you're proposing not countering it by using a scroll, but rather moving faster than you possibly can and then somehow moving even faster than that to give yourself casting distance.

The timestop change was motivated by reducing shotgun mechanics. (Something that this promotes)

My bigger point is precisely this, it is the people that are more mechanically aware that are always the nay sayers when these updates come out. And it is always made to sound like a server breaking change, the end times. It is not, the meta evolves, some things get better, some things get worse.

Server breaking changes aren't necessarily the death of the server. They're the death of play-styles and diversity.

Comparatively to where we have been, with many changes, there are a very small proportion of viable builds and the gap between their strength and other, not optimal, choices are even larger.

I don't talk about mechanics because I want Arelith to be a perfectly balanced arena server. I talk about mechanics because they're very important for roleplay.

It is a cool, thematic, spell, with a niche use in PvP. You really want to kill that mage? You don't need that item, I am sure you can find far more reliable ways to do it. Why are we proposing to castrate this before any of us have even found one of the items, much less see it used in PvP.

Because it's not fun to be on the receiving end of something you can't do anything about. It's the equivalent of a DM kill button with some extra steps, for a large proportion of characters.

I'm not arguing for my own sake, my current PC would be wildly stronger having one of these. It's just something added with little thought or understanding that will at some point make someone's experience worse.

[Shadowy Reality]

Even if it is an item, let's play it out.

We are face to face. You use your item, I start running. When you start running I am not in melee range. Our speeds are the same, you cannot catch me unless I screw up.

Now you say that if the melee has someone to haste him the mage is definitely dead. And at that point the mage was dead anyway, the other mage can just counterspell stuff, and basically negate every tool the other mage had. The item just makes it slightly easier at the cost of a rare consumable, it doesn't enable the scenario.

[Sockss]

This scenario of 1 minute of running away being acceptable, running away being not debilitating in itself, the presumption of equal speed, the presumption of equal speed = never catching someone and the inability to envision equal group fight scenarios does seem to be the current line in the competency sand.

I often muse on how useless something even less debilitating like curse song is, because of how easy it is to stay out of the radius, or how I can run for 10/100 rounds.

Other times I muse on how useless anything that's not ranged is for the same reasons.

[Shadowy Reality]

Either of us can lag, either of us can take more time loading a transition, either of us can get stuck in some invisible terrain. So for simplicity sake of course we assume same speeds. If you have someone else hasting you, then I can have someone else hasting me, it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

You say it is not acceptable or good design to run away.

Then why is is acceptable to run away when someone drinks a True Strike potion, or when that CoT pops Divine Wrath? I assume most people don't just stand there and take it, and there is not much else you can do besides running, buffing or healing if you have room for that.

[Sockss]

A TS potion doesn't cause the invalidation of class abilities instantaneously.

It also causes an AOO and 1-2 flurries of your enemy(s) hitting you before they run / a round in which you're not putting pressure on a caster.

It has fewer downsides on a ranged character, but you will be trading distance, your opponent can use that or you can avoid by moving out of los. It lasts 1 round, which isn't overly disruptive to combat and has definite risk/reward.

Of course the dynamic works better for melee characters than ranged and I'd certainly change that to make the risks higher for ranged PC's. For melee's it's an ideal risk/reward paradigm.

Wrath doesn't cause the invalidation of class abilities instantaneously.

It's tempered by class investment, carries less risks than TS use but still costs you an action.

These are strong things, but the fundamental difference you've failed to identify is that you can react to any of these things in numerous ways. You can choose to cast, fight, parry, summons, blind etc.

You are not prevented from performing any action in response to these things.
You are not locked out of the fight simply by virtue of being a casting class, or not having important buffs running.

The best response to these would be dependant on a multitude of things. What are you fighting? What is your class? What are the party compositions? What are people doing? Which gives gameplay much more depth.

Movement is important in PvE and PvP. Being forced to run for 1 minute without being able to do anything else is not good design.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Seeing as using the AMF is a decision of the aggressor, they will only use such when they are able to take advantage of it. Situations that you've described would just be poor-use on their part. (Being able to counter something because someone used it incorrectly is not a counter)

....

AND even if you use AMF poorly and force a timestop, or a gsanc, that's still a huge advantage in forcing a long CD ability use.

You can say that about pretty much everything. Then what is the perfect situation? You are in melee with the mage? Yeah, the mage still gets to do stuff. You are buffed and the mage is not? You have friends and the mage has not? Sure, AMF is useful, but it is the cherry on top of the cake, the mage is most likely dead in those situations anyway.

Besides it being very ridiculous to say "just react fast enough to escape a 10ft radius within the little time it takes for a scroll's effect to take place lmao", as far as I'm aware, AMF is used with an item rather than a scroll (as is documented in the update thread), which would mean it's instant.

If it is indeed an item then yes, it is instant. It is still not as easy as it looks to keep something in range while hitting them. All it takes it a turn and you can never reach them again.

But, let's say it is activated by a scroll: your whole argument is assuming the melee using the AMF doesn't immediately follow you after the scroll has been used (which they should).

Sure, and during those seconds the mage is not standing still. It is either moving away, or it is casting stuff of his own. He can follow all he wants, he will be out of range to do anything.

So say you have Shadowy Reality's godlike reaction speed and you noticed the scroll someone is reading is in fact that of an AMF spell (this is shown in the combat log only at, like, the very last second), you realized that you should run away, you clicked to make it out of the radius in time, ánd you tapped your haste quickslot fast enough, ánd clicked your character in time to cast it on yourself, that melee would've had to literally stand still for you to succeed the entire combination of actions and remain outside of that AMF radius. Additionally, if someone moves while casting a spell from a scroll, it will simply hide the animation of you even reading it, making it even harder to react.

Congratulations, you found the joke. Back when Timestop discussions where a thing many self-proclaimed mechanical aware people said it was fine, you could just counter scroll with scroll, and so it was fine and perfectly balanced. It took years for timestop to work as it works now.
My bigger point is precisely this, it is the people that are more mechanically aware that are always the nay sayers when these updates come out. And it is always made to sound like a server breaking change, the end times. It is not, the meta evolves, some things get better, some things get worse.

It is a cool, thematic, spell, with a niche use in PvP. You really want to kill that mage? You don't need that item, I am sure you can find far more reliable ways to do it. Why are we proposing to castrate this before any of us have even found one of the items, much less see it used in PvP.

I still think said item is just a further buff yo spellswords as much as mundanes and even wizards can find niche situations to use. It is undoubtedly a strong spell item. But i agree with your notion the most pvp isnt commited by rare item hoarders. It happens, but it does break the world and our stories dont have to be derailed bt the off chance we are in said incident.

I do think people are underestimating the versatility of this item power beyond shutting just mages down.